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For me discussions like this is just pointless. I can't think of a single pianist who are regarded as a "master" on both genres. There have been classical musicians who have been competent, and even good, but none of them really are regarded in the same ranks as the likes of Keith Jarret, Oscar Peterson... etc., and vice versa.
I can pick any other musical subgenre. Comparing Chucho Valdes to Keith Jarret is just as pointless. They are require different skills set and attention to different aspects of music, and if you judge every music by one rigid criteria, you are going to miss out on wide range of experiences that music can really offer. In other words, I use different ears when I listen to Rubenstein, Keith Jarret, Chucho Valdes, Cecil Taylor, Ethan Iverson or Stevie Wonder. Not being a snob about one type of music really opened my ears to new things, including hip hop(believe it or not, it takes a real talent and craftsmanship to do whats someone like J Dilla does on his records).
Keith Jarret is one of my favorite pianists, but then again I love listening to so many different pianists, and they all have different things to offer. I'd rather not think of music as a contest in general.
Well said. Sadly, we live in a society that places some value on being the best, even when it is not possible to determine objectively what or who is the best. Like you, we should embrace diversity, and shun those whose waste their time judging ( including me, since I am clearly judging here).
Well said. Sadly, we live in a society that places some value on being the best, even when it is not possible to determine objectively what or who is the best. Like you, we should embrace diversity, and shun those whose waste their time judging ( including me, since I am clearly judging here).
Thanks I just wanted to add my two cents because I didn't want things to get ugly. I may not understand everything about classical piano playing but I really do have tremendous respect for the craft. On the other hand, it can be very frustrating when a classical musicians talks about merits of jazz piano without really understanding how we judge the craftsmanship that goes into jazz. I used to do that for non-jazz keyboardist too. I didn't want the thread to go to that route.
I've also used to worship the likes of Bill Evans and Keith Jarrett too, and I would have said they were the absolute best, but then again, the more jazz piano I listen to, the more it get's difficult to make that kind claim. Claire Fischer's "Alone together" is my favorite jazz piano album of all time, and I find Enrico Pieranunzi, Fred Hersch, Alan Broadbent's playing of jazz ballad just as exquisite. To say who is better just seems pointless. They all bring something special to the table that only they could, and they do it at incredibly high level.
I also agree that improvisation is very much alive in some classical circles too, and the perception of it being dead probably has more to do with lack of awareness than anything else. It's the same reason people say Jazz is dead.
I guess I'll be the minority here, but honestly I can't listen to either Keith Jarret or Bill Evans solo piano for any great lengths of time. Their solo jazz stuff is just too dense with non-standard reharmonization and "classical" type stuff for me to be able to hang on for more than 5 or 10 minutes.
Give me any cocktail pianist worth their salt or someone like Lou Levy or Mulgrew Miller on solo piano and I can listen to them all day long.
It's a sensibility thing. My personal taste is more attuned to the rythms and changes of the standards and straigtahead jazz.
I haven't heard any greater, dead or alive in any genre. Now if they had recording devices in Mozart's, Beethoven or Bach's era perhaps we could make a suitable comparison.
I guess I'll be the minority here, but honestly I can't listen to either Keith Jarret or Bill Evans solo piano for any great lengths of time. Their solo jazz stuff is just too dense with non-standard reharmonization and "classical" type stuff for me to be able to hang on for more than 5 or 10 minutes.
It's a sensibility thing. My personal taste is more attuned to the rythms and changes of the standards and straigtahead jazz.
Hmm, a rather strange thing to say. If you are talking straight-ahead jazz standards both Jarrett and Evans are top of the list. Frankly, those links you provided sound like any pianist I could hear at a Holiday Inn lobby. Nothing original or inspiring.
If you think Jarrett does reharmonizations I can only imagine what happens when you listen to Herbie Hancock.
Jarrett plays chords simply, often in triads or 7ths. He'll do some dominate 7th adds like the standard b9/#9, b5/#5 but nothing unusual in jazz. Herbie on the other hand is a master of color and "impressionist" style.
Perhaps your ears just aren't attuned to the nuances of jazz. Kitsch cocktail piano is the furthest thing from real jazz.
