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#2121884 - 07/23/13 11:36 AM General Intermediate RCM questions
Musilove Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/05/12
Posts: 16
I was doing some theory questions on music analysis, when I came across a dilemma.

It was a piece that had one sharp in the key signature. Looking at it, I knew it either had to be G major or its relative minor, E minor. After scanning through, I found there were two D sharps and one C sharp. So I wrote down that the piece was in E minor.

Then there was another question that asked what was a selected triad in the piece. I did it, and it was D major. The next question after that said "The triad at letter B [which is D major] is the:..." and it gave you three choices: tonic, subdominant, and dominant.

If the piece was in E minor, a D major triad would not be any one of those three options. Since there has to be a correct answer, that would mean that the piece must be in G major.

NOW here is the question: Is it possible for a piece/excerpt to be in a major key, even though they have the accidentals of a minor

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#2121895 - 07/23/13 11:56 AM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2370
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Yes, a piece can modulate to any other key within the piece.

Is the harmony of the opening measure G major or E minor or is it perhaps the dominant, D major or B major/minor? The last measure is typically the best indicator of the tonic but a minor key piece can frequently end in the tonic major. What's the harmony of the last measure, G major or E minor/E major?

Accidentals within the piece are only an indicator of the minor key when supported by other signs otherwise they may be simply chromaticism.

If the piece were in E minor, the first D's are all likely to be sharped not just a few within the piece. How far in were the sharped D's and were there any natural D's before then?

The dominant B major or B minor would be present rather than D major, the dominant of G major. What's the underlying harmonic progression?

The C sharp suggests the piece may have modulated to the dominant D major from a tonic of G major. C sharp might suggest D minor. An unlikely modulation from either G major or E minor without some other intervening colouration.

_________________________
Richard

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#2128885 - 08/06/13 10:41 AM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: zrtf90]
Musilove Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/05/12
Posts: 16
Thank you for your input it has greatly helped me.

I also have another question in mind. I have been doing the published exams, and there was one question where they give you a few measures and you have to write the appropriate cadence at the end.


in my situation, the fragment is in D flat major, and the cadence is a chord with a B flat going into another chord with an A flat at the end of the fragment. Now in D flat major, the only chord that has a B flat is the IV chord consisting of Gb, Bb, and Db.

Now there are two chords with an Ab and that is the V and I chords of D flat.

My question is whether, for these RCM examinations, there can be two answers. In my situation, I have a choice between an imperfect cadence IV-V, or a plagal cadence IV-I. Is this possible, or is there only one correct answer?

NOTE: the fragment only consists of three measures, and I am not studying Harmony or counterpoint yet.

Please answer!!!!!!!

Thanks

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#2128912 - 08/06/13 11:54 AM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Is IV-V one of the types of cadences they test at this level? I think of the RCM Rudiments exams as testing three cadences:

V-I perfect
I-V imperfect
IV-I plagal

Do they include other types of imperfect, such as IV-V?

There are certainly other triads besides IV that have a Bb in the key of Db major: ii and vi. But I think you are right to discern that these chords also are not included in the types of cadences they test at this level.

Are these the Rudiments exams you're working on? What level (Basic, Intermediate, Advanced)?
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#2128916 - 08/06/13 12:07 PM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
Andy Platt Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 2390
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: Musilove
in my situation, the fragment is in D flat major, and the cadence is a chord with a B flat going into another chord with an A flat at the end of the fragment. Now in D flat major, the only chord that has a B flat is the IV chord consisting of Gb, Bb, and Db.

Now there are two chords with an Ab and that is the V and I chords of D flat.

My question is whether, for these RCM examinations, there can be two answers. In my situation, I have a choice between an imperfect cadence IV-V, or a plagal cadence IV-I. Is this possible, or is there only one correct answer?


Yes both are possible. But in the absence of other information, I would say that the plagal cadence is correct as it is more final. Obviously if you know how the piece continues that might change but you don't have that luxury.

It could also me that the melody gives clues as to what is expected but without understanding harmonization that would be tricky.


This also assumes that you can't use ii, and vi both of which have Bb; or iii which would also have Ab.
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#2128918 - 08/06/13 12:14 PM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2370
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
If I understand this correctly you have the last two notes, Bb and Ab and you have to provide chords to form a cadence.

If the fragment ends on Bb -> Ab and you're in Db major, that's not a final cadence (so it won't be plagal) it's an imperfect one. In a final cadence (in an exam) the melody would finish on Db.

There shouldn't be two answers in an exam with multiple choice questions.

OT: It's possible to pass multiple choice papers without reading the questions and get a higher score than a candidate who knows his onions but suffers from exam nerves.

If they want to test you they can ask open questions where you can demonstrate reasoning (more than giving the right answers) but then the marking requires thinking and more expense.

