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#2124490 - 07/28/13 10:34 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: laguna_greg]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
It's more about what he owes to himself -- to avoid making himself appear how he's made himself appear. Plus, y'know, he really does owe us to not keep on being offensive and insulting. If he just stopped that, we wouldn't call him on the other stuff.


Mark, you are projecting. Among other things, you are projecting a level of intimacy and trust that does not exist on this forum, nor anywhere digitally, nor does it exist among total stranger in real time.

Originally Posted By: Mark_C
And I think you're wrong about what students would or wouldn't say. If we're talking about students of any high level...


Oh Mark...

My first teacher made me go play for Aube Tzerko at UCLA, and then Jeanine Dowis at Aspen and Juilliard, three times. And then there were a number of master classes anywhere she could find them. I can't tell you the number of times I played for Martin Katz, it was the running joke of my department for 12 years. Oh, and I did play for Dalton Baldwin twice as well, and Roger Vignoles, and Graham Johnson many times, and Menachem Pressler, et alia. We won't even talk about Taubman.

If you think they would tolerate anyone for one minute sassing off to them the way we do on this forum, in private or public, I dare you to try it to any of their faces. I can tell you, you wouldn't live to see the door on the way out, which you would find yourself outside of shortly after.

And then there was my teacher in Paris, Noel Lee. How much have you personally paid for lessons with a really famous pianist? Those lessons cost me about 1,800FF per hour, every hour (you do the math). I had to work for weeks to even save up enough money to go play for him. Do you think, at that price, I would contradict him for no good reason? Of course one asks questions, and can. But what you are suggesting vraiment dépasse les bornes.

You REALLY let your own students talk to you like that?

I don't. And that is the level of respect I demand from anyone who works with me, no matter what their level. So apparently does Stores.

And hey, you brought up, what was it, "students of any high level"...

Grâce à Dieu you never studied in France...


You are quite right, Greg. I've seen plenty of people dismissed by teachers and have done so myself. I keep your money, by the way.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2124493 - 07/28/13 10:38 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: laguna_greg]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 396
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
"Your analogy is not apt for this scenario."

You are projecting far too many of your own personal values and judgements onto a public forum than can possibly be justified.

It's much closer to strangers passing on a train, exchanging the odd remark, than you suggest.

When you get some objectivity, you write us all back.

"strangers on a train..." Are you trying to outdo yourself with poor analogies and bad metaphor?

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#2124494 - 07/28/13 10:41 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: stores]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Well then Stores, we quite agree about a couple of things. And one of them is not putting up with guff from pikers.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2124496 - 07/28/13 10:43 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: antony]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: antony
[/quote]
"strangers on a train..." Are you trying to outdo yourself with poor analogies and bad metaphor?


No foolish boy. I'm trying to get you to see the obvious which, for some unexplainable reason, escapes you rather completely...
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2124505 - 07/28/13 10:57 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Mark,

"Off the subject, but as it happens, I knew people who studied regularly with him and one of them remains a close friend. Lee taught briefly at the college I went to (just before I got there) and I was lucky to hear him when he came back and played a recital. I remember especially the great experience of hearing him play his completion of Schubert's unfinished C major Sonata."

I'm very glad you enjoyed his playing. I did on the few occasions he played in Paris when I was there and it was possible to hear him.

But you are mistaken if you think, for even one second, he would have put up with the BS you people dish out here, yourself included. While he was a gentle soul and American at heart, he was thoroughly French in the way he taught. The fact that you would even say what you did shows that you don't know what this means.

And by the way, his "students" that you knew never contradicted him to his face, or he would have had their guts for garters as he had mine on at least three occasions that I remember, one of them in a public master class on the Schumann lieder.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2124506 - 07/28/13 10:58 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: laguna_greg]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 396
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Originally Posted By: antony

"strangers on a train..." Are you trying to outdo yourself with poor analogies and bad metaphor?


No foolish boy. I'm trying to get you to see the obvious which, for some unexplainable reason, escapes you rather completely... [/quote]
"foolish boy"- Adding ad hominem attacks. Bravo!

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#2124509 - 07/28/13 11:04 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: antony]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Get over yourself. Really.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2124510 - 07/28/13 11:05 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: ZBGM0]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7606
Loc: New York City
Another thread reduced to childish insults back and forth between members, with no meaningful discussion being exchanged. Every time someone does try to contribute actual information, they are instantly drowned out by the flood of arguments that has been plaguing this thread and so many others on this board lately. It looks like the PianoWorld community has once more demonstrated that it is incapable of having an intelligent, organized discussion on even a slightly controversial topic. Congratulations, and I anxiously await the locking of this thread.


