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I agree that it is not random at all. It is based on a different kind of order which is not related to the order of the music that the audience will hear. The first example was based on passages that all had the same type of fingering and finger motion which was causing me difficulty, so that I could practise the better motion in all of them. The idea that we can organize our practising around some other goal than the order of the music gives us a lot of choices.

Thank you for sharing this. It helps us see what you are doing, and also how it's working for you (We can surmise that it's going better than how you practised before, simply by the delight you project.) I liked your insertion of the relaxation element, since the physical is a major part of what I have to work on in my own practising.

Would you be willing to tweak this by adding one more element - the backward and pyramiding idea? It's a stone's throw from the Bernhard system you're trying out. Instead of going 47 - 51, you'd be going 51 - 47. I've done forward chunks like you're doing now, and backward ones. I think that you can gain an even greater advantage through backward.

Say you did m. 50 first, and then 49. As you get to the end of 49, you're approaching 50, which you know better, so you're moving into the familiar. I have even gone: beat 4, beat 3 - 4, beat 2 - 3 - 4, beat 1 - 2 - 3 - 4; maybe less than 2 minutes, but it makes a difference.

I can hear in your clip the same kinds of signs that I had when I worked forward, even if they're small. There's a little hesitation or slow-down as you get to the end of the section you have practised because you are moving into the unfamiliar. If you hesitate or flub anywhere, it's never the first notes, always the last. That's an effect of forward practising. The opposite happens with backward-pyramid. It's still what you're doing now in the sense of subdivided chunks, but in reverse order.

A question: You have calculated 12 weeks based on multiplying the rate of measures/day. When do you put in the musical elements for that: voicing, phrasing, exchange of which voice dominates, or whatever you want to put in? Or does that come after the 12 weeks?

Both pieces were easily enough within my means technically (I learned both pieces hands separate with relative ease), but I had no idea how coordination played a role in learning to play hands together and especially no idea as to how to acquire it.




That directly related to learning either piece of repertoire? Not particularly.




A lot of information regarding how to improvise at the piano and how to practice improvisation. My learning has been a bit scattered because I equally like improvisation (especially jazz) and classical music.




Correct. I don't consider my problems in trying to learn either of the two pieces (for the sake of argument, one level 6 and one level 3 piece, ABRSM) to be technical. They were rooted in coordination (some people consider coordination to be a technical issue, but for clarification and for all learning-intensive purposes, it's best to separate the two)




Funny enough, the second (level 3 abrsm) piece was an easy little entry in Schumann's Album For The Young that could easily be sightread by most.

Bobpickle, thank you for your answers. It gives me a better perspective on the things you're pursuing and how you write about them. It sounds like, as it is for many of us (me originally too), you were never given a way to approach working on a piece. When you do start getting approaches, the difference is so huge that it's almost like a new activity. At least that's how it was for me.

keystring, I am glad you posted. There is always the risk of misunderstanding, but we can continue discussing to reduce that risk, emphasize exploration and fluidity, and so on. The alternative it seems to me is to say nothing, or to restrict our conversation only to simple subjects that have no nuance or complexity. I prefer having the big complex conversations about subtle things.

I'll try saying something about my music, piano and practice background.

THE PAST

My first participation in music was learning and singing songs on the playground, before I started school: Frère Jacques, Do a Deer, Twinkle Twinkle, the Alphabet Song, and so on.

When I was 8, we moved from an apartment to a house and got my mother's childhood piano out of storage. Along with it came my mother's method books, so out of curiosity I started teaching myself piano by working through them.

We moved again, and at the new school there was the opportunity to learn instruments, so I chose flute. Learning fingering and the notes and rhythms on the page were easy for me. The biggest challenge for me (although mastered with practice) was breath control for the upper registers. Come to think of it, now that I don't play the flute a lot, that is the area I would need to work on to bring back up to par; the fingering is seared in my brain and I don't forget it.

Along the way I taught myself to play my sister's recorder using her fingering chart. She had had actual recorder lessons at school, but we moved before I got old enough to start recorder there. This fingering is not seared in my brain; I can remember the notes that have the same fingering as the flute, but have to fiddle around to try to find the other notes -- mostly accidentals and the second octave.

In the new house, we acquired a Reader's Digest song book with a wide collection of traditional and Tin Pan Alley songs, spanning several genres. We also eventually had other songbooks -- Joni Mitchell, Carole King, Godspell, Jesus Christ Superstar -- and sheet music for current hits. I played all of these on the piano. My approach was the intuitive method: play it over and over, getting better over time. I was perfectly happy, I read music easily, I found out by playing them what the songs should sound like.

Perhaps incidentally, because I was always singing the songs while I played, I'm able to sing and play at the same time. It wasn't until I read about it here on ABF that I learned that this can be hard for some people.

On flute, I didn't like practicing very much, but my approach was generally the same, except that on complex pieces I would isolate difficult sections for individual practice. This also worked fine for me. Except for a brief period of lessons in school in 5th and 6th grades, after that I was on my own with the flute. I'm grateful especially to my 5th grade flute teacher who in the course of 5 months of weekly 20 minute lessons, gave me sufficient fundamentals for me to build on on my own and to carry me up to All-State band as an alternate in my senior year. Until senior year, when an incredibly talented junior came on the scene, I was always first chair, so whatever I learned and however I was practicing was sufficient for me.

