Hi all!

Sorry for two things, namely:

a) reviving a thread whose last post is almost three weeks old, but I didn't feel like starting a new one with little new info

b) not being around lately and most of all posting my thing without taking the time to read all the other threads that have popped up since my last visit. I am really extremely busy at the moment, because I have to "buy" two weeks of holidays as I am off to Russia on Friday morning.

Here we go with the latest bit of news: I have been to Graz on a wedding and had the time to visit the store I didn't last time (Klavierhaus Fiedler). Among others, they have an August Förster 190 that simply is to die for. I am heavily tempted, to say the least... the sound is even sweeter than on the others I've tried, it sings like a nightingale!

But I kept myself from rushing things, as my flight goes early Friday morning and therefore I will stay in Munich overnight. I will drop by Piano Fischer to try the Grotrian Steinweg 192 once again and then, over the two weeks in Russia, I will see if this "first love" will calm down.

The problem is that I can't just drop by in the store to play it again, as it is a five hours drive... even worse: should I decide to buy it, I have to wait at least until Christmas before I can play it, as my new home won't be ready before that

Thanks for the update, vippo. I actually like you keeping your search in one thread so that it's easy to go back and see your earlier impressions.

Keep in mind that every piano is different, so if this one particular AF 190 keeps haunting you, it may be worth your effort to make a return visit as soon as you can so that it doesn't get sold out from under you.

Interesting and entertaining thread. Just wondering though.... how much does the room, furnishings, etc affect the sound? What about the way each piano was setup - how much does that affect the result? Isn't it sort of dangerous to generalize an entire brand or model based on a sample of one?

Verdi,

You bring up some VERY GOOD Questions. Many have been discussed before but hey, there is nothing wrong with discussing them again. Might I suggest started a new THREAD with these concerns? I think it would be of value to those who are now reading.

My quick anwers would be: Yes, rooms and furnishings make a difference. Placement in the room makes a difference. And each piano has its own personality. And good techs can do wonders. :-)

I'll contribute more (as I am sure others will) when you start a new thread!

LL

Good morning World,

I really need to update you about my last journeys…

On Saturday I went in Brixen in order to try the AF190, that Vippo already tried.
Vippo is remarkably right: the August Foerster is a great piano (the only piano in my short trip that has 3 strings in the upper notes of the bass section).
The tone is not too bright, not too mellow; the volume is perfect for a domestic use.
I agree with Vippo about the wall effect in the Fortissimo… therefore the dynamic range is not the best ever.
Controllable the mechanics, without running for the first prize: if you ask for “value-for-money”, the AF, I think, is a valuable choice.
I tried to compare it (with the help of my memory) with the Grotrian, and I have to admit that I still prefer the Grotrian. BUT I’m not so able to explain why… matter of taste regarding the tone, brilliance and power.

Afterwards I went (it was the second time) to Bergamo, to play again the Bosie CS200. What a piano!! The only drawback is the treble section that is not able to emerge with that powerful and beautiful bass. Also the control is incredibly precise. After playing this, I discovered why I was not enthusiastic with the AF: the control, the precision of the touch, the powerfulness of the bass of the boesendorfer is a step forward (but you have to pay for it). Finally rejected.

On Sunday I took the airplane and I flied to Braunschweig… where finally I saw Grotrian plants. I’ve been sightseeing the factory and I’ve played a 192, a 208, three 225 and one 277. The most impressive thing (not necessarily in positive) was the great difference between pianos of the same type, in particular the three 225s: one was very very mellow, one other a bit hard, in particular in the treble, and a third was quite in the middle (the best of the three, in my humble opinion). Also the touch was different (two were soft in touch, one was incredibly hard): this because of the different starting point of the run of the dumpers (the two soft touch pianos had the dumpers starting to move at half run of the key; the hard piano had dumpers starting to move immediately with the first run of keys).
The 208 model is generally softer in touch than 225 in terms of key weight (it’s matter of factory choice), but gap in length is apparent. This gap is visible in particular when you play fortissimo: in this condition the 225 is much more similar to the 277 than to the 208. On the other hand the best pianissimo (low volume in perfect control) owns probably to the 208 (but the difference is less visible than in the fortissimo).
On the other side, the 208 was much more consistent with the 208 in tried before in Turin, but, you know, there are 1500km (and three weeks) of distance between the two and who really knows whether I’m right or not!!