Edited by Polyphonist (07/28/13 11:05 PM)
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2124514 - 07/28/13 11:13 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: laguna_greg]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19786
Loc: New York
Greg, you keep ignoring the main thing from what I said about that. If you do that, it's awfully easy to try to trash something.

I tried to help you out in the last reply by highlighting it. In italics even. grin

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#2124520 - 07/28/13 11:29 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Greg, you keep ignoring the main thing from what I said about that. If you do that, it's awfully easy to try to trash something.

I tried to help you out in the last reply by highlighting it. In italics even. grin


Are you listening to anything I've said? I really don't care what you had to say earlier.


Edited by laguna_greg (07/28/13 11:31 PM)
Edit Reason: Better parenting requires more scolding
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2124522 - 07/28/13 11:31 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: ZBGM0]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7606
Loc: New York City
You guys are just talking past each other now. I'm sure you can find something better to do with your time than have an argument with some random person you don't know on the Internet in which neither of you really wants to listen to what the other is saying.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2124523 - 07/28/13 11:32 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Polyphonist]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
You guys are just talking past each other now. I'm sure you can find something better to do with your time than have an argument with some random person you don't know on the Internet in which neither of you really wants to listen to what the other is saying.


Oh I don't know Poly. It's Sunday night, there's nothing on the tele, and dinner's not quite ready yet...
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2124524 - 07/28/13 11:34 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: laguna_greg]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7606
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
You guys are just talking past each other now. I'm sure you can find something better to do with your time than have an argument with some random person you don't know on the Internet in which neither of you really wants to listen to what the other is saying.


Oh I don't know Poly. It's Sunday night, there's nothing on the tele, and dinner's not quite ready yet...

How about you go and play some Mozart? laugh
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2124525 - 07/28/13 11:36 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Polyphonist]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
I'm doing that already, in between typing...
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2124526 - 07/28/13 11:37 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: laguna_greg]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7606
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
I'm doing that already, in between typing...

Well, don't let Mark's feeble arguments distract you. And come to that, don't let your own feeble arguments distract yourself. ha
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2124535 - 07/29/13 12:17 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: ZBGM0]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
This thread is teaching me so much about Mozart's trills.

whistle

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#2124539 - 07/29/13 12:29 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: stores]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: stores


Mark, Greg, is correct. I don't owe you, or anyone else here a thing and I really don't care how I appear here. I tire of hearing you and others ***** about my posts and my attitude, though I rarely post these days unless I see something that really SHOULD be addressed. If you don't like it then don't look. Simple as that. If the thread is full of crap then I'm going to say it's full of crap. If you're wrong about something, then I'm going to say you're wrong. You seem to delight in saying much of what I have to say is false, but you don't say how it's false. I don't deal in falsifications. I simply called out, in this instance, what I saw as erroneous information regarding the aforementioned ornaments. If it offends you to hear that you're wrong, well then, I'm sorry, but you're still wrong. I'm not one to dance around a subject and deal in a bunch of "no, no, you first" blah blah.


This is all good, except you aren't always right. Sometimes you say things that are outright false. Other times you confuse your own ideals with moral obligation. "You MUST do this, you MUST do that". To use a recent thread topic as an example, you say, with conviction, that we do not have the right to alter anything in the score. Guess what, it's art. There are no rules like that. If I want to change a note for my own artistic liking, I'm going to do it. PERIOD. Who cares if YOU don't think it sounds good? To use one of your own [quite good] philosophies, if you don't like it, don't bother. That means don't spend time preaching on threads about what people should do with their artistic choices.

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#2124619 - 07/29/13 04:19 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mark_C


Besides that I pointed out how your assertion about the 3-note version was false, I've noted that much of the general content on here shows how false is your basic rigid view on the subject of the thread. Just look through the first page, and see the specific and learned things that various people said regarding how this is a subjective, flexible, gray-area issue.