I'm not cynical! smile
_________________________
Richard

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#2128925 - 08/06/13 12:30 PM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: PianoStudent88]
Musilove Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/05/12
Posts: 16
Yes, I am working on Advanced.

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#2128928 - 08/06/13 12:36 PM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: zrtf90]
Musilove Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/05/12
Posts: 16
No, the top notes in the treble clef are Bb and Ab. You have to complete the chords by adding the notes "below the bracketed notes" (in this case, Bb and Ab). So it could be, let us say, the V chord of Db major in an inversion with Ab as the top note.

This is also isn't multiple choice.

So I am still wondering. Can it be, since the test and I lack the knowledge involving harmonization, in this case, either plagal or imperfect?

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#2128932 - 08/06/13 12:48 PM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Richard, I believe I have seen RCM exam examples ending on the I chord where the melody note is not the tonic. I'll have to check my books and exam bank tonight.

Musilove, there is of course the difference between what you might choose to do if you were writing and harmonizing your own melody or a preexisting melody, and the more limited set of basic choices that the exam is testing for. But you seem to have a good grasp of that distinction.

Which exam is this (Year, Month)?
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#2128934 - 08/06/13 12:48 PM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11675
Loc: Canada
Musilove, do you have the text that prepares you for these exams? They have checklists for finding the key. There is the original book "Elementary Rudiments of Music" by Barbara Wharram, and "Sound Advice" which is a spin-off of that book, split into three levels.
Originally Posted By: Musilove

It was a piece that had one sharp in the key signature. Looking at it, I knew it either had to be G major or its relative minor, E minor. After scanning through, I found there were two D sharps and one C sharp. So I wrote down that the piece was in E minor.

There are a number of things to check for determining the key (found in those books which is why I mentioned them).
- The piece will tend to end in the Tonic, usually with V-I or V7-I, and the final melody note will tend to be the tonic note. So if it is in E minor, your final chord would be Em, you'll probably see B7-E (with D# sharped as an accidental), and the final melody note is probably E. If it is in G major, your final chords will probably be D7-G, final chord is G, final melody note is probably G.

Quote:

Then there was another question that asked what was a selected triad in the piece. I did it, and it was D major. The next question after that said "The triad at letter B [which is D major] is the:..." and it gave you three choices: tonic, subdominant, and dominant.

This pretty well gives you a clue that the piece can't be in E minor, or that question wouldn't exist - unless you got the chord wrong (unlikely). So as "exam strategy" I'd go back to the original and recheck the key that it's in. If you were only going by accidental, that is not enough because accidentals can be due to chromaticism. The text has 5 things to consider in its checklist.

Quote:

NOW here is the question: Is it possible for a piece/excerpt to be in a major key, even though they have the accidentals of a minor

Yes, absolutely. You will get into some of this at the next level, harmony theory. Unfortunately the RCM just gives dry rudiments at the first level, so we don't have much context. Here are some examples: Supposing you've written a piece in G major and have lots of G major chords, but you want to create a mood - you might swing between G major and G minor chords to create that mood or make the music interesting. Your B would become Bb with an accidental. Supposing you want your melody to climb up from G to B but you want it to slither up chromatically. You might write G, G#, A, A#, B - You'll end up with two accidentals which have nothing to do with function.

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#2128941 - 08/06/13 01:01 PM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11675
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Musilove
No, the top notes in the treble clef are Bb and Ab. You have to complete the chords by adding the notes "below the bracketed notes" (in this case, Bb and Ab). So it could be, let us say, the V chord of Db major in an inversion with Ab as the top note.

This is also isn't multiple choice.

So I am still wondering. Can it be, since the test and I lack the knowledge involving harmonization, in this case, either plagal or imperfect?

That's a poorly done question and like everyone says, there are indeed two possible answers. They should accept either answer. Don't you also write down the type of cadence? If so I can't see how they could dispute either one. I would opt for Imperfect because it's more likely that they're after Perfect and Imperfect, and because it's more likely for a melody to stop at the 5th degree in an Imperfect cadence, than for it to stop on the 5th degree note at the end of a piece that ends in a Plagal cadence (which is also less usual).

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#2129339 - 08/07/13 09:50 AM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: keystring]
Musilove Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/05/12
Posts: 16
Thanks.

Also, another question just hit me.

At the end of the exam, there should be a page with an excerpt from a piece and they give you a few questions regarding its analysis.

So my question is how to determine the key of a piece. I don't think it's as simple as checking out the key signature and searching for accidentals.

For example: I am given a piece with one sharp in the key signature. I skim through, and I find many C sharps. To be exact, there is only one C in the entire excerpt that is not sharp. Then there is the odd D sharp and F natural accidentals, which I think is of no importance.

