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#2119568 - 07/18/13 11:13 AM RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos
dpk Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/18/13
Posts: 6
Hi all,

I am building a software piano setup at home and am deciding between the RD700NX and the VPC1 as a controller. The former has the added value of an internal tone generator (so I am leaning a bit towards that one if I ever want to play live) while the latter ships with optimized velocity curves for the common soft pianos like Ivory.

So, how important are those preset curves? I know exactly what they mean, but judging from the VPC1 screenshots it seems like they are almost linear anyway for most pianos and barely noticeable. If this is not the case, are there openly available curves for other pianos like the RD700NX?

Of course, any advice about RD700NX vs VPC1 is highly appreciated as well. smile The VPC1 doesn't seem to be available here, so I have to trust the forums.

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#2119574 - 07/18/13 11:26 AM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 753
As a controller for a software setup I would definitely prefer the VPC1. The adjustable curves are a real asset (depending on whether or not you have the same functionality in your software, of course). Even small changes in the curves do have a significant effect on playability.
The VPC1's action is great and I definitely prefer it to that of the Roland you mention (but others might disagree).

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#2119580 - 07/18/13 11:36 AM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
dpk Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/18/13
Posts: 6
My host software (FL Studio) does have the same functionality if I want to make my own curves, but I'm just purely asking about the quality and necessity of the presets the VPC1 ships with. It seems like they had piano players design "ideal" curves for a few of the common soft pianos and I don't know if I would be able to come up with the same.

Unfortunately I haven't seen a VPC1 in the San Francisco area, but others have noted that the action is a little heavier than the average grand piano? I did try the RD700NX and it seemed solid. This makes me hesitate to blindly buy a VPC1, but then again I might regret it later on... I know it's hard to describe, but is there anything you can capture in words that makes you pick the VPC1 over the Roland?

Thanks for your answer!

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#2119584 - 07/18/13 11:40 AM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 568
Loc: Mt View, CA
My RD-700NX has 5 major touch settings, with +9/-10 fine grain between (100 curves total). I think you'd be more interested in the difference between how the actions feel. PHAIII is quick, but somewhat bottoms out. I too am curious about VPC1, but I don't want to deal with software. Since you're building a software setup, yeah the VPC1 seems mighty interesting!!

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#2119590 - 07/18/13 11:51 AM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 753
You really have to sit down at the actions and play them. If you are serious I'd say that's a must.

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#2119656 - 07/18/13 01:39 PM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: The Netherlands
It's apples and pears.

Do you want a stage controller that is still (somewhat) portable, or do you want the best keys without ANY controls or sounds at all and in a design that can hardly be described as portable (just sort of transportable).

The VPC is the best controller for acoustic piano libraries , but the RD is really more versatile as an allround board if you need more.

So what's the definite list of things the controller should be able to fulfill for you ?! Once you know that, the choice should be easy to make, regardless of factory provided velocity curves or not.

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#2119685 - 07/18/13 02:57 PM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
Marco M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/12
Posts: 447
Loc: Europe
I often practice scales and arppegios, or tiny parts of a piece I am working at, things which I need to repeat often to get them memorized in muscles and brain. Every morning before leaving the flat, just 3 minutes, just enough to get the brain and muscles triggered to continue optimizing for the task.
Would I like to boot all my equipment for this? Would there even be enough time to get it booted, up and running in my 3 minutes?

So, if you think that you also could once run into such situation, then decision is done, or? With an instrument with sound generator, you press the power button, wait 5 seconds, and spontanously practice until the bus comes. Quickly push the off button and run out to catch the bus, without having to worry about anything.
_________________________
learning Piano on my Roland HP-505
before playing Drums in adults bluesband on handpicked set; before crashing E-Guitar in kids garage band; raised on home entertainment Organ and Keyboard models Eminent Solina P240, Farfisa Maharani 259R, Technics KN800, and on Mouth Organ, Recorder and Accordion

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#2119687 - 07/18/13 03:00 PM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 568
Loc: Mt View, CA
Ah, does the VPC1 still rely on Kawai's custom Windows-only software for configuring the thing? Or have they published the required system exclusive message documentation yet?