You pointed something out. Okay. But you didn't give me anything that says, "stores, what you're saying is incorrect." I read the entire thread and there isn't anything that says it is a "subjective, flexible, gray area issue", because it is not. How can I say that? Because I know what I'm talking about regarding ornamentation, period practices, etc., etc. The baroque and classical are my specialty and I've spent the greater part of the last 30 years or so studying (and teaching) this music in great detail. The problem is that there are too many "subjective, flexible, gray area issue(s)" with you. You seem to love these sorts of things, in fact. Show me something definitive that says your "three note version" is an acceptable variation and I'll listen, because you pointing something out that you feel to be the case simply doesn't mean that it is so.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2124622 - 07/29/13 04:34 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: JoelW]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: stores


Mark, Greg, is correct. I don't owe you, or anyone else here a thing and I really don't care how I appear here. I tire of hearing you and others ***** about my posts and my attitude, though I rarely post these days unless I see something that really SHOULD be addressed. If you don't like it then don't look. Simple as that. If the thread is full of crap then I'm going to say it's full of crap. If you're wrong about something, then I'm going to say you're wrong. You seem to delight in saying much of what I have to say is false, but you don't say how it's false. I don't deal in falsifications. I simply called out, in this instance, what I saw as erroneous information regarding the aforementioned ornaments. If it offends you to hear that you're wrong, well then, I'm sorry, but you're still wrong. I'm not one to dance around a subject and deal in a bunch of "no, no, you first" blah blah.


This is all good, except you aren't always right. Sometimes you say things that are outright false. Other times you confuse your own ideals with moral obligation. "You MUST do this, you MUST do that". To use a recent thread topic as an example, you say, with conviction, that we do not have the right to alter anything in the score. Guess what, it's art. There are no rules like that. If I want to change a note for my own artistic liking, I'm going to do it. PERIOD. Who cares if YOU don't think it sounds good? To use one of your own [quite good] philosophies, if you don't like it, don't bother. That means don't spend time preaching on threads about what people should do with their artistic choices.


Because you like it doesn't mean it is correct, nor does it mean that my counter argument is false (it isn't a falsity to state that one should not alter the score). You basically make my point for me. Do what you like... it makes no difference to me, but keep in mind that you'll never be taken seriously, if you spend your time changing notes here and there, because you like things better that way. The "artistic choice" argument, which I've heard countless times, is an amateur one and I guarantee you it will be highlighted should you decide to insert your own alterations into the score while playing in a masterclass, or for any notable, knowledgeable teacher. To do such a thing means you must have better than good reason and be able to provide solid backup for your reason. It isn't about whether I think it sounds good and saying so simply means you don't understand the point.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#2124736 - 07/29/13 11:02 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: ZBGM0]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 770
Loc: Dorset, UK
stores: a genuine question and re Mozart and the score. K311, 1st movt, bar 51. My Henle Urtext edition gives a naturalised C in the 2nd half of the bar (RH). It has always sounded wrong to me - I play the C# as in the 1st half of the bar. Apart from bar 41 it's the first appearance of a C natural, although there are quite a few further on. No comments in the notes to the edition.

Is there a good harmonic reason for the C natural? Should I just get used to the shock (to me) of the C natural in that bar? It has puzzled me for some time as I much prefer to play the notes as written and learn the reasons for what appears to be a "wrong" note.

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#2124753 - 07/29/13 11:32 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: sandalholme]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3588
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: sandalholme
stores: a genuine question and re Mozart and the score. K311, 1st movt, bar 51. My Henle Urtext edition gives a naturalised C in the 2nd half of the bar (RH). It has always sounded wrong to me - I play the C# as in the 1st half of the bar. Apart from bar 41 it's the first appearance of a C natural, although there are quite a few further on. No comments in the notes to the edition.

Is there a good harmonic reason for the C natural? Should I just get used to the shock (to me) of the C natural in that bar? It has puzzled me for some time as I much prefer to play the notes as written and learn the reasons for what appears to be a "wrong" note.


C natural is correct. The harmonic reason is that the chord with the c-natural in it is a diminished vii triad (vii of IV) applied to the following G-chord. Mozart would not typically use a C-sharp there because a F# minor chord to G major chord is not a stylistically classical resolution. The diminished is more appropriate to the period because there are dual semi-tone resolutions: the F#-G in the bass and C-B in the middle voice. I think you should try to get used to it. Remember that it is there to give a strong resolution to the G chord, it's not supposed to sound like a sweet movement from the chord before. It's intentionally deceptive, trying to surprise you. Try to listen for the descending chromatic line in the middle, C#-C-B to help your ear accept it.

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#2124758 - 07/29/13 11:37 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: ZBGM0]
Peter K. Mose Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/06/12
Posts: 1358
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
I posted something earlier on in this thread that in a more pussyfooting way tried to say what stores said more clearly and emphatically. I, too, know a fair bit about 18th C ornamentation, and everything I know points to this Mozart example as not gray at all. Stores *is* the voice to be heeded: this is a simple trill commencing on the note above.

