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#2123291 - 07/26/13 11:52 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: ZBGM0]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17964
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: ZBGM0
Originally Posted By: natty_dread78
In fact, playing 3 notes is technically no longer a trill, but a mordent.


[...]
I have the sheet music from Chopin (Nocturne op.9-2) and as you can see in the 14th bar there is mordent on Eb, which means 3 notes (Eb, F, Eb).

On the second picture you can find trill in the 22th bar on the same note (Eb) and I believe you must play this note the same way (Eb, F, Eb) like mordent. I believe there is confusion. “Tr” and mordent are sometimes played the same way (3 notes). There should be some sort agreement what separates trill from mordent. Trill should be at least 4 notes, so it can be distinguished from mordent (with only 3).


It has been documented that Chopin used the tr (for a short trill) and the mordent sign interchangeably. Therefore, it should not necessarily be construed that, in the example, they are different, although one wonders at a lack of consistency in the detail.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#2123337 - 07/26/13 01:40 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: ZBGM0]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 392
Loc: Portland, OR
Downbeats mean something different than upbeats, particularly when implications of harmony are concerned. Starting the trill on the C# is leaping onto the leading tone which is already being held in the tenor for an entire quarter note. "That" would be doubling the leading tone which is not done. Playing the C# as an "upbeat"(the second of the trill notes) is different than playing the C# as the "downbeat" ( first note of the trill)

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#2123574 - 07/26/13 10:39 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
Happy Birthday stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

Wrong again. grin

For example, see the video I posted -- which happens to be by a period-instrument ensemble.


Great. So, they're playing period instruments. You do realise, of course, that fact doesn't mean that their performance practices are necessarily correct. Ornament notation through the time of Mozart (and actually the standard baroque trill was taught into the 19th century) still realised baroque practices and the "tr" sign does not translate to "mordent". In fact, as written in this case, the appoggiatura, is implied (with, or without the #) and we've a written out termination.


Edited by stores (07/27/13 04:54 AM)
Edit Reason: thank you, Mark, for pointing out my rather terrible spelling error

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#2123580 - 07/26/13 11:01 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: stores]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19742
Loc: New York
As expected, you didn't give a single word of reply to the points that have been raised. (Not to mention that you're ignoring the simple fact that the 3-note version does exist.) All you show with replies like that is that indeed you just don't have the ability to engage in meaningful discussion about matters like this -- no ability to weigh something that is raised and give a thoughtful answer, no ability to discuss things on the level that so many of our members do. You only have your easy tunnel-visioned rigid views; never mind how limited and false they are.

By the way, the word is spelled "their." grin

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#2123586 - 07/26/13 11:21 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
All you show with replies like that is that indeed you just don't have the ability to engage in meaningful discussion about matters like this -- no ability to weigh something that is raised and give a thoughtful answer, no ability to discuss things on the level that so many of our members do.


I've come to notice this as well.

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#2123592 - 07/26/13 11:42 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: stores]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 392
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

Wrong again. grin

For example, see the video I posted -- which happens to be by a period-instrument ensemble.


Great. So, they're playing period instruments. You do realise, of course, that fact doesn't mean that they're performance practices are necessarily correct. Ornament notation through the time of Mozart (and actually the standard baroque trill was taught into the 19th century) still realised baroque practices and the "tr" sign does not translate to "mordent". In fact, as written in this case, the appoggiatura, is implied (with, or without the #) and we've a written out termination.

What do you mean "the appoggiatura is implied"

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#2123666 - 07/27/13 04:53 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
Happy Birthday stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
As expected, you didn't give a single word of reply to the points that have been raised. (Not to mention that you're ignoring the simple fact that the 3-note version does exist.) All you show with replies like that is that indeed you just don't have the ability to engage in meaningful discussion about matters like this -- no ability to weigh something that is raised and give a thoughtful answer, no ability to discuss things on the level that so many of our members do. You only have your easy tunnel-visioned rigid views; never mind how limited and false they are.

