First of all, I'd like to say hello to you all! I've been around for some three months now reading with great interest. The quality of the majority of the posts finally led me to join the forum, even though I'm not a huge poster. But as they say, you never know...

I will (hopefully) be moving into my brand new apartment in a drop-dead beautiful rebuilt 1930ies- villa around this time next year and it wouldn't be complete without my lifelong dream, a grand piano. Since I probably will go bankrupt because of the mortgage for the apartment alone, I thought I might as well do it with a new grand piano

As I live in the northernmost part of Italy, I may have as large a choice of dealers available within 400 km as one might find. I just embarked on my journey and have already become addicted, so here we go:

My first visit was at my piano technician's workshop in Bozen on the 5th of January. Although he has a miniscule shop, he was so kind to pull out one of his rental Kawai RX-3 to let me play it, as I started out with a budget around the list price of an RX-2. It is a used instrument of about two years, but well maintained. After playing my favourite testing pieces, the first movement of Beethoven's Sonata op. 27 #2 and Schubert's Impromptus in E-flat, Op. 90, along with some others, I found my memories of Kawai to be correct: very good action, nice tone, but blurring a little bit in the section between c' and c'''. My impression of the built was "cost conscious", but ok.

Two weeks ago I have been to Passadori Pianoforti in Brescia. There I was able to test-play a Hamburg Steinway C (way over budget, but just to try it), Boston GP-193, Yamaha C3 and Kawai RX-3.

The mandatory Sonata, which revealed a very balanced tone with a superbly singing treble and effortless control even without "warming up", was followed by the finale of the Rhapsody in Blue. The power of the bass almost made me fall off the chair, I didn't remember it as powerful even on the D in the Graz University of Music, where I played the Rhapsody during a Class Recital (no, I didn't study piano, but I had the opportunity to take lessons there for 3 years during my studies).

Then I switched to the Boston GP-193. The touch was markedly heavier and the sound more muffled, but with a surprisingly powerful and growling bass. The Schubert Impromptus would not come out as brillant as I'd liked, the notes blurring just like on the Kawai I tried in Bozen.

Switching to the Yamaha C3, I tried Debussy's Clair de Lune and it wouldn't sing... on top of that, the action seemed poorly regulated, because it felt like it had lost motion at the beginning of the stroke. I was disappointed, because I had good memories of the G-something I used to play on during my classes in Graz, but I remember trying out side-by-side a rebuilt G3 and a new C3 at a technician's workshop in Graz and the C didn't appeal to me even then.

Then, I switched to the RX-3 and my first impression of it was confirmed: nice action, but blurring sound, missing a clearly defined attack.

Then I went back to the Steinway D, as none of the other instruments could really catch me. I played Liszt's Liebestraum in A flat, a longer section of the Rhapsody in Blue, Schubert Impromptus in A flat (Op. 90 #4) and F minor (Op. 142 #1) and some others and really liked it. The longer I played though, the heavier I found the touch. It felt almost a little bit too heavy.

Finally, I switched back to the Boston and came to the conclusion that it wasn't for me. The bass was too heavy, while the middle section doesn't come through enough, I missed a defined attack sound, just as on the Kawai.

Then I had to leave, but not before having another short chat with one of the Passadoris, of whom I met three and all are very nice gentlemen who gave me a very warm welcome.

I had a visit to two Munich shops yesterday, but I'll report later on, as I'm starving right now and I have truckloads of impressions to share with you. I'm very pleased to have joined your family!

Welcome to the forum, vippo, and thank you for the entertaining post.

...but considering the pianos you've tried and liked best so far, you may need to change that "affordable" phrase in your signature line!

What about a S-P?

They're built in Italy, and they make a pretty decent grand.

Welcome vippo! Very interesting reading about your piano search. You're definitely going about it the right way, taking your time and playing a wide selection.

Good luck and keep us updated on your progress.

Thank you for your kind welcome!