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#2119789 - 07/18/13 07:04 PM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: xorbe]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: xorbe
Or have they published the required system exclusive message documentation yet?


Haha. Hope springs eternal, I guess.

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#2119798 - 07/18/13 07:18 PM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
Vid Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 706
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
The VPC1 is definitely not for gigging. Its too heavy to transport easily and the computer/software is too cumbersome and error prone for stage performance.

I use the velocity curve presets which are activated by simply holding down a single button and tapping the appropriate piano key. I haven't installed the software for tweaking the velocity curves because I am satisfied with the presets as they are. Maybe someday if I have time and the inclination I will play with it but why mess with a good thing?

I leave my laptop running so all I have to do is turn on the VPC1 and start playing (after a couple of seconds). Of course if windoze runs updates then I have to restart but that only happens maybe once a week.
_________________________
Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#2119803 - 07/18/13 07:26 PM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8401
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
dpk, I'm afraid I do not have an up-to-date list of dealers in the San Francisco area that stock the VPC1. However, there are a number of Kawai dealers in your area, many of whom should have an MP10 and CA65/CA95 to play test. The keyboard action of the VPC1 will feel similar to the MP10, but offer the improved responsiveness of the CA65/CA95.

May I recommend you contact Kawai America for information regarding Kawai dealers in your are, or try the online dealer locator at the link below:

http://kawaius.com/locator2012.html

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2119816 - 07/18/13 07:56 PM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: xorbe]
dpk Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/18/13
Posts: 6
These are good points, thanks for all the replies.

Regarding RD700NX vs VPC1: If the action is about equally good, I would slightly tend to the RD700NX since they are the same price (RD700NX goes at about $1800 used, VPC1 is about that much new) just to be able to play live every now and then. I would hate to make compromises, though, and regret the purchase later on. @JFP/maurus: Have you played both of them?

@Kawai James: Thanks! I actually did go to a local store yesterday and tried the MP10, but like others have noted found the action quite a bit heavier than the (Steinway and Kawai) grand pianos they had right there. For that reason I would be curious to really see the VPC1 and see what the fuzz is about.

Based on the feedback so far, it sounds like the preset curves are not *that* important, if I can make my own. This makes me wonder why there is no open-source repository of preset curves for the common keyboard/softpiano pairs.

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#2119835 - 07/18/13 08:31 PM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8401
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
dpk, I wrote a brief explanation about the touch curves the other day, making an analogy with ice cream. 

It is of course possible for users to create their own touch curve - either using the VPC Editor software, or similar functionality built into their preferred software piano. However, I get the impression that many players are unfamiliar with the subtle connections between touch and sound, and therefore tend to make over-exaggerated changes that are unnatural or imbalanced, resulting in an unsatisfying playing experience. The strength of the 'approved touch curves' is the fact that they are prepared by professional engineers who have years of knowledge and experience working with keyboard actions and sound. Each approved touch curve is created over extended periods of time and requires many hours of testing and retesting - it's a far more complicated process than clicking and dragging a few points on a curve.

Regarding action weight, the MP10's keyboard action is certainly heavier than the RD-700NX. I used to play exclusively on a Nord Electro 3 (not the HP model) and found the Kawai actions to be rather heavy on my out-of-shape hands. However, by contrast the Roland actions still felt very playable. These days, however, I'm fortunate to have an MP8II at my apartment (which I MIDI up to my Nord), and have grown to really love the weighty touch - it no longer feels too heavy for my hands. Whenever I go back to the Electro (e.g. for organ playing) it just feels so, so light... and I expect I would have a similar feeling if I was to a Roland.

Some players prefer the lighter actions, others prefer something a little more substantial - it really comes down to individual personal preference.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2119851 - 07/18/13 09:15 PM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
Vid Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 706
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Good point Kawai James! Part of the reason why I don't get into editing the curves is because I doubt I could do a better job than an engineering team.
_________________________
Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#2119963 - 07/19/13 01:43 AM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
dpk Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/18/13
Posts: 6
Thanks James! Thanks in general for all your posts across the different forums, I have read quite a bit from you during my research. smile
Yes, I could totally see myself over-correcting or tweaking curves over and over again. And I can also see myself regretting my choice, whichever of the two I pick. wink

Do you happen to have a list of VPC1 vendors in California in general? The ones in the SF area I visited didn't have it yet. I might drive down to L.A. this weekend and cross like half the state, but it seems like the Kawai website only lets me search by one specific town at a time.


