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#2121166 - 07/21/13 05:30 PM Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range
bill5 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/13
Posts: 23
Obviously prices can vary a bit so that's a ballpark...basically here's my situation:

NOT a "pro" just looking for something that has the best combination of quality sound, bells/whistles and price. I do hope to use it to record an album at some point, though not in the immediate future, so the ability to have/create other instrumentation as well as sufficient polyphony, while not the only or necessarily most important feature, does matter.

I realize this is kinda vague but general opinions and experiences appreciated. For ex, some impressions on research I've done so far on brands, very generally:

Casio: very good sound, "action" OK, durability debatable?
Yamaha: I hear they can be kind of harsh on the higher end sound-wise-?
Kawai: extremely good sound, but might be out of my range
Roland: also great sound but some keypad issues and also pricey
Williams: kind of does everything pretty good but nothing great

etc and so on......

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#2121172 - 07/21/13 05:34 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
kapelli Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 380
Loc: Poland
In that price only Casio and Korg if you want decent action.

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#2121175 - 07/21/13 05:41 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: bill5I
Casio: very good sound, "action" OK, durability debatable?
Yamaha: I hear they can be kind of harsh on the higher end sound-wise-?
Kawai: extremely good sound, but might be out of my range
Roland: also great sound but some keypad issues and also pricey
Williams: kind of does everything pretty good but nothing great


Haha, brand generalizations. Good times. Each brand has different levels of products, some of which may defy the following, but here are my generalizations as an observer of the market (but with no claim of impartiality):

Casio has made low-end stuff for a long time. We used to always say bad things about their action and sound. They've been innovating a lot lately though. Both action and sound are getting better and they have introduced some real nice technological features. I think a lot of the positive feedback about their action has to do with the fact that it's good compared to their last iteration. Excellent bang for the buck, and always has been.

Yamaha has a huge portion of the market, so in some sense it's a standard. They tend to be the easiest to find and often the most affordable for a given quality. Their pianos now seem almost exactly like those of a decade ago or so. Good pianos, but not much innovation in recent years. I think they sound good and play well. In many ways they define expectations for digital pianos.

Kawai has been innovating a lot lately as well. There are a lot of fans of their actions around here. Soundwise they are always getting better. Personally I don't care for the Kawai sound, particularly in the older models. Love the action, though, and this is the brand I own. My view is that Kawais are more expensive than Yamahas but cheaper than Rolands. They used to be cheaper. The biggest problem with Kawai is that it can be hard to find a Kawai retailer near you.

Roland has put out higher end stuff for a long time. They have several actions, many of which are lighter than those of the above mentioned manufacturers. Great actions, though. Their PHAIII is very quick and responsive as opposed to the meaty and sometimes sluggish action you can find in other DP's. The flip side of that is that they tend to be a little harder hitting at the bottom. I wouldn't diss them. Very popular among gigging musicians and have an excellent longstanding reputation. They have made more innovations in sound than some other brands (SuperNatural) and we often discuss them as having an edge over other manufacturers in this area. My issue is that they tend to be expensive. There are no cheap Rolands.

Williams makes uber-low-end stuff. I have never played a Williams that was acceptable in any respect in my opinion. At every price point I've seen, Casio dominates them completely.

We used to have the big three manufacturers (Yamaha, Roland, Kawai) we discussed, but now it's Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, Casio. No one discusses Williams.

Your title indicates $500-$800 range. That gives you two options: Casio and Yamaha. The usual suspects are the Casio PX-150 or PX-350 and the Yamaha P-105 and if you can afford it, the Yamaha P-155. Reach just a little more and you get the Kawai EP3. Casio action doesn't vary by level. The Yamaha P105 has their cheaper action and the P155 has their more expensive (but not universally preferred) version.


Edited by gvfarns (07/21/13 05:58 PM)

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#2121184 - 07/21/13 05:57 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 1986
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: bill5
Williams: kind of does everything pretty good but nothing great


Where did you find a Williams that does anything pretty good?
Shopping in the Twilight Zone?


You want a Casio.
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2121195 - 07/21/13 06:12 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: gvfarns]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2610
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
We used to have the big three manufacturers (Yamaha, Roland, Kawai) we discussed, but now it's Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, Casio. No one discusses Williams.


Except for Gyro, of course:

Williams Overture

Scroll down in the thread above or just read the entire post, quoted here:

"I have an Overture that I bought sight-unseen online in 2009 for $600. The longer I play it, the better I like it. I've had an expensive acoustic upright in storage for many yrs. I bought it new in the early 1980's for about $6000, a huge sum for an upright in those days--a similar model today would be in the ~$20,000 price range. That upright is likely going to stay in storage forever, because I like the Overture better.