By the way, the word is spelled "their." grin


Mark, I spend my entire day discussing music and am completely capable of engaging in meaningful discussion. Simply because I choose not to get caught up in one of your blah blah ha ha blah blah ha ha exchanges does not mean I'm incompetent. This case is fairly simple and I stand by my earlier post.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2123747 - 07/27/13 10:33 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: stores]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19742
Loc: New York
As I've said before, don't tell us, show us.

From what you've shown on this site, you painfully lack the ability to engage in such interchange. We're not just talking about your replies to my posts; it's everything. I don't doubt that you discuss music plenty in real life. But is seems likely that the nature of it would be basically the same as what we see here, with the same limitations. If you want to say that this isn't so and that you do have the ability that you seem to lack (as more and more people are coming to feel), don't tell us; show us.

And whatever you do, you would do well to cut out the insults to people who simply have different views than you do. If you just did that, we wouldn't have to confront you like this.

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#2123761 - 07/27/13 11:02 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: stores]
Old Man Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
As expected, you didn't give a single word of reply to the points that have been raised. (Not to mention that you're ignoring the simple fact that the 3-note version does exist.) All you show with replies like that is that indeed you just don't have the ability to engage in meaningful discussion about matters like this -- no ability to weigh something that is raised and give a thoughtful answer, no ability to discuss things on the level that so many of our members do. You only have your easy tunnel-visioned rigid views; never mind how limited and false they are.

By the way, the word is spelled "their." grin


Mark, I spend my entire day discussing music and am completely capable of engaging in meaningful discussion. Simply because I choose not to get caught up in one of your blah blah ha ha blah blah ha ha exchanges does not mean I'm incompetent. This case is fairly simple and I stand by my earlier post.

stores, you've complained mightily about all the misinformation that's been disseminated in this forum over the years. Well, here's your chance to correct the record, to make a contribution.

The fact that the OP has opened this thread shows that he really cares about the subject -- and about the score. He's not content to just do whatever "feels good", but genuinely wants to do it the right way. I would think that this attitude would impress you, and make you eager to share your ideas on a topic that's right up your alley. He's mentioned various things he's read, so it appears that he's "done his homework", or is at least trying to research the matter. But he's not coming up with definitive answers that he finds satisfactory.

Instead of firing spit balls at other posters (particularly that "certain person"), and calling their ideas "crap", why not share your expertise? In spite of your sour disposition, you've garnered the respect of many PW members over the years, so why not spend a little of that capital? And if you're too tired after "discussing music" the entire day, couldn't you at least provide a reliable source of information to the OP? Maybe recommend some books or articles that discuss how ornamentation evolved throughout the Baroque and Classical periods?

I've always thought of you, Mark, and Plover as the Three Musketeers. When any two of you are on the same thread, there's bound to be a duel. And when all three are on, all h*ll breaks loose. And while this back and forth may be wildly entertaining to some of us (one of my guilty pleasures blush ), in a technical thread like this one, it's not very helpful. The OP sits on the sidelines, waiting for a break in the action, but is no closer to an answer.

You're a teacher, stores. Share your knowledge. Teach. You have many receptive students, eager to learn.

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#2123779 - 07/27/13 11:37 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Old Man]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19742
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Old Man
....I've always thought of you, Mark, and Plover as the Three Musketeers. When any two of you are on the same thread, there's bound to be a duel. And when all three are on, all h*ll breaks loose....

Has anyone else noticed -- pianoloverus seems to be on vacation.

HEY PLOVER, WE MISS YOU!
(Really.) grin

Wherever you are, hope you're doing well -- and hope your absence is only about something good. smile

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#2124101 - 07/28/13 07:06 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
Happy Birthday stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
As I've said before, don't tell us, show us.