Edited by dpk (07/19/13 01:43 AM)

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#2119965 - 07/19/13 01:49 AM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8401
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
dpk, thank you for your kind words! wink

I'm afraid I do not have a list of dealers in the US, unfortunately. This information is maintained by Kawai America. My strong recommendation would be to give them a call and ask for the most up-to-date information.

If you do decide to take a road-trip to LA, I believe Pierre's Fine Pianos may be able to assist with the VPC1 play-test. In addition, the folks at Kawai America may also suggest that you drop in to the head office and play-test the VPC1 there.

Incidentally, I recently stumbled upon a classifieds ad for a seller based in LA listing a VPC1 at $1600...

Best of luck!

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2119994 - 07/19/13 02:53 AM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 753
Originally Posted By: dpk
@maurus: Have you played both of them?


Yes.
You should know that my background is acoustic pianos; while by all means an amateur I played on pianos for years before I got my first digital piano (actually I was also a little bit into experimental music and synths since I was a student, and at some point wanted a 'real' action for these). I'm in the camp of those prefering a substantial, yet controllable action in acoustic pianos.
What's your pianistic background?

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#2120021 - 07/19/13 05:52 AM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: The Netherlands
I've played both. The action on the VPC1 is better, but as said before it's apple & pears. The VPC1 is NOT a gigging / controller board like the RD700NX. Apart from the fact that it doesn't carry internal sounds. I think you have to make up you mind on what you really want. If you want something to gig with , the VPC1 is not the best choice. If you want the best keys for piano playing with you software at home / studio - the VPC1 is spot-on. The boards you mention are simply to different in design and purpose to compare without keeping the intended use in mind.

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#2120026 - 07/19/13 06:10 AM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: JFP]
Eggman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/27/13
Posts: 53
Loc: UK
it seems a bit academic I have had an order for a Kawai VPC1 on order since May(9 weeks ago)with Thomann one of the largest musical instrument suppliers in Europe and just received an email telling me I will not be receiving delivery until at least October earliest. there is some serious over marketing and under production going on here.
I suggest if you find one in stock buy it.

Best
_________________________
Kawai VPC1 | Imperfect Samples Walnut Steinway Concert Grand | Galaxy Vintage D | Pianoteq |

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#2120032 - 07/19/13 06:42 AM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: Eggman]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 168
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Eggman
it seems a bit academic I have had an order for a Kawai VPC1 on order since May(9 weeks ago)with Thomann one of the largest musical instrument suppliers in Europe and just received an email telling me I will not be receiving delivery until at least October earliest. there is some serious over marketing and under production going on here.
I suggest if you find one in stock buy it.

Best


I've noticed the VPC1 on sale on quite a few different UK sites.
http://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/kawai-vpc1...CFTMctAod-EUAIA
http://www.umbrellamusic.co.uk/p/Worksta...CFZLItAodAnIAlw
http://www.ukpianos.co.uk/kawai-vpc1

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#2120045 - 07/19/13 07:23 AM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
Eggman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/27/13
Posts: 53
Loc: UK
Just rang those companies. No stock and no idea when they will get a kawai VPC-1. It is a real shame because you must admire Kawai for their innovation and gamble on this product. You can bet your life, as we speak, Yamaha and Roland will be busy developing their equivalents to compete with the VPC-1. This period should be kawai's golden time while they have this product niche market to themselves. Unfortunately you cant buy it.
_________________________
Kawai VPC1 | Imperfect Samples Walnut Steinway Concert Grand | Galaxy Vintage D | Pianoteq |

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#2122602 - 07/25/13 01:08 AM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
dpk Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/18/13
Posts: 6
To conclude this thread, I ended up going with the RD700NX – I compared it with the MP10 in L.A. and slightly prefered the RD700NX action, and the arguments for having an internal tone generator as a backup are convincing. Last but not least, I found a seller in L.A. who sold me the RD700NX $2200 new incl. tax. smile

Now I'll have to go search for a stand, but that's another topic. laugh

@Kawai James: I actually called Kawai, and unfortunately they do not have any showroom or any option to look at instruments in the HQ. Even worse, she could also neither tell me any retailer in L.A. that has the VPC1 in stock, nor tell me the names of the biggest retailers in L.A. that carry *any* Kawai products. Basically, the Kawai helpline left me with zero information. frown However, then I called Pierre and he ended up having both the MP10 and the VPC1 in stock, so that was great advice! Thanks again.