If it arrives at your house in the factory box, it's going to be very heavy, about 150 lbs. or more, and although one person can open it and assemble it, it would probably be better if you had another person to help, especially if you've never assembled anything this size before. The keyboard unit weighs about 80-90 lbs. and you'll have to lift in several feet in the air in order to place it on top of the stand assembly. This is an economy digital and so the fit and finish is a little rough in places, making assembly something of an adventure.

But it's a beauty when assembled. The pedals are highly polished brass. The felt trim is a bright red. The sliding key cover is very nice, equal to that on the best digitals. And the polished silver WW Williams medallion is very impressive, making the S&S logo look tacky by comparison. I'd recommend having a surge protector that you plug the adaptor into. Leave the on button on on the keyboard and use the surge protector to turn the piano on and off.


I like the Overture and use it to play anything, from jazz improv to big concertos. I feel no need to upgrade to anything in the future, as I find this adequate for any playing."

Edited by Gyro (07/04/11 03:44 PM)

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#2121201 - 07/21/13 06:16 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
kapelli Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 380
Loc: Poland
Guys, why all of you always forgote bout Korg, which has SP170s and SP250 and SP280 pianos? I mean, in that price it's the real competitor and sound for me is much above Casio.

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#2121204 - 07/21/13 06:21 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 1986
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Why do we have to introduce Gyro's drug induced hallucinations into this?

Yes, Korg is a competitor. Definitely. Leave it to the OP to decide for himself. I always liked the SP250 keys. Klunky and heavy, yes. Just something that made them feel realistic.
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2121215 - 07/21/13 06:52 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: rnaple]
bill5 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/13
Posts: 23
Originally Posted By: rnaple
Originally Posted By: bill5
Williams: kind of does everything pretty good but nothing great


Where did you find a Williams that does anything pretty good?
In my research. Pay attention. wink PS never tried one, again just based on what I'm hearing out there. And I take any opinions with a grain of salt, but I'm not in a big enough area where all of these are in some store that I can try out so.....

Thx to all for the replies, any other info/etc appreciated.

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#2121219 - 07/21/13 06:55 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3153
Originally Posted By: bill5
NOT a "pro" just looking for something that has the best combination of quality sound, bells/whistles and price.
...
the ability to have/create other instrumentation as well as sufficient polyphony, while not the only or necessarily most important feature, does matter.

Assuming you do want a piano-style weighted action, I think the only boards in your price range that have a wide variety of sounds and other bells-and-whistles are the Yamaha DGX-640 (soon to be replaced with DGX-650) and Casio PX-350. Of the two, if portability doesn't matter, I think I'd go for the Yamaha overall, even though I prefer Casio's action. But if you can stretch the budget, the Casio PX-5S is a lot more versatile than the PX-350, and is a better MIDI controller if you'll want to integrate sounds from a computer or iPad, for example.

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#2121279 - 07/21/13 11:00 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: anotherscott]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1172
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Quote:
. . . NOT a "pro" just looking for something that has the best combination of quality sound, bells/whistles and price. I do hope to use it to record an album at some point, though not in the immediate future, so the ability to have/create other instrumentation as well as sufficient polyphony, while not the only or necessarily most important feature, does matter. . .


First question:

. . . Does it matter how closely it approaches, in sound and
. . . action, an acoustic piano?

If "Yes", Casio PX-350 and Yamaha DGX640 (is there now a DGX650?) might be good bets. I don't know if the Korg SP-series has a good set of non-piano voices; if they do, add them to the list.

If "No" -- especially if you don't need 88 keys -- consider a "ROMpler" -- Korg Kross (available soon), or Yamaha MOX6 (there may be cheaper options), or Korg Krome (maybe outside your budget). Those usually have sequencers, EQ's, and other goodies for "song production".

The Casio PX-350 has a built-in 16-track MIDI recorder, but no sequencer and no EQ. The Casio PX5S does have a sequencer and EQ, but no loudspeakers -- so either you use headphones, or spend money for a speaker(s), or use whatever speakers you already have.

Your budget is tight, for what you want to do, but not impossible.

. Charles

PS -- bias -- I own a PX-350.

PPS --
Quote:
just looking for something that has the best combination of quality sound, bells/whistles and price.


Those three things trade-off against one another. There's no "best combination" -- you must decide how important each of the qualities (sound, bells/ whistles, price) is, _to you_.

Sorry to belabor the obvious.

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#2121280 - 07/21/13 11:00 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
bill5 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/13
Posts: 23
Curious: what's the advantage you spoke of at the end ie better MIDI controller, ie specifically why is the 5S better that way?