No one has mentioned Jarrett's new recording with his Standards Trio, Somewhere. It you like the Standards Trio, I'm sure you'll like this one. It's a live recording from several years ago, just released.
Perhaps your ears just aren't attuned to the nuances of jazz. Kitsch cocktail piano is the furthest thing from real jazz.
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Keith Jarrett is sort of a bridge of classical and jazz, that's why he is often listened to by classical fans who otherwise wouldn't be interested in straightahead jazz or bebop.
His style of playing, and Bill Evans' *solo piano* (not his work in groups) simply do not appeal to me that much. As i said, I could listen to cocktail music all day long. I cannot say the same about Jarrett or Bill Evans.
But if you want some examples, of true jazz pianists who I truly enjoy listening to: Lou Levy John Bunch Ahmad Jamal Mulgrew Miller Russell Freeman Tommy Flanagan Beegie Adair
All those guys (and one gal) are true jazz pianists, not the classical-jazz hybrid that Jarrett represents.
Again, this is nothing against Jarrett or his style of playing. It's a matter of personal taste
Also, regarding "cocktail." don't knock it. It's a bridge between the pop/classical world and jazz. Competent cocktail piano requires a high degree of skill, and a good ear for harmony. Same thing goes for easy listening - some of it (the better stuff) makes use of very sophisticated harmonization.
Last edited by Michael Martinez; 07/08/1301:41 PM.
I'm not a fan of rating great players. Here's a few thoughts on Keith Jarrett and Bill Evans IMO.
Why I don't like Keith as much as Bill - He seems to always get in this counterpoint in every one of his ballads, IMO is overdone. I also don't think he creates arrangements but prefers true improve, which I totally respect except recreating an original arrangement has been a staple for all of the greats. I sometimes think he takes the easy way out by keeping the melody a single line.
Why I like Bill and think he truly could be one of the best ballad players - His arrangements on some tunes, IMO are the standard for future listeners (Here's that Rainy Day, Alfie.) He develops interesting and difficult arrangements. He's constantly used multiple keys, and didn't shy away from difficult keys. His solos always seem to be extensions of his arrangements.
One last comment about Keith's soloing compared to Bill's at faster tempos.
IMO - Bill has his language, but he is great at always tricking you and keeping it fresh. Every note has meaning. Keith, IMO, sometimes plays lines or phrases that he might like to take back. It sounds right but not on the same level as Bill.
Lastly, I like Keith very much and own many albums but don't feel the need to transcribe, read transcriptions or listen to a song over and over to figure out the magic. Bill has been one of my favorites since I discovered jazz. I don't transcribe him, but am always working on his transcriptions from books and am always listening to his body of work, keying in more on his Riverside and Verve years.
I probably play more like Keith live, which you might find weird but that's because I'm lazy and I think it's easier to just improvise arrangements rather than work them out. To create Bill's ballad style, you have to really do your shedding.
Keith, IMO, sometimes plays lines or phrases that he might like to take back. It sounds right but not on the same level as Bill.
When it comes to straight jazz, there are many pianists whose playing is superior to Keith Jarrett. For example, listen to Ahmad Jamal on his album Crystal or Mulgrew Miller on his album Live at Lincoln Center. These guys' playing is simply on a higher level.
Even some of the avante-gard pianists like the guy who plays with the Seamus Blake quartet. These guys understand jazz, plain and simple. Jarrett, on the other hand, seems to coming to jazz from an outsider's perspective, like he was trained classically first and then got into jazz later, but wasn't able to fully make the transition.
Me personally, choosing between Bill Evans or Keith Jarrett I definitely choose Bill Evans. He's certainly more in the traditional jazz camp, he could swing bebop lines as well as anybody, and as someone else said, could keep things fresh and interesting. This is particularly a trait of the beboppers.
as I said before, I enjoy Evan's work in trios. Less so as solo piano because I find him very dense and, at times, almost classical-like for my ears. When I listen to piano, I want it to swing.
Last edited by Michael Martinez; 07/15/1301:23 PM.
Keith, IMO, sometimes plays lines or phrases that he might like to take back. It sounds right but not on the same level as Bill.
When it comes to straight jazz, there are many pianists whose playing is superior to Keith Jarrett. For example, listen to Ahmad Jamal on his album Crystal or Mulgrew Miller on his album Live at Lincoln Center. These guys' playing is simply on a higher level.