So in this case, is it possible for the excerpt to be in D major, or any other key, even if the key signature says differently? What would be the answer to this type of question?

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#2129356 - 08/07/13 10:35 AM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
For an excerpt with 1 sharp, but many accidental C sharps, I would check where it begins and ends, but a possibility is that it is in G major, with a large section where it has modulated (or at least is temporarily visting) to the dominant, D major.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2129414 - 08/07/13 12:55 PM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11675
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Musilove


At the end of the exam, there should be a page with an excerpt from a piece and they give you a few questions regarding its analysis.

So my question is how to determine the key of a piece. I don't think it's as simple as checking out the key signature and searching for accidentals.

For example: I am given a piece with one sharp in the key signature. I skim through, and I find many C sharps. To be exact, there is only one C in the entire excerpt that is not sharp. Then there is the odd D sharp and F natural accidentals, which I think is of no importance.

So in this case, is it possible for the excerpt to be in D major, or any other key, even if the key signature says differently? What would be the answer to this type of question?

The RCM textbook (Wharram) gives a checklist of about 5 things. I described some of them in my first post here. You seem to be looking only for accidentals. One thing you should look for are V-I or V7-I chords. The music will probably end this way.

So for your piece with one sharp, it will be either in G major or E minor. If G major, it will probably end on a G chord and very likely the melody note will be G. You will probably see D-G or D7-G as chords. If E minor it will probably end on an Em chord (sometimes an E chord because of a thing called the Picard 3rd but I don't think they'd throw that in), and also B, so it would end B-Em, B7-Em, and rarely B-E (chords).

Often the tonic is established in the beginning so you might have V-I. You may have I IV V. Determine which chords make up I, IV and V for both the relative majors and minors of a key.

I'm trying to remember back to the RCM rudiments exams. I don't think they had modulations, but it's too long ago. PianoStudent88, yours was much more recent. Do you know if they did?

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#2129420 - 08/07/13 01:05 PM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
I'll have to review my practice tests to see what they show. I don't think they tested modulations explicitly, as in "to what key has this excerpt modulated." But they may include modulations implicitly via accidentals in excerpts.

I'll try to remember to check tonight.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2129423 - 08/07/13 01:15 PM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
Musilove Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/05/12
Posts: 16
When transposing a passage from a French horn in F to concert pitch, does it matter where in the octave I transpose that French horn in F to?

This is an advanced rudiments question

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#2129426 - 08/07/13 01:21 PM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Horn in F means that when a C is written, an F sounds. That's given in the name "in F". However, you have to memorize that for French horn this F is a fifth below the written C (rather than a fourth above, for example). Thus to transpose to concert pitch, you must transpose down a perfect fifth. No choice about octave.
_________________________
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#2129801 - 08/08/13 10:08 AM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
Musilove Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/05/12
Posts: 16
So I have amassed a few other questions I had come across:

1. How does one write an augmented unison?

2. Just to clarify, when the question asks to invert an interval into another clef, do they mean to transpose it inverted into the other clef?

3. Do we use a double rest in four-two time to mark a complete measure of rest, or do we still use a whole rest?

4. In simple and compound time, is it possible to join beats 1,2, and 3 into a single rest?

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#2129813 - 08/08/13 10:39 AM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Musilove
1. How does one write an augmented unison?

Images for augmented unison. Write the lower note, and then next to it the upper note. E.g. F, then F#. Or G# then Gx. Or Bb then B natural. Etc. Remember to use the natural sign on the second note if the first note has a flat.

Do you understand why this is called an augmented unison? (I'm not sure if your real question was how to write an augmented unison, or what is an augmented unison.)

Quote:
2. Just to clarify, when the question asks to invert an interval into another clef, do they mean to transpose it inverted into the other clef?

Yes.

Quote:
3. Do we use a double rest in four-two time to mark a complete measure of rest, or do we still use a whole rest?

I believe you use the double rest, but I will try to remember to check this tonight. I used the Rudiments books by Grace Vandendool -- Basic, Intermediate, Advanced -- to study for this exam.

Quote:
4. In simple and compound time, is it possible to join beats 1,2, and 3 into a single rest?

Rats, I'm no longer sure of this! I'll have to check Vandendool. If you're in 3/4 or 9/8 time, I think you write a single whole rest for the whole measure of 3 beats, but I want to double check this.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (08/08/13 10:40 AM)
_________________________
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#2129816 - 08/08/13 10:42 AM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Incidentally, the reason why I used all three Vandendool books, starting with Basic, even though I was taking only the Advanced Rudiments exam, is for the information about rests. The foundations for writing rests are laid in Basic, and then Intermediate and Advanced implicitly refer back to those foundations.
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#2129820 - 08/08/13 10:46 AM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
Musilove Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/05/12
Posts: 16
Thanks. What I meant about the joining beats 1, 2, and 3 is for quadruple time.