For make it short: I really liked the 225, even if I was tremendously hesitant about my final decision between the sweat 208 and the aggressive 225… (by the way, in the early stage of my trial I rejected the 277, since it’s really one step further the 225 in terms of loudness, and a couple further the 208).

Generally speaking I think the 225 is a bit more Grotrian Sound (very “plucky” in the bass, clear in pinpointing every single note, powerful the bass, exceptional the treble and well balanced the ensemble). The 208 is a bit softer in touch, a bit less plucky in the bass, a bit less powerful generally speaking: anyway very well balanced as well.

My final decision, since my sitting room is quite big (55 square meter), was the 225…

225

really, I took my decision! finish.

Am I right, or wrong?

The drawback of a piano search like this is that at the end you are probably unable to be sure of your final choice, even if you tried a lot. You definitely know that what you’re buying is not bad, but you have to accept the feeling that probably next month, out of the same factory, a new 225, perhaps better than mine, will exit, or that, probably, the Bosie 225 (that I didn’t tried) would have been a better choice… it’s like a schizophrenia!!! the research of an idea, more than a real object.
As often stated, the perfect piano doesn’t exist and I will have to be satisfied by my future piano that is the best piano I ever tried (according to my opinion and taste!!) (and except some concert 272, 277, 278… you know what I mean).

That said, I remark: I don’t have many doubts (perhaps some are between 208, 225, 277, and some other less intense (because of the money) between Fazioli (the other incredible piano I tried during my journey!!) and Grotrian). Those are only statements regarding our limitedness: I’m neither able to choose a piano after 5 months of research!!

but the choice is made. I’ll post the picture of the move..

ciao

Federico

Congratulations on your decision and your new piano! Although the process of looking and trying is fun, I think we all want to have a piano in our home that we can play all the time so we must eventually decide! From what you've written, it sounds like you made a great decision. Could you find a better piano if you were willing to search forever? Maybe. Maybe not.

Can't wait to see the pictures and, once again, congratulations!

Federico
I've had the chance to play the new Grotrian 208 and my impression was similar to yours especially about the lighter key weight. Overall I really liked it. Sitting next to it was a sold Grotrian 225 with a tone a bit on the mellower side and I have to say that would still be my first choice. More powerful bass of course than the 208 but a beautiful singing treble. Great choice on your part selecting the Grotrian 225. Congratulations.

Rich

Congratulations, Federico!

Let me be the first to welcome you to the "Grotrian 225 Club". That was the model that stole my heart. Actually, I had my eye more on the 277, but I had a size constraint to work with...

Nevertheless, I couldn't be more pleased. The 225 fulfils my musical expectations, and often surpasses them.

Such good news deserves its own thread, rather than being buried on page 8 of Vippo's thread. Would you consider starting a new thread when you post your pictures?

Looking forward to seeing those photos.

Also, thanks for the fascinating account of your experiences. I was particularly interested in hearing your impressions of the new 208, especially as it relates to the 225.

Is it possible Grotrian did that on purpose? As these were pianos for sampling it would make sense, to give an idea of the range of possibilities in prep work.

You know[/b] the answer to that! I think that feeling of being unsure about your purchase is common to most people who buy a really high-end piano. When you get to that level, the difference between pianos can be very small and you are left only with an emotional response.

You have to let go of all those other pianos, and enjoy THE ONE you have.

If after a while you find you miss the shopping experience, there is always Piano World Forums!