Over the years, my family spent a lot of time driving on vacations and day trips. My sister and I would take our songbook and sing through the songs in it, playing them first on recorder to find out how the tune sounded. We found them easy enough to play through correctly on the first or second time, so practice wasn't an issue. We both read music well, so that wasn't an issue either.

Along the way, I joined my church choir and eventually joined the high school chorus. I never learned anything about sight singing in these choirs though: it wasn't taught and we did no exercises that would have improved our abilities. Everything was taught by hearing it on the piano first. I could read the rhythms fine, but knowing how the tune should go was a mystery unless I heard it first. After I had heard and practiced it though, the score was useful to me in reminding me how it went. In fact I was in my 30s or 40s before I found out that some people could sing an unfamiliar tune straight from the score without hearing it first. This seemed like an incredible ability to me, and I have been on a slow (very slow) trajectory for the past decade or more trying to improve my ability to sightsing.

A bit more on THE PAST

Starting in high school, once a year in marching band for the Memorial Day parade, I would have to memorize my music. This was a horrible horrible difficult task for me. I didn't know any music theory to guide me in looking for patterns, I had no training to help me connect the sound of a tune to which notes I should play, I never practiced memorizing at any other time of year. I also had no idea that there was anything like those things I listed that could make memorization easier.

When I was in junior high, I had a friend who took piano lessons who would sometimes impromptu play some of her pieces for me. Of course, she didn't have her music with her, so she played from memory. This amazed me, but when I asked her how she did it, she said that memorization just happened for her without conscious effort.

Since I read music well, I didn't have any reason to do anything, whether by chance or design, that would have improved my ability to memorize.

This lets me play, since previously tension would stop me with pain. Often a practice session is just one beat, stop - check in with the body - command tension to go away, and resume. Keeping my shoulders relaxed a requires vigilance.



Absolutely, I just picked these chunks randomly, they seemed busy and involved, and the idea was to learn the end snippets and connect via the middle. Next week (or tonight) I'll start on the ending section, which won't be as difficult. Then connect from 47 to the end.
And, I'm aware of the idea since I decided to start at the end.



I'm beginning with a new teacher at the university in August, and the goal is to have something ready to start working with - so I chose, perhaps foolishly, these pieces. Even though it is not as pronounced as it will be, some elements of the voicing are there. I was a big fan of the Swingle Singers (remember them?) and I hear Bach vocally in my head. ... So I try to have ghosts of 'what will be' there from the very beginning.

And to answer the question of 'is it making a difference' ? YES! There's a high satisfaction level in 'getting' something measurable and tangible each practice session, and the ability to play mentally is improving. As I have said, I played very little in the 20 years prior to getting this instrument, and an internet search of 'how to play without pain' started me back. Reading Chang's writings made me think maybe I too could play 'fast' and relaxed.

All I knew for sure was that what I was doing previously wasn't working!!

I'm also convinced - mostly through personal history - that I don't know what I'm doing yet, after all, it's just a little over a week and I'm not good at this method, but I'll figure it out!! If you'll notice in a few of the practice diary entries there were a couple of sessions where I felt it would have been better not to have even started. (Not that anybody ever has days like that *cough* )

Meanwhile, if something better comes along, I'll go after that!

Peace!

Forrest

woodog, seeing how you laid out your practice diary is helpful to me.

Regarding learning Fugues (or any counterpoint): one of the principles Bernhard uses when learning or teaching counterpoint is to wait to start HT until the piece is completely learned HS. And in learning each HS part, he first learns each voice individually (but being sure to use the fingering that will be used when all voices are being played). After the individual voices are learned, then he starts putting together the voices, practicing the voices in all possible pairs, then in triples, then all four voices together (assuming a four voice piece). Middle voices that pass between the hands add an extra ripple: learn them both as a complete voice passing between the hands, and also practice them playing just the HS part that falls in each hand when putting together each hand HS.

If I find the post again where I read about this on pianostreet, I'll post a link.

This delay of HT until after HS is completely learned is specific to counterpoint; normally Bernhard would put HT after each little bit of HS is learned.

Yeah..... (Woodog says this in a hedging his bets kind of way, even while describing it in the third person)

And then there's the told you 'I wasn't good at it...... ')

But while writing this has to confess that it looks like an awful amount of work. So...... (He does the shifty eyes thing)

Sigh, tell ya what... Thanks for holding my feet to the fire. This next week I'll write out the sections I plan to practice that evening .... In the morning. In for a penny, in for a pound.

Forrest

This is my first read that Bernhard has principles for learning Fugues. Given the sheer volume of information on the topic of practice, it will be beneficial to build up an ebook on this subject matter instead of these scattering threads and posts.

If you look at the Open Source or Wikipedia community, they have a 'structured' product that is being developed continuously with everybody's contributions. Why cannot PW adopt similar approach ?