Thanks everyone for their help!


Edited by dpk (07/25/13 01:08 AM)

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#2122606 - 07/25/13 01:14 AM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8401
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
dpk, that's a very good price on the RD-700NX - congrats!

Thank you for the additional information too.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2123358 - 07/26/13 02:20 PM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
Alkanaut Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 27
Loc: NJ
Hi everyone -

I've had my VPC1 for about a month and I can happily report that my experience was quite enjoyable. Really solid unit, great action - totally worth the 4 month wait!

Until yesterday, I played it using Galaxy D and Kawai-EX-PRO libraries for sound, but after reading forum discussions about True Keys I have decided to give it a try and ordered the American Grand. I've had only a few minutes to play it but so far everything looks very promising! Might become my favorite...

I am posting it here because I have a few questions about touch curves. What touch curve do you guys use if you have the same setup? Do you modify the velocity curve in the app (I'm guessing no)? Will there be an "approved" VPC1 touch curve for VILabs?

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#2123473 - 07/26/13 06:54 PM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8401
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Alkanaut, thanks for your post, and congrats on the purchase (and eventual arrival!) of your VPC1. wink

Additional touch curves for the latest software piano libraries is certainly something we're keen to pursue. Let's see what the future brings. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2124789 - 07/29/13 12:13 PM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
Alkanaut Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 27
Loc: NJ
Kawai James, thanks, I will be on lookout for the future VPC editor updates!

I have switched to True Keys for the most part and I have also found that the linear curve works for me a bit better than my former setting tailored for Galaxy D. I am surprised by the impact of changing the touch curve on the overall feel of the piano and I think Kawai made a really good call on implementing this feature versus, for example, adding the mod wheel which IMO would ruin the simplicity and elegance of this model.

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#2124919 - 07/29/13 05:13 PM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8401
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Alkanaut, thank you for your positive feedback. wink

It perhaps goes without saying that I agree with you absolutely. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2124923 - 07/29/13 05:19 PM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
Vid Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 706
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
At the risk of being labelled a fanatic of some sort I also agree! smile
_________________________
Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#2124965 - 07/29/13 06:48 PM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
Allan W. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 369
Loc: Michigan
I use the VPC-1 Ivory II curve for my MP-10. I'm glad Kawai made the software available to download and the velocity curves easy to copy even if I don't have an VPC-1.

I wouldn't agree that it's mostly linear. Here's what it looks like:



It's softens the dynamics making it require more force to play loudly. I'm not 100% sure if it's better or not, but it does allow me to play with greater "range" of mp - mf.

I think the VPC-1 has similar enough action to the MP-10 to allow using the same curve, although I know the sensor configuration is different. I do prefer playing with this curve though.

By the way, this is just a VST plugin called "midiCurve". It's easier to use than editing velocity curves inside the VST piano.
_________________________
Recent adult re-starter... http://www.youtube.com/user/allanw
Kawai MP-10 + Ivory II (pic), Young Chang Y175, 2012 (renting) (pic)

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#2125795 - 07/31/13 10:59 AM Re: RD-700NX / VPC1 Velocity curves for software pianos [Re: dpk]
Alkanaut Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 27
Loc: NJ
Allan, thanks for the tip about midiCurve plugin! I currently run True Keys standalone in UVI player as this gives my kid a nice one-click way to launch the VI and start playing. I might eventually place the UVI as a plugin to Traktion and chain it with midiCurve, but for now I am going to experiment more with the VPC touch curve editor. It is similar in functionality to midiCurve, less fancy looking I would say, but it works. I hope Kawai will continue developing this tool...

Thanks again!

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