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I've been away from piano for about 6 years! I was an older late starter and was determined to play piano. I had two years of wwekly lessons with a teacher, but felt I wasn't learning enough, using children's books. I loved this forum and recognised various people's names and followed the progress of others.
I don't know what happened, I just stopped! My piano lid stayed closed for years. Then last month, I found my interest again. I realise now that my teacher was teaching me to read music and follow a classical path. I can see how much I learned and remembered and have been able to revise very quickly to where I left off.
I am now using the Alfred's All in One, self teaching until I find the right teacher for me and have been trying to read the hundreds of posts regarding the Alfred's thread. I have seen it go through years and everyone seems to have moved on with their learning.
I am trying not to regret where I would be if I had carried on, and am in a positive mood.
Just now I am trying to understand the connection with key signatures and scales, it's just not sinking in why G Major key has F sharp for instance. I will be getting a scales book, but will be practising not knowing why.
I hope someone will be able to help me understand, I have read alsorts on the internet, but I'm just not getting it.
Thanks for help in anticipation, it's so good to be back.

Hi Shey,
welcome back!

Your plan of not dwelling on where you would be had you not stopped is a good one - just focus on the here and now and see how it goes.

As for the question about why Gmajor has an F sharp.... The notes of a major scale go up in specific increments.

Often they are called tones and semi-tones - or whole steps and half steps. I think tone and semitone is easier to say.

T G to A = 1 full tone (G -to g sharp to A)
T A to B = 1 full tone (A to A sharp to B)
S B to C= 1 semi tone - no black key!
T C to D = 1 full tone ( C to C sharp to D)
T D to E = 1 full tone (D to D sharp to E)
T E to F# = 1 full tone - (E to F to F sharp)
S F# to G = 1 semi-tone (F# to G)

and so on.

If you start on C and repeat the same pattern of TTSTTTS you will see you end up with no sharps - if you start on D you'll end up with 2 sharps.

It is all very cool.
Most basic books on theory will start off explaining this and then go on to discuss the notes in the scale that make up chords.

I hope that was helpful.

welcome back

Major scales are marked by a certain sound, and a certain sequence of whole and half steps between the notes.

Let's start with sound. The C major scale starts on C and includes all the white notes on the piano. Play an octave of the C major scale, up and down from C to C, with just one hand. You don't need to use any particular fingering; you can use just one finger if you like, or anything, for this listening practice. Listen to the sound. Listen in particular to the sound of the last three notes: A B C. Listen to them descending also: C B A.

Now try a scale starting on G. First play just white notes, one octave, up and down, with just one hand. Listen to the sound. Can you hear that it sounds wrong at the top? (If you can't hear it, just trust that some people can hear this, and carry on with the following steps.). Now play a scale starting on G, with all white keys except for one exception: instead of F natural play F sharp. Can you hear that this sounds the same as C major now, just higher (or lower, if you started on a lower G)? Play the last three notes, up and down: E F# G, G F# E. Can you hear that this is the same sound -- the same miniature tune -- as the last three notes in the C major scale: A B C, C B A? Compare to the sound of the G scale version with F natural: E F G, G F E. Can you hear that this sounds different?

If you can hear the versions that sound different and the versions that sound the same, then you have discovered aurally that a G major scale has F#, not F natural. I should mention here that all major scales sound the same, except they start on different pitches. This is the aural definition of being the same kind of scale: they sound the same except for starting on different pitches.

OK, that's the aural side. But we sort of had to do trial and error to figure out that it should be F# instead of F natural. In my next post I'll give a method involving checking the distance between notes to find a major scale immediately without having to do aural trial and error. (If you're strong in aural skills, the aural method may get you a lot farther than it can get me, but knowing about the distances between notes will come in handy in lots of places, not just major scales, so it's worth learning.)

That was cross posted: I see that casinitaly has already given the method I had in mind, of whole steps and half steps. In contrast to casinitaly, I find whole step and half step easier to work with than tone and semitone, so for me the major scale interval pattern is WWHWWWH. Shey, I see that you're in England: do you use tone/semitone or whole step/half step?

As you're working out examples of scales using the tone/semitone interval pattern, listen also to the results. Does it sound right? It's useful to be able to recognize the sound of a major scale.

casinitaly, thank you, I have a feeling I did learn that. The tone semi tone thing. I need to check my old books, things getting a little clearer. I can hear the difference when sharps need to be added to a scale, just totally forgot about the tone part. Thanks for prompt reply. So excited at getting it all together and re learning.