Monica: I already found out that at this point the best financing scheme is probably a winning tip in the lottery... I "have been forced" to try Faziolis yesterday :rolleyes:

Jolly: I read good things about Schulze-Pollmann both in Fine's book and on this Forum. They are definitely on my must-try-list.

Now that I have relaxed and eaten something, I have the strength to continue my post. As I said, yesterday I have been to Munich because I had to bring my girlfriend to the airport... she has left for an exchange semester in Nizhnij Novgorod and is staying there for five months... but after witnessing my growing addiction, she wasn't all that unhappy to leave until I've cooled down to some extent...

I had taken the day off work, and the flight was scheduled for 8:25, so prepare for a long read... :rolleyes:

I have been to Piano Fischer first, who, as mjs already posted, have a large selection of fine grands in their showroom. After trying out the C. Bechstein 160, I worked my way up through Bechstein Academy Series, from 160 over 190, 208 to 228, strictly playing the 1st movement of the Sonata op. 27 No.2 on each model.

The C. Bechstein 160 was very beautiful in tone and action, the action being somewhat on the lighter side, but still precise. For such a small piano it sounded really good, although on the brighter side.

The Academy models at first looked to fulfill the promise. The action was very good throughout, and the bass had a full sound. The melody effortlessly sang very clearly over the rest of the chords in the sonata, with the strong bass filling in beautifully.

Then I switched to the Grotrian-Steinweg Cabinet 192... At first, having played the very light Bechstein actions, I found it difficult to control the stroke, and attributed it to the piano. I couldn't find the touch for the very light chords at the beginning of the movement, finding the action to be too heavy and unprecise.

I quickly changed to the Yamaha C5, only to be disappointed again. The tone was ok, but nothing special, and the action was showing the same lost motion at the very beginning of the stroke, which I found on the C3 I tried at Passadori's shop in Brescia. Could it be that two different models from two different dealers are badly prepped, despite all other pianos are in good to perfect shape in both stores? Has somebody else experienced this on the Yamahas?

I switched back to the Bechstein Acandemy 228, trying the E-flat Impromptus Op. 90, which brought to my ears what had escaped them in the p and pp sections of the Beethoven sonata: when playing mf and louder, their tone from g' upwards was, as someone already pointed out, fingernails-on-blackboard-territory. In my mind I had already imagined how the Bechstein 228 would fit into my still only imaginary living room, because budget-wise the 228 would be in the "i could try to live on dry bread and water for two years" range...

Somewhat disappointed, I went back to the Grotrian Cabinet, and playing the Impromptus -oh wonder- the instrument suddenly was a completely different story. I tried some other pieces, and the more I got used to the Grotrian, the more I appreciated its qualities: full and round bass without being too preeminent, although a bit on the weaker side, and a generally unassuming tone with a treble which is beautifully singing and crystal clear, but yet warm and without any disturbing brightness. By switching back and forth between the Grotrian Cabinet and the Bechstein 228 I came to appreciate the former more and more, even with it missing come 30 cm... Everything came out better and easier the more I played.

Then, after somewhat like the fourth coffee offered by Mr. Ropertz, I entered the "Grail Hall"... I heard and read both raving and not-even-lukewarm reviews of the Faziolis, but what I played in there was nothing short of sensational. I'm not talking about the monstrous F-308, of which one rightly expects perfection, but instead, I started on the F-183. One might like or dislike the tone, even if for a 183 cm or 6' grand it is phenomenal, but THE ACTION.... this has got to be the most precise and perfectly balanced action one is about to find. It allows for absolutely perfect control even in "ppppp" passages, the single tones of an arpeggio each sounding like waterdrops, but nonetheless smoothly blending into each other. It really takes the fun out of playing loudly!