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#2129821 - 08/08/13 10:47 AM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
Musilove Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/05/12
Posts: 16
I am currently using sarnecki

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#2129864 - 08/08/13 11:52 AM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
Musilove Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/05/12
Posts: 16
Can someone give me some tips on determining the time signature of an excerpt or fragment? The tips should be "advanced-rudiments-level-of-difficulty-rated". smile

Also another question is how does one tell the difference between four-eight time and two-four time?

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#2129884 - 08/08/13 12:22 PM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Musilove
Thanks. What I meant about the joining beats 1, 2, and 3 is for quadruple time.

Originally Posted By: Musilove
I am currently using sarnecki

Ah. And I don't have Sarnecki. (Debates with self whether it would be useful to get Sarnecki to be able to give tailored answers to those studying with Sarnecki. Decides against, at least for now, at least until the Book Bug strikes again.)

What does Sarnecki say about your rest questions?

I'll still check my Vandendool.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2130069 - 08/08/13 07:14 PM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: PianoStudent88]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I'll have to review my practice tests to see what they show. I don't think they tested modulations explicitly, as in "to what key has this excerpt modulated." But they may include modulations implicitly via accidentals in excerpts.

I'll try to remember to check tonight.

I've checked. None of my practice tests (2009, 2010, 2011) ask to identify a modulation explicitly. One, on a piece in C major, asks you to find a dominant seventh chord in F major, and sure enough there is one chord C7 that includes an accidental Bb.

The analysis pieces often do include accidentals, which occur for all the usual reasons accidentals might occur in pieces: temporary modulation, leading tone in a minor key, create a real sequence, chromatic color, etc.

Basic rudiments includes the ability to identify the key of a passage with a key signature.

Intermediate rudiments includes the ability to identify the key of a passage without a key signature.

Advanced rudiments includes all the requirements of Basic and Intermediate, as well as its own added requirements.
_________________________
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#2130082 - 08/08/13 07:33 PM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Musilove
3. Do we use a double rest in four-two time to mark a complete measure of rest, or do we still use a whole rest?

Double rest. Per Grace Vandendool, Keyboard Theory: Advanced Rudiments, 2nd Edition, p. 113. Sarnecki, if it's complete, should give this information also, even if only briefly in an example.

Quote:
4. In simple and compound time, is it possible to join beats 1,2, and 3 into a single rest?

In quadruple time: No. The reason is that you want to show the subdivision of the bar into two halves. In quadruple time, the beats are strong, weak, medium, weak. Suppose you're in 4/4 time with three beats of rest and a quarter note. You can combine beats 1, 2 (strong weak) into one rest: a half rest. Then you have to start over to show where the medium beat starts: a quarter rest. Then you have the final weak beat: a quarter note.

If the measure were entirely rests, then you don't have to show where the medium beat starts and can just use a whole rest, because the musician doesn't need any help locating interior beats when they can see that they should rest for the entire measure.

As an exercise, if the same sounds as above were written in compound time, say 12/16, with three beats of rest and one beat of playing, what would be the rest and note values?
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#2130100 - 08/08/13 08:32 PM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

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Posts: 11675
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Originally Posted By: Musilove
Thanks. What I meant about the joining beats 1, 2, and 3 is for quadruple time.

I would think no. I prepared for this exam while studying with my violin teacher. We did a practice exam and I started spouting all these memorized rules about rests. He cut me short and tapped or chanted out the rhythm of the musical sample. He told me that written music is meant to have the musician feel and hear the music. When you have meter in 4/4 time you tend to have "STRONG weak Medium weak" as an underlying rhythm to the beat. A joining of 3 beats undermines that rhythm. So I bet that the rule for this is a half rest followed by a quarter rest. It's about the most important thing that I learned - namely to think (hear) musically whenever possible. That often led me back to the rules.

.... As PianoStudent88 said. smile


Edited by keystring (08/08/13 08:34 PM)

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#2130271 - 08/09/13 09:26 AM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: PianoStudent88]
Musilove Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/05/12
Posts: 16
PianoStudent88, would it be one dotted quarter note followed by one dotted eighth note, if it were the same in 12/16 time?

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#2130274 - 08/09/13 09:28 AM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
Musilove Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/05/12
Posts: 16
Thanks for all the input, however, I still have that one question: is there a way to tell the difference between, let's say, 4/8 time and 2/4 time, if all the note values are mostly eighth notes and the occasional quarter note?

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#2130277 - 08/09/13 09:30 AM Re: General Intermediate RCM questions [Re: Musilove]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Musilove
PianoStudent88, would it be one dotted quarter note followed by one dotted eighth note, if it were the same in 12/16 time?

Yes! Gold star for Musilove!
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by landorrano
09/17/14 03:48 PM
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