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#2121289 - 07/21/13 11:24 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: Charles Cohen]
bill5 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/13
Posts: 23
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen

The Casio PX-350 has a built-in 16-track MIDI recorder, but no sequencer

?? Maybe I'm missing how you're using this term-?

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#2121349 - 07/22/13 02:45 AM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1172
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
I don't think there's any way you can tell a PX-350:

. . . Play this phrase,
. . . . . and keep playing it until I say 'stop'.

To me, that's the most fundamental action of a "sequencer".

I haven't looked at the PX5S specs in detail. But it allows things like 4-way splits of the keyboard, real-time control of MIDI parameters by front-panel knobs/sliders, and I'm pretty sure it _does_ have a sequencer.

Some of the lines between "synth", "workstation", "arranger piano" are getting fuzzy. The PX-350 is clearly _not_ a synth (not enough freedom to change the built-in tones). I haven't played with the built-in recording capabilities enough to see if it qualifies as a 'workstation'. It _does_ qualify as an "arranger keyboard"; you can dial-up a backing band (with horns and drums) very easily, and control harmonies with one or two left-hand fingers.

If you want to watch some videos, 'Piano Man Chuck' has several on the PX-350, including one on how to use the multi-track recorder to build up a song.

The speeding-up of PC's, and some inexpensive DAW (digital audio workstation) software, has made it practical to ignore the built-in "workstation" capabilities of keyboards, and do everything on the computer except actually playing the keys. I've never played in that world -- other people will know about the trade-offs.

This forum is strongly biased toward pianistic realism. For pop composing, there are other goals worth considering, and something like a MOX6 has a _lot_ of power.

. Charles

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#2121385 - 07/22/13 05:54 AM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: Charles Cohen]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3153
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen


. . . Play this phrase,
. . . . . and keep playing it until I say 'stop'.

To me, that's the most fundamental action of a "sequencer".

Doesn't that better describe an arpeggiator?

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#2121389 - 07/22/13 06:07 AM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3153
Originally Posted By: bill5
Curious: what's the advantage you spoke of at the end ie better MIDI controller, ie specifically why is the 5S better that way?

Having both pitch and mod wheels;

and assignable knobs and sliders that can be defined to control whatever MIDI parameter you want;

and the ability to define buttons that can call up whatever internal or external sounds you want, individually or in combination (split and/or layered);

and having both USB and standard 5-pin DIN connections for connecting other MIDI equipment.

(In case it's not clear, "external" sounds refers to using the keyboard to play sounds that are not built into the keyboard, i.e. those residing in a separate sound module, computer, iPad, etc.)

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#2121395 - 07/22/13 06:41 AM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
Marco M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/12
Posts: 451
Loc: Europe
Korg SP-250

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#2121456 - 07/22/13 10:22 AM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: anotherscott]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2323
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: anotherscott

Doesn't that better describe an arpeggiator?

It does if you're playing modern pop/rock music! crazy

An arpeggiator will normally step through the notes in a few chords, not a whole phrase made of several chords and perhaps a melody line.


Edited by spanishbuddha (07/22/13 10:23 AM)

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#2121473 - 07/22/13 11:02 AM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
Big McLargehuge Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/18/13
Posts: 43
Apologies if you stated one way or another, but considering used boards will open a lot more options in that range. I like to buy from guitar center used, you get 30 days to try it out and you can return to a local GC. I don't know if you live near a store.

Right now there is a Yamaha cp50 on there for 899, that seems like a good price if it's in good condition. If I was in a position to afford a board right now I wouldn't be telling you this smile Mox8s have been on there for 900 and up. Prices can vary wildly depending on the store.

As far as new ones, I liked the Casio px350 (iirc) and the px5s (though I don't like the white plastic). Both felt very nice. I also liked the Yamaha p105 I tried, I don't consider it a stage piano (they don't either) but the action was good. Felt better than the mox or p95, even though I'm told they are the same. That's the thing, either get used with a return policy or be able to try it out, as reading about actions is not like trying them. Then again, it's been said that you can adjust to anything and I think that's pretty accurate too. As you can see action is important to me, as much as sound.

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#2121559 - 07/22/13 03:40 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
Tritium Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/13
Posts: 179
Loc: Western MA, USA
Originally Posted By: bill5
Obviously prices can vary a bit so that's a ballpark...basically here's my situation:

NOT a "pro" just looking for something that has the best combination of quality sound, bells/whistles and price. I do hope to use it to record an album at some point, though not in the immediate future, so the ability to have/create other instrumentation as well as sufficient polyphony, while not the only or necessarily most important feature, does matter.

