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Thanks I studied harmony and counterpoint very intensely for years
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Thanks I studied harmony and counterpoint very intensely for years Me too -- but maybe not as many years. Besides that, you're just really good at coming up with relevant factors and ideas on these things.
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The score is sacred!!! There can be no interpreting! You must play the score as the composer intended or face the wrath of Stores (G#d incarnate). Well, you're correct. There is no willy nilly personal choice about hot to play the ornaments in question. The correct way is not difficult and if you do your homework you'll find an inordinate amount of information regarding the execution of ornaments. There is already quite a bit of incorrect information that's been thrown about in this thread and there is one person who has even admitted that for years he's believed the existing ornament was something other than it was. It's highly likely that he heard the ornaments played incorrectly at some point along the way and it's stuck with him, but, and this is where the homework comes in, had he been thoroughly aware of ornaments and their proper execution his ear wouldn't have "tricked" him in the first place. By the way, there is no "3 note version" and where you people come up with this crap is beyond me.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
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....had he been thoroughly aware of ornaments and their proper execution.... He was as fully aware of that concept as you are. Are you capable of replying meaningfully and thoughtfully to points that have been raised on the other side of what you're saying, other than stating rigid dogma and implying that we're ignorant or stupid? You've never shown such an ability for consideration and reflection, but perhaps you've been keeping things in reserve. As I've said before, I'll refrain from highlighting your limitations as long as you remain inoffensive, or at least stay away from who you should stay away from. You've been doing a a pretty good job of that lately, but I guess now and then you can't help yourself. there is no "3 note version" and where you people come up with this crap is beyond me. Wrong again. For example, see the video I posted -- which happens to be by a period-instrument ensemble.
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BTW one of the things I love about discussions like this is how much thought we can put into a note that can often barely be heard.
Mark, same thing with me. Many people will probably think that I complicate so much for one little note that most people don’t even hear. But for me this is interesting…..I am curious how Mozart actually interpreted trills:) why not discuss this.…even if there is no correct answer.
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Also, the harmony is A major and that would be doubling the 3rd/ leading tone. The B is better to start on because it's not in the harmony and acts as an accented passing tone with an upper neighbor(the C#) I don't quite follow this analysis. What is "that" referring to in the first sentence? And if you're in A major, how is "that" doubling the leading tone? Not saying it's wrong; in fact, I think you're onto something useful. I was just looking for some clarification. For the record, I'm not in the camp that believes ALL trills must begin on the upper auxiliary note.
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There are a number of studies about that matter. I think I remember an edition of the Mozart sonatas with a long introduction about the ornaments in Mozart's music. I think the 4 notes approach is the most universally recognized one in Mozart (or 6). In fact, playing 3 notes is technically no longer a trill, but a mordent. However, personnaly, I usually play a mix of styles, 3 notes, 4 notes, even 5 or 6 notes sometimes. I play what I think sounds best, and/or what I can. Indeed, all cases are different. Depending on what the previous note is, e.g., the 3 notes approach might sound better than the 4 notes one. What I consider a good example is the following extract of K310: I really think the 3 notes (or 5) trill sounds much better than the 4 one. So I think we should not be too adamant about how we play them. Isn't sound the most important thing in music ? If it sounds good, it is probably correct to play that way.
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I did little testing on this trills and I discovered (for me) that I can play 3 notes easily, 4 notes cause me a little problem because you really need to play them fast to sound good. My hand can become little tired with 4 notes, especially on the beginning of the second part of EKNM (1.mvt) where you must play those trills nonstop. I will better stick with 3 notes.
On other parts of EKNM I prefer 5 notes. Recording that I listened also indicates that there are 5 notes on other parts (like beginning etc.)
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In fact, playing 3 notes is technically no longer a trill, but a mordent. Very interesting natty. I was always asking myself why we call this thing with 3 notes trill if mordent has exactly the same function. I have the sheet music from Chopin (Nocturne op.9-2) and as you can see in the 14th bar there is mordent on Eb, which means 3 notes (Eb, F, Eb). On the second picture you can find trill in the 22th bar on the same note (Eb) and I believe you must play this note the same way (Eb, F, Eb) like mordent. I believe there is confusion. “Tr†and mordent are sometimes played the same way (3 notes). There should be some sort agreement what separates trill from mordent. Trill should be at least 4 notes, so it can be distinguished from mordent (with only 3).
Last edited by ZBGM0; 07/26/13 11:34 AM.
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Also, the harmony is A major and that would be doubling the 3rd/ leading tone. The B is better to start on because it's not in the harmony and acts as an accented passing tone with an upper neighbor(the C#) I don't quite follow this analysis. What is "that" referring to in the first sentence? And if you're in A major, how is "that" doubling the leading tone?.... Let me take a swing at that. The thing is, the KEY at that point is D major. As he said, the harmony there is A, but the key (in that section) is D. (It would have been clearer if he had said "chord" instead of harmony, or added that it's the dominant.)
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In fact, playing 3 notes is technically no longer a trill, but a mordent. [...] I have the sheet music from Chopin (Nocturne op.9-2) and as you can see in the 14th bar there is mordent on Eb, which means 3 notes (Eb, F, Eb). On the second picture you can find trill in the 22th bar on the same note (Eb) and I believe you must play this note the same way (Eb, F, Eb) like mordent. I believe there is confusion. “Tr†and mordent are sometimes played the same way (3 notes). There should be some sort agreement what separates trill from mordent. Trill should be at least 4 notes, so it can be distinguished from mordent (with only 3). It has been documented that Chopin used the tr (for a short trill) and the mordent sign interchangeably. Therefore, it should not necessarily be construed that, in the example, they are different, although one wonders at a lack of consistency in the detail. Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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Downbeats mean something different than upbeats, particularly when implications of harmony are concerned. Starting the trill on the C# is leaping onto the leading tone which is already being held in the tenor for an entire quarter note. "That" would be doubling the leading tone which is not done. Playing the C# as an "upbeat"(the second of the trill notes) is different than playing the C# as the "downbeat" ( first note of the trill)
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Wrong again. For example, see the video I posted -- which happens to be by a period-instrument ensemble. Great. So, they're playing period instruments. You do realise, of course, that fact doesn't mean that their performance practices are necessarily correct. Ornament notation through the time of Mozart (and actually the standard baroque trill was taught into the 19th century) still realised baroque practices and the "tr" sign does not translate to "mordent". In fact, as written in this case, the appoggiatura, is implied (with, or without the #) and we've a written out termination.