The I spent about half an hour on the F-308, and what can I say... the bass is among the most powerful and at the same time unassuming I heard; it has few harmonics and makes your belly vibrate with the sound, it growls and at the same time doesn't overwhelm the melody. Surprisingly, the F-212 has a very similar sound, an absolute astonishing bass, almost identical in sound to that of the F-308. It is much different from the F-183, which reminded me a little bit of the Grotrian, although much more powerful. But the F-212, while sounding smaller, had almost the same sound quality as it's huge brother. It really has been an overwhelming experience, which could lead to my financial undoing if somehow I find the even remotest possibility of bringing together such huge amounts of money. Fortunately, this will not be the case, but nonetheless, I feel in danger right now...

But what I liked best was that after returning directly to the Grotrian from the F-212, I expected some disappointment, but instead was positively surprised. While not as precise as the Fazioli action, the Grotrian more than held it's own in this unfair comparison, since the F-212 costs more than double the price of the Grotrian, which on top is 20 cm shorter.

Then, after spending more than four hours at Piano Fischer, my stomach was trying to get something by itself and dragged my out of the door and into a restaurant...
[to be continued]

After a good lunch in the heart of Munich, I visited Piano Hirsch, where I tried, in this sequence, Sauter Alpha, Bösendorfer 190 and 200, the Blüthner 4 (190 cm), Shigeru Kawai SK-III and finally, Bösendorfer 225, playing my "test repertoire" of Beethoven Op. 27-2, Impromptus E-flat, A-flat and f-minor, as well as Clair de Lune and some passages of the Rhapsody in Blue. (I'm trying to cut short a little, don't panic )

The Sauter Alpha is a really impressive instrument for being only 160 cm. The bass naturally is not as well rounded, but still powerful, while the treble is warm and not excessively bright. It really has left me salivating for the Delta or perhaps even the Omega. The acoustic of the place they stuck it in were terrible, so it definitely should only get better. I am attributing a considerable amount of the percieved brightness to the bad acoustics, because it was stuffed into a jutty (right word? taken out of the vocabulary...) where the windows are reflecting the sound right into your face.

Then the Bösendorfers, and, well, they sounded and felt just as one knows them... although I hate to say it, I am missing a little bit of brilliance, while the melodies seem to come by themselves. In this price range, in my taste, for what it's worth, they are no match for Fazioli. The acoustic in this room was not what one would call ideal, so that might add to it, but still I knew it from the Bösendorfers I had heard. (Please don't hit me, and if you really have to, please don't make it hurt too much...)

I have been really looking forward to the Blüthner, only to find it too bright for my taste. The action was also not my cup of tea, although I couldn't really tell what was "wrong"... perhaps I was just tired, but something was missing. It was light and yet precise, but I couldn't find the feeling for it, although I played a fair amount of music on it.

Then forward to the Shigeru Kawai SK III... it was -as it should be- another world from the RX-3s I tried, but I expected more. The feel of the keys were like they are of plastic, and the sound was somewhat academic, even though I couldn't find out what I missed. Perhaps it is that the sound doesn't change as you play louder, but it is just like turning up the volume with the exactly same waveform, as someone suggested in another post.

After some seven hours of playing (my fingers still hurt ), listening and comparing, my back, fingers, ears and brain were praying for a break. BUT... I had to play the Bösendorfer 225 they had in the entrance hall, which made up for the -expected- "disappointment" of the 185 and 200. Maybe it is voiced a little bit brighter?

Thank you for your patience, but I warned you and you certainly have something to write about after seven hours comparing pianos...

More! More! What a great read! I felt like I was there trying them with you (I wish!). Thanks so much for taking the time to write out your experiences and impressions of what sounds like some pretty great pianos.

Thanks for your extremely entertaining post. My own impressions of the Sauter Alpha and Shigeru SK3, although I had a somewhat more positive impression of the Bosendorfer 200.

If possible, you should try the larger models of the Sauter and Shigeru Kawai. They're really significant (I would say massive) improvements from their smaller cousins. Sauter Delta has quite a completely different tonal character from the Alpha, and one of the most impressive bass response for a piano of that size. That said, individual models have their own unique character - some Deltas are warm, bold and powerful, others (like mine), are crystal clear and delicate, but still powerful when needed. One major factor that pushed me to by the Delta was the wide range of timbres that are possible with different touches and with the una corda - something I could not find in almost all other pianos I tried.