From what you've shown on this site, you painfully lack the ability to engage in such interchange. We're not just talking about your replies to my posts; it's everything. I don't doubt that you discuss music plenty in real life. But is seems likely that the nature of it would be basically the same as what we see here, with the same limitations. If you want to say that this isn't so and that you do have the ability that you seem to lack (as more and more people are coming to feel), don't tell us; show us.

And whatever you do, you would do well to cut out the insults to people who simply have different views than you do. If you just did that, we wouldn't have to confront you like this.


Hmmm... I'll just try and steer the conversation elsewhere and aim the focus on the fact that stores is an *********.
I am not here to please your sensibilities and I have no desire to enter into "interchange" with you (as I've stated before). I could be here for days responding to your often inane chitter chatter (that is not meant to be a slight... it's just how most of what I read from you comes across to me).
I've pointed out enough on this subject for those interested to do the homework and learn for themselves. I'm not here to draw things out on the chalkboard. If the answer is a simple one then quite often I'll throw it out there, but, if the answer is one that isn't so evident, then I usually keep things to myself so that those who are not in the know can have the more meaningful experience of their own discovery. I will, however, always attempt to weed out misinformation when I see it (and I hate to say it, but there has always been a great deal of just that coming from Mr. C, who means very well, but often gets carried away when he himself is not always thoroughly grounded and then misleads others who look to him for answers, because anyone who runs their mouth that much MUST know what he's talking about right?)
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2124188 - 07/28/13 11:00 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: stores]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Thus proving Mark's post right. No matter how right you are (or aren't), your lack of communication skills brings so much negative energy to this forum.

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#2124194 - 07/28/13 11:14 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Old Man]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6118
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Old Man

You're a teacher, stores.


He's certainly implied that. I prefer to think of him as his original username.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2124228 - 07/28/13 12:46 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Old Man]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Old Man

You're a teacher, stores.


He's certainly implied that. I prefer to think of him as his original username.


I still don't understand the fuss made about his original username... It's not any offensive word that I have ever heard of, and he's most definitely not from the region where it is supposedly an offensive word, so I don't see the fuss.

Originally Posted By: Old Man

You're a teacher, stores. Share your knowledge. Teach. You have many receptive students, eager to learn.


At the same time, that's what he gets paid to do, so maybe after teaching hours upon hours each day, he may not feel incredibly inclined to keep doing more online, unpaid.

Though that's probably not the point. I think he realizes how so many of the issues cannot be properly solved just by text online, and it's not worth it to him to write a thesis, complete with cited sources and bibliography to properly explain things. And still, especially in regards to piano technique, certain things can only be explained person-to-person, with actual physical interaction.

Of course, that may bring up the question, "well, what's the point of even having the Piano World forum?" There are still countless wonderful subjects to discuss. smile

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#2124244 - 07/28/13 01:23 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: ZBGM0]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
What was stores's original name?

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#2124252 - 07/28/13 01:39 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Orange Soda King]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19742
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
....I think he realizes how so many of the issues cannot be properly solved just by text online, and it's not worth it to him to write a thesis, complete with cited sources and bibliography to properly explain things. And still, especially in regards to piano technique, certain things can only be explained person-to-person, with actual physical interaction.....

Sure -- but:

-- Such a person would rarely handle such things with the insulting provocative hit-and-run that he so often does. There are all kinds of other ways they could do it, if it's just that they don't want to expend the energy and time, like saying their point without the provocation and insult or just staying out of the discussion. And we're not particularly asking him for sources and the like (OldMan did mention that as a possible EASY thing he might do, in case he doesn't want to do anything else, but it's not really what we're talking about), just for meaningful and normal replies to things that are raised in reply to his salvos.

-- The issues on which he says such things -- the things where he pops on with an insult about people's supposed stupidity and ignorance -- often AREN'T that simple, this thread being a perfect example. And the simple things he says are very often simply false.

You're giving him way the benefit of the doubt, and in a way that doesn't work.