Congrats Federico ! I can understand your feelings about the run up to and making the final decision. I would be interested to know what type of engineer you are. It is interesting to know that Vippo is also an engineer. Very analytical lot those engineers. Sometimes we drive ourselves crazy with the technical stuff but then get paralyzed when it comes time to pull the trigger.

Oh - I almost forgot to tack onto what whippen boy said regarding the setup spread of the pianos... they do the same thing with tv's in the store - may set up several of the same model with different color characteristics. That way they cover the bases. Sound / touch like color perceptions is such a personal and undefined thing.

In the "old days" when tv was first coming out sylvania did a double blind study regarding tv color setup. I can't quote the numbers but the preponderance of the data showed the people did not prefer tv's that were setup technically correctly regarding color. People in different geographic regions prefer different colors and saturations. When I worked for kodak it used to drive them nuts that people preferred fuji film to the more "technically correct" kodak film. It seems that Japanese people prefer more saturated colors. Also seems that many American people do too !

Hi all!

Back from Russia and what an experience it was!

But back to the topic, Verdi brought up a very important side of the discussion, which I did not tackle as I have no experience at all with room acoustics. I just limited myself in stating if the room was particularly live or dead.

Well, and as for Sigaretta's choice: WOW! Congratulations, a great choice! Waiting for your own thread with the pics of the move!!! I feel very much the same way about the 208 VS the 225, but for those reasons I like the 208 better.

P.S.: Verdi, I like Fuji better, too... WAY better

Vippo,
I'm curious, in all your piano-travels, have you considered going up to a concert grand? I started off in the 6'4" range (190?), then 7' (208?), then 228, etc. Then last week I played the most wonderful concert grand; delicate control, ppp to FFFFFF (if there is such a thing), bell-like treble, and a deep growling bass, with a sustain that goes on forever.... I wonder if our comparison of similar sized pianos of different brands (in the same category) are all considering various subtle distinctions, whereas the really big differences are noticeable as you change size? Esp. given comments elsewhere about a 9' piano as the 'ideal' size from an engineering perspective, which I am starting to appreciate...

Hello Vippo, Verdi, Sigaretta and all,

My search for the ideal piano was not as long as yours (about 4 months), but it did not take too long for me to realize that there is no such thing as the ideal piano. There is only the best compromise possible.

My compromise landed me where I definitely did not expect it. I bought a Shigeru Kawai SK-6 two weeks ago.

Before that, I had been dancing between an August Forster 215, a Sauter Omega, a Grotrian 225 and, as ultimate compromises, a large-size Weber and a Pramberger.

The AF 215 was definitely my first pick, essentially because of its unequaled bass. But only one half of the piano pleased me. The other half caused me trouble no end, mainly because of the too high brilliance.

This was my main concern with all other European pianos: their brilliance that I find often excessive. Exploring lower-level pianos like the Weber and the Pramberger, I came to realize that I very much liked a mellower tone such as you often find in a Steinway or a Mason & Hamlin.

I had already tried two large Shigerus (SK-6 and SK-7) in New York. At that moment, I was so wrapped up in European pianos that I simply did not take notice. They seemed somewhat bland to me.

Then I tried another SK-6 in Montreal, at Italmelodie. That did it. I suddenly realized that what I had taken for blandness was in fact a new quality in piano sound: velvet! Most pianos in the Steinway or M&H category that offer a soft sound also have a somewhat muffled quality to them. And their outstanding quality, I would way, is mellowness, rather than velvetyness.

The Shigeru is so velvety, it is like musical cream. This is especially true across the whole tenor and lower treble region where most music is played. And it remains so in the bass and the upper treble.

And the action is splendid. Somewhat on the light side, but very responsive and precise. Many competing salespeople will downgrade the Shigeru saying that it has "plastic" action parts. Well, it's not quite "plastic", it's carbon composite and it produces a very stable and sensitive keyboard.

