Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Bluthner 5694 underway

Good morning,
I'm just referencing Alfred Dolge. He is a sparce historian at best, and perhapse I am reading more into what he writes than is there.(my particular specialty) He does,however break his early career into "learned", amd "studied", and this in two different cities. Now this is pure conjecture, but I hear a reference to apprenticeship and journeymanship; two unavoidable stages in the guild system.

As I said Dolge is thin soup. But his focus is on who worked for whom and who they learned from. If Dolge makes a special reference, there is most likely a significant relationship.

Here are the pages in question. I think that our scholarly discussion covers "fair use", don't you?

https://plus.google.com/photos/1054...02288666385930129?authkey=COHy7r-ti8e5Rg

Seem to me that Julius Bluethner "studied" a lot, also he bought books on "acoustics" , while at the same time he was working as cabinet maker in different factories.
He may have been in contact with different piano makers in Leipzig.

He was very soon determined in understanding anything availeable, he worked to repair an Erard grand with good success, for instance, while at those times was only availeable to him Viennese or "English actions".

That is a long story, the chapter is long, there are not much original illustrations in this book unfortunately. It seem to be focused on the family, the history, more than to technical aspects.

There is a nice color pic of a piano with similar case than yours, however.

Your instrument have the 4th string or no ? It may have been a common feature on most models if not all , seem to me.

Thanks Craig, so it's a family heirloom. I still struggle to understand how a piano gets so dilapidated if it's an heirloom. Even more inexplicable that the owner can recall it being in decent condition. It looks like it sat in a damp barn for 60 years! Still, I'm sure you can resurrect it with your skills. Good luck.

No fourth string. And, now that we have some of the plate support strip off, I can say that the board is mounted at right angle to the case. Doesn't the cylindrical soundboard system incorporate an angled mounting?

Wow, this Julius sounds like a real dynamo. How old was he at this time?

He was 18 , in fact he said he learned from Bretschneider piano making, when he wanted to build his piano making firm and needed to be made citizen of Leipzig.
SO you are right , he worked for Breitshneider in 1851, and obtained from him a certificate as piano maker, that helpêd him to obtain the citizenship for Leipzig, where he had decided to setup his firm.
Zeit (the original town of Bluethner)was only a few hours from Leipzig, but in Prussia, while Leipzig was in Saxony.
The firm begun from scracth , with 3 workers all diligent cabinet maker.
They produced 8 grands and 2 square pianos the first year. First sale to a reputed university professor, specialize din hearing, made a good advertising to the quality of the instrument.

It is possible that the soundboard was not yet arched, at that time. ribbed, after drying, certainly.

The name of the case wood is may be Jacaranda, a variety of Rio rosewood that was widely used at those times.
The non cast framing makes the instrument prior to 1865 certainly.

Any updates? How is the soundboard restoration going?

OK, here is a link to our second photo cashe. This is the extraction of the soundboard and the removal of the ribs and bridges.


https://plus.google.com/photos/1054...06228293338964129?authkey=CMbrvMLtwNmGJQ

It is an interesting board. It has few ribs, particularly in the bass, and these are rather slight, being wider than they are tall. Except in the treble where they are made taller and only a little less wide. It seems Bluthner was trying to graduate the stiffness of the board from highly compliant in the bass to highly resistant in the treble.

I think this is a great picture.

Yea, I think I really caught him in that one.

Thank you Craig , wonderful job (you did that with an help ?)

I am amazed you keep the roomm clean !

The construction is certainly very well setup.

What are those green boxes ? weights or some water drop system ?


Best Regards

Hi, Isaac,

The green things are just tins full of old keyleads. They hold down the orange silicon rubber gaskets that direct the steam through a channel on the underside.

Help? No, that's my business partner.

Wow, I had no idea, when reading about your soundboard restoration. Your photos tell a very intriguing story. Looking forward to the next chapter. Hopefully, this it will end with a sound clip.
Carl

That is the usual way to restore historical instruments , soundboard wise. (well, not so usual today

Thank you , I thought it was not a steam machine but a system that provide water drops (as for gardening).