Shigeru SK-5 has impressive power in the bass, and to my ears, a somewhat brighter, and more ideal treble. I still have favourable impressions of that plastic action feel you talk about - certainly very very easy to execute runs and trills on it. I would rank the Shigeru's SK-5 action as easy to play as a Hamburg B I tried yesterday. I do however agree about the tonal colour not changing with the volume, which is something I appreciate on the Sauter. But for some players, that is not a problem.

I know the feeling.

I succumbed .

Best wishes,
Matthew

That's the great thing about Grotrian.

The sell for about 1/2 price......

Norbert

I enjoyed vicariously!

What's next?

LL

Yes, it's great fun reading about your shopping adventures.

Can I ask about the apartment you'll be moving to? What's the room layout where you'd be placing the grand like? You're trying out a wide range of sizes; do you have a target length in mind?

Thanks for the great reviews.
Since you are in Italy, will you be trying out Borgato-a brand which I don't think the great majority of us has even the remotest chance of seeing it?
LUIGI BORGATO, as introduced in the website, has "designed, patented and built a new instrument, the “DOPPIO BORGATO”, the first double concert-grand piano with pedalboard" and "Inspired by an idea of Beethoven *, Borgato builds his concert-grand pianos BORGATO L 282 with four strings struck per note in the 44 keys of the upper register of the keyboard (design patent BORGATO)".
(website address: http://www.borgato.it/main_uk.htm)
It should be a very exciting experience for you and a highly enriching one for us all.

Awaiting you good news!

Oh, yes, I forgot to tell you two of the most basic things... how comes that you can't read my mind?

@ Monica: My future living room will be 21,3 m² (4,7 x 4,5 m), which equals 15'5" x 14'7". It will contain mainly the piano, a sofa and a huge bookshelf. The piano will be placed on the left of the door alongside an internal wall (South-North orientation), with the back end on a (very thick, massive brick wall) external wall on the south end of the room. On the south and west walls there will be windows, far enough from the piano, under which the sofa will be placed, facing the bookshelf which prbably will cover the whole north-side internal wall. I have the advantage to be able to divide the rooms according to my preferences and the piano always has been one of the top priorities

My target size (depending on the sound of the piano) is between 6' and 7' (180 - 220 cm).

Of the brands and models on my lists, my rankings are as follows (please bear in mind that at this stage I haven't considered anything regarding the build of the pianos. Not sure though if it matters all that much in the quality range I seem to end up, since everyone of those makers should know how to build a piano):

- "Papabili" (strongest candidates of those tried out):
Grotrian Steinweg Cabinet (190 cm)
(follow huge void)
Kawai RX-3 (barely escapes the discarded list because of the price...)

- Tried and discarded (in no particular order)
Yamaha C3, C5
Bechstein Academy Series
Blüthner 4 (forgive me)
Bösendorfer 185 and 200 (forgive me even more)
Shigeru Kawai SK III

- Tried and on the shortlist in case of a lottery jackpot
Fazioli F-212
Steinway C
Bösendorfer 225
Fazioli F-185

- Still to try and located a dealer
August Förster 190 and 215
Sauter Delta, Omega
Steingräber 205
Schulze-Pollmann
Rieger Kloss (Bohemia) Janacek and Smetana

- Want to try, but can't find a dealer
Grotrian Charis and Concert (latter might be a bit steep)
Shigeru higher than SK III
Estonia
Mason and Hamlin
Yamaha S

As for the Borgato, the next time I am near Vicenza (which is quite often) and have the time (not so often...) I will try to visit the Borgato factory, even if it is nowhere near my target in size and price.

If someone has addresses where I should go, please post them or PM me! Any input is greatly appreciated!

