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#2124938 - 07/29/13 05:50 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
Luthrin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/08
Posts: 54
Loc: UK
From "Perspectives on Mozart Performance" (R. Larry Todd and Peter Williams, editors):



Badura-Skoda goes on to say:

"Not only in piano music, but in orchestral works, there
are many instances where a main-note start of a trill is
desirable for harmonic and melodic reasons."


He then gives two examples and says:

"Alas, nowadays nearly all orchestral players start these
trills with the upper note, evidently because they are 'well
instructed' that a Mozart trill must start from above."

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#2124996 - 07/29/13 08:16 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Luthrin]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Luthrin: Thanks for posting this!

Originally Posted By: Luthrin
From "Perspectives on Mozart Performance" (R. Larry Todd and Peter Williams, editors):



Badura-Skoda goes on to say:

"Not only in piano music, but in orchestral works, there
are many instances where a main-note start of a trill is
desirable for harmonic and melodic reasons."


He then gives two examples and says:

"Alas, nowadays nearly all orchestral players start these
trills with the upper note, evidently because they are 'well
instructed' that a Mozart trill must start from above."


Calling Stores, Peter, Greg, and anyone who might still want to insist that the rigid "start-on-the-upper-note" view is the only 'correct' one and that the rest of us are dolts. grin

To be clear: I'm not saying at all that starting on the principal note is how you have to do it in the current example; I'm not even sure I'd do it that way, although I'm pretty sure I would, with the "leaping-to-the-leading-tone" factor mentioned by Antony being the probable clincher (and not because of pure music theory but because I regard this as a probable underlying explanation for why my ear seems to dislike and reject that version). But all I'm really saying is that the subject is open for reasonable debate and subjectivity, and that it's simply WRONG to say that your way is the only correct way. If you insist otherwise, you're up against Badura-Skoda (as well as many others).

But don't worry -- you've got company: ME. ha
Because if he meant to imply that the short upper-note trill (like the 4-note version in the current example) 'doesn't exist' -- and he seems to come close to that, doesn't he -- I would disagree with him too, just as I'd disagree with your saying that the 3-note version "doesn't exist." I don't think we can say that either way is simply wrong, and to that extent, I'm supporting you, against Badura-Skoda -- supporting the reasonableness of your preference, although not your insistence on it, and I think you'd be on firmer ground if you cited reasons besides just a supposed rule.


By the way: The others that you're up against would seem to include even C.P.E. Bach, because of how he allowed for exceptions.


Edited by Mark_C (07/29/13 10:17 PM)

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#2125028 - 07/29/13 10:09 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

Calling Stores, Peter, Polyph, Greg, and anyone who might still want to insist that the rigid "start-on-the-upper-note" view is the only 'correct' one and that the rest of us are dolts. grin

Hey, wait a minute - when did I ever say that? I actually never gave my opinion on the matter, and I think I'll continue to refrain from doing so. wink
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2125029 - 07/29/13 10:13 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Polyphonist]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Hey, wait a minute....

Well, I was going on that post of yours about "feeble arguments." The fact that you said someone else's arguments were also feeble didn't seem to outweigh what you led off with. grin

But you're right. I should edit the above post, and I will.

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#2125037 - 07/29/13 10:39 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Luthrin: Thanks for posting this!

Originally Posted By: Luthrin
From "Perspectives on Mozart Performance" (R. Larry Todd and Peter Williams, editors):



Badura-Skoda goes on to say:

"Not only in piano music, but in orchestral works, there
are many instances where a main-note start of a trill is
desirable for harmonic and melodic reasons."


He then gives two examples and says:

"Alas, nowadays nearly all orchestral players start these
trills with the upper note, evidently because they are 'well
instructed' that a Mozart trill must start from above."


Calling Stores, Peter, Greg, and anyone who might still want to insist that the rigid "start-on-the-upper-note" view is the only 'correct' one and that the rest of us are dolts. grin

To be clear: I'm not saying at all that starting on the principal note is how you have to do it in the current example; I'm not even sure I'd do it that way, although I'm pretty sure I would, with the "leaping-to-the-leading-tone" factor mentioned by Antony being the probable clincher (and not because of pure music theory but because I regard this as a probable underlying explanation for why my ear seems to dislike and reject that version). But all I'm really saying is that the subject is open for reasonable debate and subjectivity, and that it's simply WRONG to say that your way is the only correct way. If you insist otherwise, you're up against Badura-Skoda (as well as many others).