Even some of the avante-gard pianists like the guy who plays with the Seamus Blake quartet. These guys understand jazz, plain and simple. Jarrett, on the other hand, seems to coming to jazz from an outsider's perspective, like he was trained classically first and then got into jazz later, but wasn't able to fully make the transition.
I don't know how many jazz musicians you can find out there who could agree to that As far as I know, most accomplished jazz musicians considers Keith one of the best "straight-jazz" pianist, even by those people you mentioned. I remember reading about how Miles Davis was in awe with Keith ability and asked him "how do you just come up with stuff like that?, or something to that effect. I really haven't heard any well-known jazz musicians who questioned Jarrett's ability as a jazz pianist until today
Some Mulgrew quotes
"MM: Uh, not at this point. I admire all the great trios—Oscar Peterson, Ahmad Jamal, Bill Evans, right on down to Keith Jarrett's trio---when I say "right down to I mean time-wise (laughs). Tommy Flanagan's trio, Cedar Walton's trio, and I've heard Chick and Herbie play trio and of course, McCoy Tyner. So, I've learned so much from all of the great trios and piano players in jazz that play trio."
"MM: Yes. Well, I think Keith Jarrett is a melody-maker of the highest order. Not only is he a great melodist, he’s also a very lyrical player, and there’s so much poetry in his lines and his improvising. “Rainbow†is just one of the finest recorded examples of that, for my ears anyway. I just love that piano solo."
I don't know how many jazz musicians you can find out there who could agree to that
Do you play jazz or talk music with jazz musicians? Most of those I've played with, if they listen to him at all, basically think he's fine but they aren't taking their cues from him. People don't sit down trying to learn all the "Keith Jarrett licks" if you know what I mean.
Anybody who has a skill level will be given their kudos by other musicians. Musicians aren't trying to go around discrediting others. It's tough making a living in the music business. You aren't going to find jazz musicians knocking other people who play jazz. Everyone knows what it takes to get there. You're going to say nice things about others because that's how it's done.
But Keith Jarrett the greatest straight jazz pianist? No way. Like I said, take a listen to the Jamal and Mulgrew albums I mentioned. Listen to the music, don't form your opinion based on the words of reviewers and critics.
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As far as I know, most accomplished jazz musicians considers Keith one of the best "straight-jazz" pianist, even by those people you mentioned. I remember reading about how Miles Davis was in awe with Keith ability and asked him "how do you just come up with stuff like that?, or something to that effect.
I mean, you'll find jazz musicians in awe of classical players or composers, but it's not saying those guys are playing jazz nor could they if they were put in that situation.
As someone above mentioned, you'll sometime hear Jarrett doing something he "probably wishes he could take back." the perrson who said this is hitting it on the mark. What this menas is that the musician didn't approach a change in the most logical manner or create a harmonic transition in the manner that the ear most expects. This to me always indicates someone hasn't taken it to the next level as far as figuring out those reharmonizations and how to apply them on an improvised line. This always indicates somewhat of a lack of musical maturity in certain areas. Obviously a player can have a well-developed ear and technique for certain things, while lacking in others. This is the case with Jarrett, at least as far as his jazz playing goes.
Contrast this with the truly "great" jazz pianists who have developed an impeccable sense of harmony and harmonic transition. There are so many pianists I would put into this category. I mean, sometimes I have to do a double-take when I'm listening to Beegie Adair, for example because she will construct a set of changes that is a bit unexpected, but absolutely flawlessly executed - it works! But with Jarret, sometimes things just don't quite "work." I mean they work on a basic level, but not in a sophisticated manner.
When I hear Keith Jarrett, I hear somebody who brings his own style, his own sensibility to the piano. I don't call it straight jazz, I call it a "classical-jazz" hybrid. It's beautiful and awesome for what it is.
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I really haven't heard any well-known jazz musicians who questioned Jarrett's ability as a jazz pianist until today
This thread is about whether he deserves the title of "greatest jazz pianist." the answer: NO WAY.