I plan two or three trips that will lead me to Jaecklin in Zurich as well as to some dealers in the northern Italian region and in Austria sometime during the next two months. Not sure though that I can stand the wait to try out new pianos any longer than two weeks...

Thank you for your encouraging replies, I was afraid to bore you to death with my long posts...

vippo, very interesting report. your approach is as it should be, concentrating on the instruments virtues, not the name.

The Sauter factory is I believe less than 2 hours or so from Zurich.

Also, not bored at all.

Well, you might want to try the Steingraeber 168 and 290. I wouldn't be surprised if they did well in your survey.

vippo,

Thanks for taking the time to let us know what you've experienced. I hope you find an instrument to make you happy!

And Ken, is that squirrel playing the harmonica?!

Vippo,

I'd recommend that you try the Sauter Omega before you finally make a choice.
EJ Sauter has taken some good images of his Sauter Omega, and it clearly is a very well made instrument. EJ Sauter's images of his Omega can be found at;
http://www.sauter-pianos.com/Pictures-Pianos.htm

With a 23 note bass, this piano has a good contemporary scale. Various other manufacturers continue to build 7 foot class instruments with 20 and 19 note basses, but they are old world scales, and suffer from inferior tuning stability and a lack of imedance and inharmonicity balance across the break, when compared to the latest generation of 7 foot scales. So I'd strongly recommend that you have a good look at the Omega.

I haven't seen the latest versions of Grotrian's 7 foot instrument, so I am unable to comment on them, but they received some good reports on various internet forums following the recent NAMM show. But again, I'd start by looking at the cross over point. Any 7 foot instrument with less than 23 bass notes would be off my list.

Best regards,
Ron O.

Bosendorfer model 214 also has a 23 note bass.

Borgato address is Pianoforte,Via S. D'Agquostp, 20-1 Casalserugo,13550, Padova, Italy

I know for sure, when I do upgrade, a Sauter Omega will definitely be on the top of my short list, followed probably by a Grotrian, and maybe a Shigeru SK-6! If the Omega is on your short list, it would be advisable to pay a direct visit to the factory in Spaichingen. But do give them a call first - in case there are no specimens available to try. You might also be interested to know that the Sauter factory allows you to have a piano customised to your specific needs, if you are willing to wait around 6 months or so. That will be the option I will probably be going for.

You might need a trip to USA for the Estonias and MH's. I know of a couple of dealers that carry both though...and we have PIANO PARTIES here!

LL

I know that I'm always accused of being biased,etc but here's the beef:

Outside of Hamburg Steinway, every German piano is and has always been available to me to become dealers for.

After visiting virtually every manufacturer in Germany over the years,meeting the people in charge and play each and every one of their pianos, my choice was clear:

Grotrian and Sauter.

Or example, the new Grotrian 208 Charis is a piano to be experienced to be believed.

Norbert

Vippo,

I'm coming a little late to this party, but I really enjoyed reading through your experiences.

Some comments, in no particular order.

First, you might want to PM Michael B (AKA PoStTeNeBrAsLuX). He knows good dealers in his part of Switzerland. You can play more Faziolis and Grotrians and Steinways etc etc there.

Next, as an owner of a Grotrian 192 I may not have full credibility, but I would agree with you that you get real value for money with that brand. Yes, I know it may seem funny to talk about value for money in any tier I or tier II piano, but among its peers you do seem to get a lot of musical potential per Euro. Sauter is similar, though I think they are a bit pricier (at least in the US).

I too would like to try the new Charis (Grotrian 208) and Cathy Harl says she'll have one soon (if it's not there in Alexandria already).

All the best in your search, and keep us posted.

Cheers,

David


P.S. I couldn't help but notice your use of the name Bozen instead of Bolzano. Do lots of folks still call it by the German name? I'm not trying to start a fracas between Italy and Austria.

@ Ron Overs:
I too believe that the Sauters are wondfully built instruments. In fact, I admired these photos on EJ Sauter's page some time ago when I found this forum. Playing the small Alpha has only encouraged me to try out the bigger ones.