PianoStudent88, yes I use tone and semi tone, only just remembered with casinitaly's help. Thanks for the detailed post, very helpful, I seem to need a lot of nudging to bring my old learning back. I do have good aural skill, and can hear the difference in the f and f sharp and know when things sound wrong when playing scales. I need to study the interval patterns, listen to major scales to recognise the right sound. I thank you again for your prompt reply and already my confidence is returning. Being able to ask questions which are just eluding me without feeling stupid is wonderful.

Sweet06, I appreciate the welcome back

Hi Shey,

Good to hear from you again. I hope you are able to find a teacher who is a good fit for you. I think that's critical for adult beginners.

Everyone thinks they are not learning enough. Maybe the choice of music could have been a little more adult oriented but you were doing the right thing with weekly lessons.





I hope you find that "right teacher" soon.

Generally speaking, getting help from a teacher is your quickest path to becoming a skilled player. Don't let promises of "quick" methods sway you. This forum is full of examples of players spending years on quick methods and ending up making very little progress or quitting in frustration.

Are you sure you weren't learning enough specifically because of children's books? Their only difference to adult books is the pacing; adult books are paced faster and arguably more difficult to traverse alone while because children's books are slower, they have a lesser tendency to leave holes of any kind. Obviously one use of a teacher is to fill any gaps left by the method books, if you use or follow one at all. I ask the question because the lack of progress (be it perceived or real) very well may be attributed to a lack of an efficient practice routine and not the music you were using - the former allows for learning of the latter. Whether or not a teacher can help provide such a routine is an important question to ask/consider in selecting one to study under.




This is good. Don't regret the past, learn from it.

I have just been practising some chords and revising note values, I feel I am remembering all sorts of bits of theory. Bob, yes I am wary of the "learn piano in two months" ideas, and would never go down that route, I want to have the proper grounding and training to be able to play piano well. I think I felt let down by my original teacher, playing only bits of children's music, although now I know I learnt a lot, and am not sure how to find someone who suits my needs just now, so I am practising in short spurts, and really enjoying myself. Setting small goals for each day and yet pushing myself to make progress.
Can anyone please recommend a tutor book for scale practice that explains in detail the relationship to major, minor and key signatures, I'm now thinking this might be relevant to the circle of 5ths, of which I know nothing about! Thanks again for your replies and welcome posts.

i don't really understand the circle of fifths, i'm looking forward to a good response to that. my current understanding (please don't take this as the "answer", its not, but it could be haha!) is that with your 1 and 5 you create a 5th assuming standard hand positiions so theres different combinations you can hit and just go up and down the keyboard. im sure im terribly wrong, it seems any explanation i see on the net is just a big picture with notes and stuff in a circle.

What is it you don't understand about the diagram? I can't make head or tail of your post, by the way.

Sweet06,
The Circle of Fifths, helps to explain the relationships between Key Signatures.

For example, if you have already learned the formula for constructing a major scale, as has been posted above, (T,T,S,T,T,T,S) and play the C major scale, you will see that it contains no sharps or flats.

Now play the 5th note of the C scale (G), and construct a G major scale, using the formula. You will see that it contains one sharp (F#)which is the key signature of G major.

Next, play the 5th note of the G major scale (D) and construct the D major scale. It will contain 2 sharps, (F# and C#) This is the key signature of D major.

Carry on in this manner, until you have found all of the sharp key signatures.

By moving in the opposite direction, e.g. play 5 notes down the keyboard from C, and you will hit F. Constructing an F major scale, you will find it contains one flat (Bb)

Playing 5 notes downwards from F, brings you to Bb. The Bb scale will contain 2 flats (Bb and Eb) and so on.

There is more to the Circle of Fifths than I have outlined so far, for example, working out key signatures for the relative minor keys, but it should get you started in understanding how it works.

Good luck.

This is the part of your explanation that I object to. The reason it's called the circle of fifths is because it is a cycle of keys which never ends. Don't think about it in terms of sharp keys, then flat keys. After you get to the bottom of the circle from the sharp side, continue back around with decreasing numbers of flats until reaching C again, and so on. Or you could go backwards, which would look like this: C - F - Bb - Eb - Ab - Db - Gb/F# - B - E - A - D - G - C, etc.

Sweet06 I hope this won't confuse you further:

If you start at C(no sharps)and count up a perfect 5th you'll end up at G which has one sharp (the F). Count up another perfect 5th and you'll be at D which has two sharps(F and C). Count again up a perfect 5th and your at A which has three sharps (F,C and G) etc, etc. As you can see you will add a sharp each time you go to the next perfect fifth. Look at the following link to this web page and see if you understand what I am saying. HTH
Circle of Fifths

I have a feeling this explanation is incomplete.

Just couldn't resist while I edited huh?

You are of course, correct

I was merely trying to simplify the explanation, by starting with one sharp, and then one flat, key signature.

Yes, but I think it went a little too far beyond simplification - you were missing one of the crucial concepts.