To Joel: "Tosser." BTW I didn't find the user name offensive either, just quite odd. grin
I hadn't known of the meaning that some people complained about. And BTW I'm pretty sure nobody ever would have complained except for how harshly he came on as a new member. I shuddered immediately at his first few posts, even though it was subtle at first. Within days, he was getting into mayhem (not with me).

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#2124273 - 07/28/13 02:28 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Orange Soda King]
Old Man Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 777
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King

At the same time, that's what he gets paid to do, so maybe after teaching hours upon hours each day, he may not feel incredibly inclined to keep doing more online, unpaid.

Though that's probably not the point. I think he realizes how so many of the issues cannot be properly solved just by text online, and it's not worth it to him to write a thesis, complete with cited sources and bibliography to properly explain things. And still, especially in regards to piano technique, certain things can only be explained person-to-person, with actual physical interaction.

I understand and agree with everything you're saying. And I thought about the "uncompensated" aspect of helping people online, but didn't want to hand out any easy excuses. grin And no one expects a thesis, or an online tutoring session. Which is why I thought he could've said something like, "It's too exhaustive a subject to discuss online. But to get you started, I highly recommend so-and-so's book on this subject."

Even after a long day at the piano, I don't believe this would have depleted all of stores' stores.

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#2124290 - 07/28/13 03:32 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: ZBGM0]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Maybe he's just a master troll.

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#2124317 - 07/28/13 04:52 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Mark,

"Sure -- but:

-- Such a person would rarely handle such things with the insulting provocative hit-and-run that he so often does. "

I don't know about that. I mean, after all, he doesn't owe you a thing, nor do I or anyone. You're not his student. No student would ever talk to a teacher like that, or criticize them so freely to their faces. Also, students pay their teachers

Since we all, every one of us, engage in the uncivil practice of free and open criticism, doubt, overt cynicism, and general nastiness on this forum from time to time, I think your idea that anyone is committed to 1- answer consistently, or 2- be civil or even generous, is deeply flawed.

This forum has all the dubious claims to collegiality and veracity as a singles hotline:

"OMG! YOU PHOTOSHOPPED THAT
______________________!!!"
(insert body part here)

If you want Stores to teach you, call him up, pay him for a lesson, and then sit down, hold your tongue asnd open your ears until the hour is complete. Otherwise, well, you know very well what I'm going to way...

BTW, get over yourself... I have to from time to time...get over myself that is...


Edited by laguna_greg (07/28/13 05:12 PM)
Edit Reason: clarity and formatting
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2124358 - 07/28/13 05:54 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Orange Soda King]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6118
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Old Man

You're a teacher, stores.


He's certainly implied that. I prefer to think of him as his original username.


I still don't understand the fuss made about his original username...


No fuss, I thought it was very apt. He should have kept it.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2124361 - 07/28/13 06:07 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Damon]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
Ouch!

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#2124430 - 07/28/13 08:23 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: laguna_greg]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19742
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
....he doesn't owe you a thing, nor do I or anyone. You're not his student. No student would ever talk to a teacher like that, or criticize them so freely to their faces....

It's more about what he owes to himself -- to avoid making himself appear how he's made himself appear. Plus, y'know, he really does owe us to not keep on being offensive and insulting. If he just stopped that, we wouldn't call him on the other stuff.

And I think you're wrong about what students would or wouldn't say. If we're talking about students of any high level, absolutely they would say things like this to a teacher who spoke so dogmatically, or insultingly, or without any thoughtful follow-up on their replies to what he had said. And when it's all three, the students would say it back to him very forcefully -- or at least darn better should.

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#2124435 - 07/28/13 08:34 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mwm]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7803
Originally Posted By: Mwm
The score is sacred!!! laugh There can be no interpreting!
You must play the score as the composer intended or face the wrath of Stores (G#d incarnate).


But, this is a transcription, so it is automatically an immoral and unclean abomination in its entirety, because there is no way that it can be seen as the composer's intent. There's no need to even bother with the niceties of the trills. If Mozart had meant it to be a keyboard piece, that's what he would have written.