The only slight drawback I found is a sustain that is a ww-bit short, but it is slowly developing and growing in response to my playing.

All in all, with every other piano I tried I was always thinking of what I would ask the technician to correct: voicing here, regulation there, a little more voicing, and so on. And since no regulation and voicing holds for very long, I would be married to my technician.

Well I liked the Shigeru as is: no particular voicing or regulation required. I had this "as is" satisfaction only with the very best regulated and adjusted Steinway Concert Ds I've had occasion to try. But they were way out of my price range. Then comes along the Shigeru that offers me the same experience. I jumped on it.

If you have occasion to try a Shigeru, you know what my recommendation is. To put you in appetite, I invite any of you to visit the Shigeru Kawai Web site and the Kawai US site. I've read dozens of piano documents from manufacturers, but none had one outstanding quality of Shigeru Kawai's: with its talk of honor, passion and soul, it was inspiring. Not just informative or interesting, inspiring!

Hi Vippo: Many many thanks to you and others for such a fascinating thread. I'm curious to know if your "if I win a lottery jackpot" list has changed. The last version contained the following:

• Fazioli F212
• Steingräber 205
• Steinway C
• Bösendorfer 225
• Fazioli F-183
• Steinway B

Where in that list would the Grotrian 208 fit?

Well, the Grotrian Charis is not on the "lottery jackpot" list, because it is within reach for remotely human budgets... but I would rank it between the Steinway B and the Fazioli F-185.

The Steingräber might have slipped a little, but I don't remember the S&S C well enough to sort of rerate it... in the last three months I have mainly concentrated on those pianos which I can afford.

it is still just a little too early to tell, but a decision is imminent... I just have to wait for tomorrow morning and then -once a decision has been taken- I would like to inform in person the many many extremely corteous salespeople who offered me the possibility to try all those wonderful pianos. I would like them to possibly read about my decision here before I tell them.

Coming soon...

Talk about a cliffhanger!!!

Can't wait to find out what you end up opting for.

I predict that vippo will stretch his budget for a F183. Just a gut feel, ya know.

go Grotrian go

Very many congratulations Sigaretta!

And, like others, I have been rather gripped by this thread and very much look forward to your final decision vippo.

Hi Vippo welcome to the forum and although this post is old, I still need to comment.

First of all I'd like to tell you that I'm jealous not of your piano purchase but that you live in Italy. I lived in Napoli for 3 years and I get depressed everytime I think of Italy. I want to live there again but my husband and I are doing the next best thing, hopefully visiting for a couple weeks next year.

Now, your posts are extremely entertaining, you have me riveted.

I wish you the best of luck in finding the piano that'll make you happy, your perseverance will pay off. Bravo!!!

Sigaretta -- hearty congratulations on your new piano!

Laurentyan -- hearty congratulations to you as well!

I will likely visit Montreal (and possibly Quebec city as well) near the end of August. Might you have any recommendation for piano-related site of interests (e.g. piano/keyboard museums, piano shops, etc.) that a tourist/piano enthusiast can visit?

I love the thread, and wish my piano search were as extensive as yours! I'm particularly enjoying all the comments on the AF190, as I've recently discovered them for my first time and would like to toss in my impression also.
I went to Ori's place (highly recommended BTW) and played the M&H, Bluthners, Bosies, Estonia & AF's. The AF's really stole my heart too, even before I realized they were less expensive than all but the Estonia. The 215 certainly was a racehorse (someone's previous comment) but I liked the AF190 very much :3hearts: . More balanced and more likely to fit in my living room. The clarity was astonishing yet it maintained character & color. A rare combination. This one was voiced such there was not a touch of harshness in the treble. I'm positive I would have noticed. For the record, had I noticed, I would have taken a lack of ffff as a positive feature.
I have some tinitus and find loud harsh tones more than annoying. When Ori played one of his bigger (215-ish?) Bosies and I was 5 ft away I loved it. But when I sat down and was playing, all that bell-like beautiful sound just got inside my head and echoed around until I couldn't hear what I was doing. I "didn't understand" what I heard in the Bluthners well enough to comment intelligently. So perhaps I'm a less refined listener, but I can understand why someone would choose an AF over the super high-end Germans even if price weren't the issue.