I realize this is kinda vague but general opinions and experiences appreciated. For ex, some impressions on research I've done so far on brands, very generally:

Casio: very good sound, "action" OK, durability debatable?
Yamaha: I hear they can be kind of harsh on the higher end sound-wise-?
Kawai: extremely good sound, but might be out of my range
Roland: also great sound but some keypad issues and also pricey
Williams: kind of does everything pretty good but nothing great

etc and so on......


Hmmm, I would classify the new Casio PX-X50 action to be "very good", rather than just "ok".

In any event, given your specifications and price range, I strongly urge you to try out either the Casio PX-350 (which has built-in speakers), or the Casio PX-5S (just a bit higher than your top price range). Both feature the same key action. In this price range, it is my humble opinion that no other manufacturer offers the quality and tone of Casio's new PX series. The Casio PX-5S is geared more for the gigging musician, and has a more bells and whistles than your typical digital piano.

In interests of full disclosure, I am a very happy, new owner of the Casio PX-850.

If you are not concerned about portability, and plan on playing and recording on your digital piano at home, than I wouldn't hesitate in recommending the PX-850. Nice looking, plays great, sounds great, and has a fantastic speaker system built right in. Note, the integral sound system in the PX-850 is more powerful and higher quality than a slab (portable) style DP...as would be expected.

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#2121568 - 07/22/13 04:03 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
Scott Hamlin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 547
The PX-5S has a phrase sequencer, not a traditional multi-track sequencer that you would find in a workstation. Phrases can be chained into songs, however. PX-5S also has an arpeggiator.

In addition to what was mentioned above, the PX-5S makes a better controller as it has assignable knobs and sliders for real time control over sound parameters.
_________________________
http://DulceLabs.com
Sound, Video, Design

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#2121638 - 07/22/13 07:25 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: Scott Hamlin]
Possum SP280Krome Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 616
Right now my favorite is the Korg SP280-I paid $560 after a 20% coupon. I really LOVE the speakers and piano tone. The action is decent for my use but not very popular.

I use for the road a PX-130 and I like the action and expressiveness on it. Although it is discontinued, if anywhere had them new I would recommend trying it out.

I had the Yamaha P95 for 2 years and prefer the PX-130.
_________________________
Roland Juno Gi
Casio PX-130
Korg Krome 61
Korg SP280

Rokit KRK 6 monitors
MXL V67G microphone

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#2121712 - 07/22/13 10:57 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: Charles Cohen]
bill5 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/13
Posts: 23
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen
I don't think there's any way you can tell a PX-350:

. . . Play this phrase,
. . . . . and keep playing it until I say 'stop'.

Oh OK. I don't care much about that. smile

Quote:
This forum is strongly biased toward pianistic realism.
Thx for the warning. wink I'm all for that but frankly doubt I am a serious enough player to notice much diff from one to the other.

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#2121717 - 07/22/13 11:09 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
bill5 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/13
Posts: 23
Originally Posted By: Big McLargehuge
Apologies if you stated one way or another, but considering used boards
Thx for idea but not interested. Not sure what I'm getting that way - if I'm spending all this $ I want a warranty. smile

Thx for the other replies as well, all appreciated. I tried a Kawai today, mostly because that's all the local store sold and just wanted to try to compare to others when/if I ever find them. I made the probably dumb mistake of trying one WAY out of my range...oh man if only I could afford. Great sound, truckloads of bells/whistles etc. The action I thought was fine for my modest needs but if I'm to be picky, had a little too much "pop" on the rebound. Like I couldn't live with it, lol

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#2121862 - 07/23/13 10:31 AM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: bill5
The action I thought was fine for my modest needs but if I'm to be picky, had a little too much "pop" on the rebound.


This was a CA-65 or CA-95 I presume? We have had a few people complain about key bounce on that action, though many people think it's as good as digital piano actions get.

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#2122100 - 07/23/13 11:21 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
bill5 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/13
Posts: 23
no I think CP139 was the model #.

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#2122106 - 07/23/13 11:47 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8862
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
...which uses the 'RM3 Grand' keyboard action, as found in in the CA93/CA63.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2122485 - 07/24/13 07:26 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: Kawai James]
bill5 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/13
Posts: 23
Then I feel a little better about not having that piano. A little. smile

Best Buy had the Casio 135 - but not "out" so I could check it. Grr

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#2122521 - 07/24/13 09:01 PM Re: Digital Piano advice, $500-800 range [Re: bill5]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3786
Loc: North Carolina
Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere's Gyro! smile

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