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#2124448 - 07/28/13 09:07 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: laguna_greg]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 392
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Mark,

"Sure -- but:

-- Such a person would rarely handle such things with the insulting provocative hit-and-run that he so often does. "

I don't know about that. I mean, after all, he doesn't owe you a thing, nor do I or anyone. You're not his student. No student would ever talk to a teacher like that, or criticize them so freely to their faces. Also, students pay their teachers

Since we all, every one of us, engage in the uncivil practice of free and open criticism, doubt, overt cynicism, and general nastiness on this forum from time to time, I think your idea that anyone is committed to 1- answer consistently, or 2- be civil or even generous, is deeply flawed.
http://www.avioseuropack.com/3474/index.html[/i]
This forum has all the dubious claims to collegiality and veracity as a singles hotline:

"OMG! YOU PHOTOSHOPPED THAT
______________________!!!"
(insert body part here)

If you want Stores to teach you, call him up, pay him for a lesson, and then sit down, hold your tongue asnd open your ears until the hour is complete. Otherwise, well, you know very well what I'm going to way...

BTW, get over yourself... I have to from time to time...get over myself that is...

Your analogy is not apt for this scenario. It's entirely contradictory for one to [i]willingly join a public forum and simultaneously act as if it is all beneath them like they're a celebrity being hounded by unscrupulous paparazzi

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#2124466 - 07/28/13 09:59 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: antony]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
"Your analogy is not apt for this scenario."

You are projecting far too many of your own personal values and judgements onto a public forum than can possibly be justified.

It's much closer to strangers passing on a train, exchanging the odd remark, than you suggest.

When you get some objectivity, you write us all back.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2124473 - 07/28/13 10:18 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: laguna_greg]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19742
Loc: New York
Actually I half agree with Greg. I agree that coming onto the site doesn't mean that you owe anything about anything.

But with exceptions -- and one of those is.....let's see how to put this....it's a little hard because what Stores does is so unusual....
I could say just that it's an exception when you do insults and put-downs of other members, and I think that would be valid, but the situation with Stores is even more than that.

If you present yourself as a high-level teacher and performer and do high-sounding posts with insults and put-downs of what others have said, you owe some meaningful follow-up to the replies that you get, because the things that you say carry more weight due to how you're presenting yourself. That's in addition to how the severity of the provocativeness in itself arguably demands responsive follow-up.

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#2124475 - 07/28/13 10:22 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
It's more about what he owes to himself -- to avoid making himself appear how he's made himself appear. Plus, y'know, he really does owe us to not keep on being offensive and insulting. If he just stopped that, we wouldn't call him on the other stuff.


Mark, you are projecting. Among other things, you are projecting a level of intimacy and trust that does not exist on this forum, nor anywhere digitally, nor does it exist among total stranger in real time.

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
And I think you're wrong about what students would or wouldn't say. If we're talking about students of any high level...


Oh Mark...

My first teacher made me go play for Aube Tzerko at UCLA, and then Jeanine Dowis at Aspen and Juilliard, three times. And then there were a number of master classes anywhere she could find them. I can't tell you the number of times I played for Martin Katz, it was the running joke of my department for 12 years. Oh, and I did play for Dalton Baldwin twice as well, and Roger Vignoles, and Graham Johnson many times, and Menachem Pressler, et alia. We won't even talk about Taubman.

If you think they would tolerate anyone for one minute sassing off to them the way we do on this forum, in private or public, I dare you to try it to any of their faces. I can tell you, you wouldn't live to see the door on the way out, which you would find yourself outside of shortly after.

And then there was my teacher in Paris, Noel Lee. How much have you personally paid for lessons with a really famous pianist? Those lessons cost me about 1,800FF per hour, every hour (you do the math). I had to work for weeks to even save up enough money to go play for him. Do you think, at that price, I would contradict him for no good reason? Of course one asks questions, and can. But what you are suggesting vraiment dépasse les bornes.