Thank you for the advice on the bass section. I think that this design requires higher tension on the strings, as the longer bass strings have to be tuned to higher frequencies. As an engineer I am interested in technical things, so if you don't mind, would you please elaborate why the "old" scale design with less wound strings affects tuning stability, as the "new" design implies higher tension scales and therefore the strings should be more likely to yield?

@ curry: Borgato seem to have moved, they are now located in Lonigo near Vicenza. (not even 100 km from Padova)

@ Wzkit: A visit to Spaichingen is probably also the only possibility to play an Omega, as it seems that around here one is lucky even to find a Delta. As for the time schedule, I have plenty of time, as my new apartment will be ready only around this time next year and until then I have no room to hold the grand.

@ lilylady: A trip to the USA is definitely not in the books, so I think that, as I suspected, unfortunately I will have to do without trying Estonia and M&H.

@ Piano*Dad: Sauter is less expensive than Grotrians (about 15-20% difference).
And no, you're not stirring up any fracas, as I am not really into this ethnic dispute, which I find is highly superfluous. I am of german mothertongue, but speak Italian almost just as well, and must admit that I find the double-ethnicity as nothing but an advantage, as we grow up with two languages that come from two of the most common linguistic families in the world (romanic and indogermanic). In South Tyrol, both German and Italian are official languages and therefore both names (Bozen and Bolzano) are official, just as Sterzing and Vipiteno are for my hometown. I find it highly interesting that someone from as distant a country knows about the german speaking minority in Italy, as most people in Italy and Austria don't know anything about the situation in South Tyrol. Have you been to our parts? If you're interested in this topic, do not hesitate to PM me.

Keep the reports coming! I just have a humble upright that is now at the 'distinguished' age of 89 years, but love to live vicariously through posts like yours!

If you want to try a Mason & Hamlin, you will need to get in touch with PianoDisk (who own M&H if I am informed correctly). There is no dealer of theirs in Germany, at least, but they offered to me that they can set up one in their warehouse in Franken (somewhere north of Nürnberg, I think).
Maybe they can do something like that in Northern Italy as well, or possibly Austria, as that would be closer for you.

Markus

I know that some people here will kill me but American made pianos are almost impossible to market in Europe.

Call it close mindedness or whatever - no go over there.....

I personally know the M.H. rep near Nuernberg, Germany and he has had absolutely no luck so far.

During NAMM, a top Vienna Boesendorfer dealer checked out another well known U.S. maker only to concede after few minutes that "this piano would never sell over here"

Isn't it great to live in America?

Norbert

Vippo wrote;

. . . would you please elaborate why the "old" scale design with less wound strings affects tuning stability, as the "new" design implies higher tension scales and therefore the strings should be more likely to yield?[/b]

In the case of 7 foot-class grand pianos, 'old world scale' designs have a deleterious affect on tuning stability, and it is totally related to the designer's choice of cross-over point. It would seem that their primary goal was to have a certain number of notes in the bass section, rather than making an executive decision based on how many notes should be placed in the bass section, from a perspective of tension and tuning stability. Many of the old world 7-foot scales break at the notes E20/F21. This is also the cross-over point at which a majority of the concert grand scales break. The choice of placing the break at E20/F21 for the older 7-foot scales would seem to have more to do with 'good marketing' reasons than good design reasons. And as we all know, for much of the time marketing rules, and for good reason.