After the AF, I felt the M&H AA seemed a little unrefined (to be fair, I think it was a new arrival still in need of some TLC!). The Estonia 190 sounded quite nice, a great value, but was only one or two pianos away from the AF190, so I couldn't stay long.
Great luck and thanks for the fantastic thread. Keep it coming!

Soooo.... I think you've waited more than enough now, but I simply HAD to tell some people in person...

The highlight of my new home will be the absolutely gorgeous August Förster AF-190 #164163 I tried near the end of April at Klavierhaus Fiedler in Graz.

I had to rush the decision a bit because another person was interested in this piano and then I was made an offer I couldn't refuse, so I decided that this was definitely the one I would deeply regret letting slip away. It was as much a money decision as it was a musical one.

For the former, the interest rates keep rising and rising, so I have to keep an eye on the expenses, like it or not, and the Förster really comes at a killer price.

For the latter, this particular instrument stands heads and shoulders above the other AF190 I have tried in terms of richness of the sound and singing quality. As I wrote in April, if the others are cute, this one is to die for. The bass is even richer than on the others, while the treble is a little sweeter. Maybe I will have it voiced down even a little more, but first I want to hear it in my future livingroom.

And since I noticed that the Försters I tried differed significantly from one to the next, I convinced myself that I just could not let this one go!

The only real alternative which I still like even better than "my" AF was the Grotrian-Steinweg Charis (208 cm or 7ft-ish), which however sits well above the AF190 price-wise. The Cabinet (192 cm or 6'4") is also a very nice piano, but I like the AF better and it comes at a much lower price to boot.

Trouble is, delivery will only take place in January, maybe even in February because my new home will be finished only then (before Christmas is getting more and more improbable) and as of now I have absolutely no place where to put it. The waiting is getting hard already...

I want to thank you all for the extremely helpful tips and informations which were of vital importance during my journey.

AND: many many many thanks to all the super-kind salespeople who endured my pestering and playing for many many hours during the last six months. I won't list them all, if you read my thread, you will find them all anyways. They were incredibly kind and forthcoming, a big big thank you to all!

P.S. Michael, if you are still around, I knew it already then that you probably had it right

Congratulations. Yours is one of the few "journey" stories I really enjoyed. Many years of happiness with it.

Derick

Congratulations! Fabulous thread. I have absolutely no experience of August Förster but, given the way you have written all this up, I am very keen to play one (or hear one) as soon as possible. Perhaps, when you eventually have it delivered to your new home, you could put some pics and a recording (or several) on PWF?

Thanks to all those who contributed to this thread. It has been very educational to a 'newbie' just embarking on my own grand piano search. And congratulations on your final decision-- may you have years of piano playing enjoyment.

Vippo - This is the end of an "era" for Piano World. Living vicariously thorugh your travelog and piano auditioning has been a treat.
May you and your AF have a fine life together!

Congratulations - you're chosen a great piano - much joy to you.

Thanks for the congratulations, I have absolutely no doubt that this piano will give me countless hours of enjoyment!

Pictures are sure to follow once it has been set up, those which I took of my darling aren't as good as the ones I've posted of another AF190, but it doesn't look all that different

I have already spent a few thoughts about recording my music, but I have to read through the numerous threads about it and then buy the equipment. And last but not least, I have to polish up my repertoire...

Thank you all for those huge compliments... *blushes*

P.S.: I think I have to change my signature now into one of those fancy "Model XY Serial No. 123456" ones

Congratulation. What a fun shopping journey! How many countries did you end up going through? I loss tracked. Now the suspense is over. I shall miss reading more of your shopping experience and description of all the various pianos that you encounter.