You REALLY let your own students talk to you like that?

I don't. And that is the level of respect I demand from anyone who works with me, no matter what their level. So apparently does Stores.

And hey, you brought up, what was it, "students of any high level"...

Grâce à Dieu you never studied in France...
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2124480 - 07/28/13 10:29 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: ZBGM0]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7580
Loc: New York City
I, on the other hand, would love for my students to challenge what I say in that way - it shows interest and competence. Provided, of course, that they were actually making a point. If they were just rambling (like some of the nonsense I see from beginners on this forum who are trying to offer advice to other beginners) I would shut them down, of course.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2124481 - 07/28/13 10:29 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
Happy Birthday stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
....he doesn't owe you a thing, nor do I or anyone. You're not his student. No student would ever talk to a teacher like that, or criticize them so freely to their faces....

It's more about what he owes to himself -- to avoid making himself appear how he's made himself appear. Plus, y'know, he really does owe us to not keep on being offensive and insulting. If he just stopped that, we wouldn't call him on the other stuff.

And I think you're wrong about what students would or wouldn't say. If we're talking about students of any high level, absolutely they would say things like this to a teacher who spoke so dogmatically, or insultingly, or without any thoughtful follow-up on their replies to what he had said. And when it's all three, the students would say it back to him very forcefully -- or at least darn better should.


Mark, Greg, is correct. I don't owe you, or anyone else here a thing and I really don't care how I appear here. I tire of hearing you and others ***** about my posts and my attitude, though I rarely post these days unless I see something that really SHOULD be addressed. If you don't like it then don't look. Simple as that. If the thread is full of crap then I'm going to say it's full of crap. If you're wrong about something, then I'm going to say you're wrong. You seem to delight in saying much of what I have to say is false, but you don't say how it's false. I don't deal in falsifications. I simply called out, in this instance, what I saw as erroneous information regarding the aforementioned ornaments. If it offends you to hear that you're wrong, well then, I'm sorry, but you're still wrong. I'm not one to dance around a subject and deal in a bunch of "no, no, you first" blah blah.
By the way, I could probably find an opening for you. Leave your Scriabin at home.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2124487 - 07/28/13 10:33 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: laguna_greg]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19742
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
....My first teacher made me go play for [list of important teachers]....
If you think they would tolerate anyone for one minute sassing off to them the way we do on this forum, in private or public, I dare you to try it to any of their faces. I can tell you, you wouldn't live to see the door on the way out, which you would find yourself outside of shortly after.

Completely irrelevant. You're leaving out the most important part.

How the teachers talk and behave with the students.

I have no hesitation in saying that none of those people would ever be caught dead talking or behaving in the way that we're talking about here.

Quote:
And then there was my teacher in Paris, Noel Lee. How much have you personally paid for lessons with a really famous pianist? Those lessons cost me about 1,800FF per hour, every hour (you do the math)....

Off the subject, but as it happens, I knew people who studied regularly with him and one of them remains a close friend. Lee taught briefly at the college I went to (just before I got there) and I was lucky to hear him when he came back and played a recital. I remember especially the great experience of hearing him play his completion of Schubert's unfinished C major Sonata.

By the way I'm absolutely sure Noel Lee never would have behaved in a way that we're talking about here. ha
You don't get automatic respect and acceptance by virtue of having a certain role or title; you have to earn and deserve that respect. There are certain kinds of behavior that call for questioning and confrontation, and even just walking out the door and not coming back.

Originally Posted By: stores
....You seem to delight in saying much of what I have to say is false, but you don't say how it's false.....

OK, we've learned something more: You don't read too good. grin

Besides that I pointed out how your assertion about the 3-note version was false, I've noted that much of the general content on here shows how false is your basic rigid view on the subject of the thread. Just look through the first page, and see the specific and learned things that various people said regarding how this is a subjective, flexible, gray-area issue.

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