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Some Mulgrew quotes
"MM: Uh, not at this point. I admire all the great trios—Oscar Peterson, Ahmad Jamal, Bill Evans, right on down to Keith Jarrett's trio---when I say "right down to I mean time-wise (laughs). "
this in fact could be quite telling. Perhaps a Freudian slip? (covering his tracks when he realized he was being condescending?)
Me personally, I put Keith Jarrett in the same category as a Chick Corea or someone like that. They have their own style, they do interesting things, etc.
Last edited by Michael Martinez; 07/15/1306:17 PM.
but but but .... if anyone would like to attempt to change my mind, give me the album/track of what you consider to be the EPITOME of Keith Jarrett's jazz, and I would love to take a listen to it. Who knows, maybe it will blow me away and change my opinion of him. There's lots of stuff of his I have not listened to, so ...
That's a problem because everything he plays is perfect. So choose one randomly. And then if you don't like it, move on and leave it for another life. Or try again.
Do you play jazz or talk music with jazz musicians? Most of those I've played with, if they listen to him at all, basically think he's fine but they aren't taking their cues from him. People don't sit down trying to learn all the "Keith Jarrett licks" if you know what I mean.
I don't know what part of CA you are from, but I've talked to many great musicians in LA jazz scene who had tremendous amount of respect for Keith Jarrett's music and considers him to be one of the best, including people like, Shelly berg, Mark Massey, Cecilia Coleman and Llew Matthews to name a few. I'm sure Charlie Haden would disagree with you too. Bill Cunliffe even lists Keith Jarret as his top 10 jazz pianists of all time
I remember Josh Nelson(who is currently touring with Natalie Cole) had couple of Keith Jarrett transcriptions and virtually every single jazz piano majors I met in schools have done at least one or two Keith Jarrett transcriptions.
Maybe we just know different groups of musicians, but I can say pretty comfortably that Keith Jarrett's reputation as "one of the best" is pretty unanimous. And I'm speaking from experience traveling and talking to musicians from NY, Japan, Europe and all over the world. You'd be hard pressed to find a younger jazz pianists who isn't influenced/deeply inspired by his music, including his standards CDs.
this in fact could be quite telling. Perhaps a Freudian slip? (covering his tracks when he realized he was being condescending?)
That sounds more like a reflection of your bias than what Mulgrew meant I can't see how anyone would come to that conclusion if they actually read the interview or know anything about Mulgrew.
I'll just end this with a quote from Kenny Werner.
"Keith Jarrett is generally recognized as one of the greatest pianists and improvisers of his time. He represents the apex of human possibilities for an artist, where intellect, virtuosity and spirit combine to constitute genius."
Here's one of my favorite Keith Jarrett solos. He is definitely one of the best, but again, I don't consider him an "essence" player.
Thanks for the link. Honestly I don't hear anything outstanding there. I consider something like the following to be superior, piano solo starts at 1:30 (Lou Levy on his album Jazz in Four colors):
Or in keeping with the "70s theme" (your link was recorded in the 70s), something like the following (Bert Ligon on his album Condor):
Originally Posted by knotty
That's a problem because everything he plays is perfect. So choose one randomly.
I've listened to Jarrett before. I need something to *change* my mind, not reinforce it.
Originally Posted by etcetra
I don't know what part of CA you are from, but I've talked to many great musicians in LA jazz scene who had tremendous amount of respect for Keith Jarrett's music and considers him to be one of the best,
When you interview people they're not going to say he's a bad player. Have I said he's a bad player? No, of course not. All I'm saying is in the years I've been playing, nobody sits around talking about Keith Jarrett. If anything we're talking about the old beboppers or the fresh newer people like Esperanza Spalding and David Kikoski. We're either trying to imitate old masters or figure out how the interesting new sounds are being played. Maybe it's my personal experience, but in the circles I'm in he just doesn't come up. I'm much more likely to hear someone going on about Bud Powell or Hampton Hawes.
Anyway, at this point I still would be interested in hearing an example of Keith Jarrett playing outstanding jazz.
I just wanted to add my two cents because I didn't want things to get ugly. I may not understand everything about classical piano playing but I really do have tremendous respect for the craft. On the other hand, it can be very frustrating when a classical musicians talks about merits of jazz piano without really understanding how we judge the craftsmanship that goes into jazz. I used to do that for non-jazz keyboardist too. I didn't want the thread to go to that route.