Something else to add, there's real merit in having pieces prepare you in a logical fashion, and therein lies a HUGE value in having a knowledgeable teacher.

I think this method will work particularly well for pieces chosen in a stepping stone manner.

Oh, another thing... Setting a limit on the time, vowing to stop (or having a very slow run through, h.s. or h.t. - as per Chang ) after time's up or after you lose focus ... Well, for me it has the delightful effect of saturating my thoughts during my movement break (5 min), before returning to the keyboard for something different.

Best,

Forrest

JosephAC, I appreciate your interest in this method, but unfortunately none of us are ready to write an organized ebook containing all Bernhard information. I expect that those of us who are interested in this method are going to keep talking about and sharing about it as bits and pieces of the method come up or seem relevant, both in discussions primarily about this method and in practice discussions that are not restricted by method, as we continue to try to understand it better ourselves. Consider this primary research for us. This is not the "Bernhard, organized in 49 easy lessons" thread. That thread may emerge at some time in the future.

One of the reasons in a fugue (or invention, or sinfonia) to learn the voices separately is so that you know and can hear each voice clearly so that when you put the voices together you can then work to bring out the appropriate voice at a given time.

I haven't been able to find the pianostreet thread with Bernhard's ideas about fugues, but this thread about learning a Bach 2-part Invention may give you some ideas in terms of motivic (for the fugue, thematic) analysis and how to use it as a stage in learning the fugue.

I'm not sure he mentions it in the Invention thread, but he mentions in the Fugue post that I can't find about writing out a score in four parts/staffs, one voice per staff. Write in the fingering as it will be when all voices are played together, though. From the four part score, then write it out again but for each voice only include the thematic material in that voice (whether in original form, inverted, retrograde, inverted retrogade, augmented, or diminished). Then you learn the motivic/thematic material first in a voice, and after that add the rest of the material in that voice. He does write about that in the Invention thread.

If you do this, you may find that you know the fugue inside out upside down and sideways. Writing out these scores, or at least identifying the information on your single score, is part of his preparation step 1.

[ETA: I think this means that another step when you finally get to HT is to first play two voices together, but only the motivic/thematic material. Then when that is mastered add in the other material for those two voices. Lather, rinse and repeat, building up voice combinations. Must. Find. Fugue. Thread.]

I'm going to try applying what Bernhard teaches over here:
Practicing what Bernhard teaches: a workshop thread

when i first start a new song and im not familiar with it. first i have a go at the melody at tempo and usually i do OK. that gives me an idea, musically, how its supposed to sound. Then I have a go VERY slow, with both hands. I haven't come across anything yet that i need to do right hand then left, then hands together... im sure i will, but at my level now nothing is really that complicated. for songs that swap left hand chords often, i'll forget completely about the song and just practice my hand swapping between those chords and try to go as quickly as I can to get a handle on it.

I always do a few hanon exercises as well . i LOVE the technical exercises.

No piano teacher can or should teach by trying to throw all the information necessary to know how to play piano at somebody at once.

My best suggestion is to keep these 9 link indexes in your back pocket and whenever you have a question, explore relevant links based on included descriptions to help find some sort of answer.

• http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,9238.msg93690.html#msg93690
• http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,9159.0.html
• http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=12590.msg135990#msg135990
• http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7603.msg76044.html#msg76044
• http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/inde...f/index.php?topic=5767.msg56133#msg56133
• http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,5352.msg50998.html#msg50998
• http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=8491.msg86440#msg86440

In this thread Bernhard talks about repeated note groups, and how they are the most powerful tool in the bag

I finally found an explanation!!

Repeated note groups as practice technique described here

This is similar to Chang's chord attack - or as my old teacher commented when stopping in on me practicing the other day 'blocking', but with particular emphasis on tactile interaction between the fingers and the escapement level of the keys.

The Mozart sonata I'm working on has many, many rapid arpeggios in both the r.h and l.h.
So I'm going to integrate this approach more fully (I already use Changs chord attack to develop velocity... But the explanation in the link above takes it to a more complete sensory level)

I'll do another post at some point showing the practice and how it's coming along.

Forrest

Btw, I hope some of you will post a practice video of what you are working on and how you are going about it.

About Fugues or polyphony: I've read the same idea from a number of teachers now, the first having been John v.d. Brooke here in PW. If I remember correctly, John has his students trace the lines of voices (soprano, alto etc. as we might call them), seeing what they are doing before ever starting to practice. You will have melodic lines that come in one after the other, repeating the same phrase in staggered order, or responding with a countermelody. There is a back and forth conversation between voices, and each "melody" has its own flow like such phrases do. (When we speak, our voices rise and fall, otherwise we end up with robotic speech). The other thing he has them do is to recognize the figures, how they are inverted or stretched or decorated. After they have a full understanding from studying, then he has them start working on the piece.

Other teachers may have an extra copy of the music on which you can mark these lines in different colours in order to trace them.

I was listening to this kind of music a few years ago. What struck me is that some pianists played Bach as if it was a series of chords and chord progressions. One person who really brings out the different voices is Horowitz.