You can regulate the speam pressure ? is it a machine for wall paper, or some "cleaning steam machine" ?

Dry cleaning use some "dry moisture" systems, they are expensive, I dont know if they would be adapted to that use or even if they can work for long periods of time.

What shape are the ribs after all those years ?

Regards

We do not regulate the pressure directly. we have over time come to use a less powerful steam souurce. We have also experimented with captive steam passing through copper tubing in order to heat the water. this proves to be much slower than expected, so there comes a trade off between heat levels and the total time spent wet. Each application has its advantages.

Here are some pictures of the ribs all cleaned up.

https://plus.google.com/photos/1054...07214148036755409?authkey=CKaC_PHCwoTaYQ

Note how tight the grain gets in the two shortest ribs.

Craig - This is a fascinating thread.

Thank you!

Thanks for the pics.
Do you try to evaluate the resistance of those ribs ? due to the difference in grain it may not be easy.

I wonder how do you deal with the drying and stabilization of the wood after all that humidity. It may take some time.

What amount of drying will you use before ribbing ? do you only look at the dimension change or do you work with somewhat precise wood moisture level ,it may be possible just with temperature and room humidity observation I suppose, but for instance to attain 5.5% one need to dry the air, temperature enough would cause the use of very high temperature, I believe that an industrial air drier is better (allow to work at moderate temperature)

Just curious

Best regards

Isaac,
Sorry to have let a week go by before responding. Your questions got me thinking, and, unfortunately, that is a slow process.

In the past, we have never paid too much attention to the actual stiffnesses of any given ribs. As we have always reused the original ribs, and,since we are in no position alter their strength, measuring the stiffness seemed secondary.

On the other hand, we have always used the inherant stiffness of the wood as our guide in the calulation of pressing cauls. using a couple of blocks clamped to the side of a blank caul, just about where the gaining starts on the ribs, we flex the rib to form an arch. Rather than being scientific about this stressing of the rib, we use our sense of wood to tell us what arc is proper for that rib. The rib should be stressed, but also feel like it could go a bit farther. this arc is traced as a basic pattern for all the ribs. We have tended to dish in the treble ribs a bit more, both because they can take it, and the treble is the zone of the board that simply must have crown to function. So we tend to err on the side of caution.

The drying and stabilization of the wood only takes a day or two. Its odd, but old wood seems to both take on and give off moisture at a very rapid pace. By the end of steaming day, the wood no longer looks wet, but if you handle it, it feels both heavy and cold to the touch. The next day the wood feels lighter, but still cool. the day after that the wood is light in weight and warm to the touch because evaporation has finished.

We have always used the dimensional change in the panel as our guide to when to press on the ribs. We find that 24 hours under the heat is enough time to shrink the board. This is the time of year that we avoided any bellywork because the temp needed to shift the wood is very high.

I would love to have a climate control system. It would allow us to regularize the enviroment we press in and we could ignore the weather. Even with climate controll, we would still run the space at around 100F. We use cow-hide glue, and that is best applied to well warmed pieces of wood, and the heated environment will help dry the board after we clean up the excess glue with water. This is where the woods ability to give off excess water so rapidly comes into play.

Thanks for the interest, I do appreciate it

By the way, I came across an old "Piano Atlas" by Sievers, 1868. Is this an available book, and should I digitize it?

Be well,
Craig

Hello Craig,
It has been a few weeks, any updates on the 5694 Bluthner, you care to share?
Carl

Sure,
So far work has concentrated on the board. The latest Photo barrage shows the reconstitution of the panel into a single unit and its preparation for pressing.

https://plus.google.com/photos/1054...5703804337607105?authkey=CLyok5PL08i19AE

As far as the date of the piano goes, we have been in touch with an expert in Ashburnham, and he assures us that according to recent research our serial number actually does come from 1870.