A typical concert grand scale, with a lowest note on the treble bridge at note F21, will be strung when at pitch at a percentage of breaking strain of around 36% (with a speaking length of around 183cm). In these standard concert grand scales the tension, expressed as a percentage of breaking strain, will deviate from around 65% at note C88 to around 36% at note F21. This percentage will vary somewhat from one batch of wire to another, but the trend will remain. From a tuning stability perspective, the less the deviation in the percentage of breaking strain, the less will be the deviation in tuning stability as the piano is exposed to climatic variations in temperature and humidity. For those 'old world' 7-foot scales where the designer has taken the treble section down to the same cross over point as for the concert grand scale, a serious drop in the percentage of breaking strain will be unavoidable, since the 7-foot-class of piano is a very much shorter instrument, and even if it is designed with a relatively long speaking length at note F21, it will be very much shorter at around 154 cm when compared to the concert piano's 183 cm. The longest speaking length for the 7-foot scale's lowest treble-section note will be naturally limited by the size of the shorter case. If the lowest note on the treble is F21, as with the 'old world' 7-foot scales, at 154 cm the percentage of breaking strain will fall to just over 25%. Remember that the concert grand scale fell only to 36%. An 'old world' scale F21, being strung at only 25% of break when at pitch, will exhibit inferior tuning stability when compared to that of the standard concert grand scale.

Now lets consider the situation where a contemporary piano designer, employing contemporary thinking, comes along and decides to take his/her courage in both hands by moving the low-treble cross up from F21 to G#24. He/she will still be at liberty to retain the longest speaking length at 154 cm, but it will now apply to note G#24 instead of F21. At 154 cm the percentage of breaking strain of note G#24 will be 36%, the same lowest percentage of breaking strain as for the standard concert grand design. So it will naturally follow, that because the tuning stability of an instrument is related directly to the percentage of breaking strain deviation, that the contemporary 7 foot piano scale with a lowest treble note at note G#24 will exhibit the same relatively good tuning stability characteristics as for a standard concert grand scale.

Interestingly, the Steinway model D concert grand has a lowest speaking length on the treble bridge of 183 cm at note F21. So too does the Baldwin SD-10, the Fazioli F278, the Kawai EX and also the Yamaha CF. 183 must be a wonderful number, or could it be that the other instruments are virtually clones of the Steinway?

Returning to the subject at hand, as I mentioned in my previous post in this thread, the number of notes in the bass section of a 7 foot class instrument will have a big influence on its potential tuning stability. Of course there are other design factors that are also important for tuning stability, but if the scale isn't designed appropriately, any chance of achieving good stability will be 'out the window'.

Hope this helps Vippo. If you would like further information PM me, since I wrote a web page on this very topic a couple of years ago. But the url is not published on my website.

This topic of scaling inadequacies in shorter pianos has interested me since very early in my concert tuning career, during the late 70's. It has taken three decades for the world of mainstream piano design to make a move. The pace of change remains painfully slow. I believe this is a consequence of the market dominance of one company, which refuses to change their product because they are so successful that they don't have to change a thing. There remains considerably more to be achieved in the area of scaling, if we allow ourselves to move the goal posts to wherever they need to be for best performance. The evolution of the acoustic piano is not yet complete.

In conclusion Vippo, to return to your original question, the older low tensions scales being too far below the yield point in the low treble is a serious issue. 36% is below a safe tension for the low treble but it works, but 25% creates big problems, since the pitch will change much more as the tension changes slightly due to the changes in sound board movement and iron plate expansion/contraction.

Best regards,
Ron O.

Thank you Ron for your always extremely valuable and interesting comments on piano scale design - asking questions related to it in piano stores usually gets blank faces from the sales person, and can be very helpful to be taken seriously and not being told complete rubbish.
In that line of thought, when test playing instruments, I note down the change over points as part of the instrument details (together with serial number etc.) of the instruments I might be considering. Now on both the Blüther 190 and the Bösendorfer 200, the change from bass to treble bridge is at A#26/B27 (or B26/H27 in German - just to be different). These instruments are shorter than 7ft (especially the Blüthner), so it is hard to compare with your examples, but how would that translate into percentage of breaking strain?

I'll keep on having a look out for that - not sure what piano sales people would say if I suddenly took out a tape measure and measured the speaking length of the lowest treble string, though.

On the other hand: first and foremost criterion on an instrument is the sound - if that then comes with a higher tuning stability, I would consider that as a plus.

Markus

Ron,

Thank you for that extremely clear explanation.

David