Last edited by stores; 07/27/13 04:54 AM. Reason: thank you, Mark, for pointing out my rather terrible spelling error
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As expected, you didn't give a single word of reply to the points that have been raised. (Not to mention that you're ignoring the simple fact that the 3-note version does exist.) All you show with replies like that is that indeed you just don't have the ability to engage in meaningful discussion about matters like this -- no ability to weigh something that is raised and give a thoughtful answer, no ability to discuss things on the level that so many of our members do. You only have your easy tunnel-visioned rigid views; never mind how limited and false they are. By the way, the word is spelled "their."
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All you show with replies like that is that indeed you just don't have the ability to engage in meaningful discussion about matters like this -- no ability to weigh something that is raised and give a thoughtful answer, no ability to discuss things on the level that so many of our members do. I've come to notice this as well.
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Wrong again. For example, see the video I posted -- which happens to be by a period-instrument ensemble. Great. So, they're playing period instruments. You do realise, of course, that fact doesn't mean that they're performance practices are necessarily correct. Ornament notation through the time of Mozart (and actually the standard baroque trill was taught into the 19th century) still realised baroque practices and the "tr" sign does not translate to "mordent". In fact, as written in this case, the appoggiatura, is implied (with, or without the #) and we've a written out termination. What do you mean "the appoggiatura is implied"
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As expected, you didn't give a single word of reply to the points that have been raised. (Not to mention that you're ignoring the simple fact that the 3-note version does exist.) All you show with replies like that is that indeed you just don't have the ability to engage in meaningful discussion about matters like this -- no ability to weigh something that is raised and give a thoughtful answer, no ability to discuss things on the level that so many of our members do. You only have your easy tunnel-visioned rigid views; never mind how limited and false they are. By the way, the word is spelled "their." Mark, I spend my entire day discussing music and am completely capable of engaging in meaningful discussion. Simply because I choose not to get caught up in one of your blah blah ha ha blah blah ha ha exchanges does not mean I'm incompetent. This case is fairly simple and I stand by my earlier post.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠$
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As I've said before, don't tell us, show us.
From what you've shown on this site, you painfully lack the ability to engage in such interchange. We're not just talking about your replies to my posts; it's everything. I don't doubt that you discuss music plenty in real life. But is seems likely that the nature of it would be basically the same as what we see here, with the same limitations. If you want to say that this isn't so and that you do have the ability that you seem to lack (as more and more people are coming to feel), don't tell us; show us.
And whatever you do, you would do well to cut out the insults to people who simply have different views than you do. If you just did that, we wouldn't have to confront you like this.
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As expected, you didn't give a single word of reply to the points that have been raised. (Not to mention that you're ignoring the simple fact that the 3-note version does exist.) All you show with replies like that is that indeed you just don't have the ability to engage in meaningful discussion about matters like this -- no ability to weigh something that is raised and give a thoughtful answer, no ability to discuss things on the level that so many of our members do. You only have your easy tunnel-visioned rigid views; never mind how limited and false they are. By the way, the word is spelled "their." Mark, I spend my entire day discussing music and am completely capable of engaging in meaningful discussion. Simply because I choose not to get caught up in one of your blah blah ha ha blah blah ha ha exchanges does not mean I'm incompetent. This case is fairly simple and I stand by my earlier post. stores, you've complained mightily about all the misinformation that's been disseminated in this forum over the years. Well, here's your chance to correct the record, to make a contribution. The fact that the OP has opened this thread shows that he really cares about the subject -- and about the score. He's not content to just do whatever "feels good", but genuinely wants to do it the right way. I would think that this attitude would impress you, and make you eager to share your ideas on a topic that's right up your alley. He's mentioned various things he's read, so it appears that he's "done his homework", or is at least trying to research the matter. But he's not coming up with definitive answers that he finds satisfactory. Instead of firing spit balls at other posters (particularly that "certain person"), and calling their ideas "crap", why not share your expertise? In spite of your sour disposition, you've garnered the respect of many PW members over the years, so why not spend a little of that capital? And if you're too tired after "discussing music" the entire day, couldn't you at least provide a reliable source of information to the OP? Maybe recommend some books or articles that discuss how ornamentation evolved throughout the Baroque and Classical periods? I've always thought of you, Mark, and Plover as the Three Musketeers. When any two of you are on the same thread, there's bound to be a duel. And when all three are on, all h*ll breaks loose. And while this back and forth may be wildly entertaining to some of us (one of my guilty pleasures ), in a technical thread like this one, it's not very helpful. The OP sits on the sidelines, waiting for a break in the action, but is no closer to an answer. You're a teacher, stores. Share your knowledge. Teach. You have many receptive students, eager to learn.
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....I've always thought of you, Mark, and Plover as the Three Musketeers. When any two of you are on the same thread, there's bound to be a duel. And when all three are on, all h*ll breaks loose.... Has anyone else noticed -- pianoloverus seems to be on vacation. HEY PLOVER, WE MISS YOU! (Really.) Wherever you are, hope you're doing well -- and hope your absence is only about something good.
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