If you want to play this ornament with 3 notes, starting on the principal note, going up, then back, you are playing a pretend ornament that did not exist in Mozart`s day. Or in Bach`s day. It`s historically wrong.

You can play it that wrong way, of course, and perhaps few listeners can hear the difference, and it might feel more pianistic under your fingers to play a trill upside down and inaccurately. In the grand scheme of life this debate may seem trivial. And obviously there are rivalries on this board I don`t know about. But stores has given the OP a good answer to his query.



Edited by Peter K. Mose (07/29/13 05:03 PM)

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#2124772 - 07/29/13 11:50 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: ando]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 770
Loc: Dorset, UK
Many thanks ando. I will go and educate my ears!

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#2124777 - 07/29/13 11:54 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Peter K. Mose]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19786
Loc: New York
.....and to Peter's post:

When some knowledgeable people say that something can only be one way, and other equally knowledgeable people say it's more complicated and that it's flexible and arguable, which side would usually tend to be right?

I'd also love to see anyone on your side reply to Antony's point about doubling the leading tone. I don't mean that this says you have to do the 3-note version, just that it's a point in favor of it -- and if you want to try to be academic and doctrinaire about it, you need to deal with points like that.

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#2124793 - 07/29/13 12:25 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: stores]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Quote:
Because you like it doesn't mean it is correct


That's what you're not getting. There is no 'correct' in art.

Quote:
Do what you like... it makes no difference to me


Your activity on a recent thread proves otherwise.

Quote:
but keep in mind that you'll never be taken seriously


Plain false. Countless famous professionals have been known to change notes. Some less obvious, some glaringly obvious. Do you really think they aren't being taken seriously? Hah. I once went to a concert where a famous violinist was making little improvs during the Sibelius concerto throughout the whole show.

Quote:

I guarantee you it will be highlighted should you decide to insert your own alterations into the score while playing in a masterclass, or for any notable, knowledgeable teacher.


This assumes that you already know every teacher in the world is a purist. This would seem to contradict the famous pianists who do make changes to the score and also give masterclasses. Also, if a student is smart and knows his environment, he/she isn't going to play any alterations for a purist teacher. You wait until you're on the stage before an audience. An audience you know isn't full of purists who can ruin your career. Or if you're confident in your alteration and a real artist, nothing will stop you ever. I highly respect that.

Quote:
It isn't about whether I think it sounds good and saying so simply means you don't understand the point.


No, you don't understand the point. The point is that art isn't bound up in any of your idealistic chains.

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#2124795 - 07/29/13 12:29 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19786
Loc: New York
....and in the case of this thread, it isn't even about deviating from the score, just how to interpret it.

There is such a very wide range of opinion on all such aspects, including that many people who are extreme sticklers for sticking to scores, like Stores and (I guess) Peter, still have flexible views about how to interpret them. Being strict about scores doesn't at all necessarily mean being rigid on exactly how to play an ornament.

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#2124802 - 07/29/13 12:46 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4787
Loc: USA
Perhaps I got a little off topic? grin

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#2124811 - 07/29/13 01:01 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19786
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Perhaps I got a little off topic? grin

Just a little. smile
(sort of a merging of topics from 2 related threads)

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#2124820 - 07/29/13 01:16 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
.....and to Peter's post:

When some knowledgeable people say that something can only be one way, and other equally knowledgeable people say it's more complicated and that it's flexible and arguable, which side would usually tend to be right?

I'd also love to see anyone on your side reply to Antony's point about doubling the leading tone. I don't mean that this says you have to do the 3-note version, just that it's a point in favor of it -- and if you want to try to be academic and doctrinaire about it, you need to deal with points like that.


I'm not trying to offend, but in this case the "other equally knowledgeable people" are not. Mark, it really is quite simple... there is no three note version. Play it that way, if you must, but that isn't what Mozart has written. It simply doesn't exist.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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#2124828 - 07/29/13 01:21 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: stores]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19786
Loc: New York
What can you say about leaping up to the doubled leading tone?

None of you are touching that. (Maybe because it would require realizing that the subject isn't so simple?) Plus, what Jeffrey and Jason (Beet31425) said about when the figure is approached from below.

There are rules, and there are exceptions to rules. I agree that what you're saying is a "rule," although with quotes around it. We mainly just disagree on exceptions -- and using judgment.

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