But don't worry -- you've got company: ME. ha
Because if he meant to imply that the short upper-note trill (like the 4-note version in the current example) 'doesn't exist' -- and he seems to come close to that, doesn't he -- I would disagree with him too, just as I'd disagree with your saying that the 3-note version "doesn't exist." I don't think we can say that either way is simply wrong, and to that extent, I'm supporting you, against Badura-Skoda -- supporting the reasonableness of your preference, although not your insistence on it, and I think you'd be on firmer ground if you cited reasons besides just a supposed rule.


By the way: The others that you're up against would seem to include even C.P.E. Bach, because of how he allowed for exceptions.


Now we're talking, because I've actually studied with Badura-Skoda. Would I disagree with him on this subject? No, because he's correct. He would be the first, however, to tell you that your "three note version" (which isn't a trill at all is it?) doesn't exist, Mark. I've not stated anywhere that I'm insistent on trills beginning on the upper note, but as a rule they almost always do throughout the classical era (which I believe I've already stated elsewhere). What I HAVE stated is that the "tr" sign does NOT translate to "mordent", which you're insistent on seeing here. With this work, however, yes, I WOULD insist on the trill beginning on the upper note.

Of course, you would disagree with a scholar like Badura-Skoda, wouldn't you? That surprises me not. But what have you to base your disagreement on? Other than the hope that someone will produce some information backing up your belief, nothing.
Let it go.
Just so you know, I think no less of you for your stance on the issue. It is one I've heard numerous times from students who have only begun to do their homework. It is a common thing.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2125045 - 07/29/13 11:06 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Hey, wait a minute....

Well, I was going on that post of yours about "feeble arguments." The fact that you said someone else's arguments were also feeble didn't seem to outweigh what you led off with. grin

I wasn't actually debating the quality of your argument, I was merely making the point that the discussion wasn't going anywhere. Sorry if you were offended. grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2125053 - 07/29/13 11:15 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: stores]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Relatively nice post, Stores -- mere condescension rather than insults. ha

Still no comment on the relevant questions, but I guess that is indeed too much to expect. smile

Regarding the basis for my possible disagreement with Badura-Skoda, which you lambasted: There are any number of bases. The easiest is simply that in the current example, most high-level performances seem to do a version of the trill (i.e. the "4-note version") that he comes close to implying doesn't exist. In fact, it's the version that you yourself have endorsed. This is very odd: you criticized (actually mocked) grin my possible disagreement with Badura-Skoda even though you share it. Somehow you must not have realized that you do, although that's hard to understand.

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#2125128 - 07/30/13 04:01 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Relatively nice post, Stores -- mere condescension rather than insults. ha

Still no comment on the relevant questions, but I guess that is indeed too much to expect. smile

Regarding the basis for my possible disagreement with Badura-Skoda, which you lambasted: There are any number of bases. The easiest is simply that in the current example, most high-level performances seem to do a version of the trill (i.e. the "4-note version") that he comes close to implying doesn't exist. In fact, it's the version that you yourself have endorsed. This is very odd: you criticized (actually mocked) grin my possible disagreement with Badura-Skoda even though you share it. Somehow you must not have realized that you do, although that's hard to understand.


No comment on the relevant questions? The thread, let me refresh your memory, is about a trill found in Eine Kleine Nachtmusik and that is what I've been addressing. It would seem to be THE relevant question.

What some do on recordings is only where we begin with an investigation. And yes, the 4 note ornament does exist as I've heard it many times. B-S (as we loved calling him, though not to his face ha!) does more than imply a 4 note trill, Mark. Every ornament on his list makes use of 4 notes. I agree with him completely on this issue, if I didn't make that clear enough earlier. This doesn't mean that I haven't disagreed with him on plenty of other things, but we think alike here. Just stop reading so much into things. You seem to really enjoy doing that even though there isn't anything there and there isn't in this case.
Again, let it go.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2125151 - 07/30/13 06:30 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: stores]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8027
Originally Posted By: stores
B-S (as we loved calling him, though not to his face ha!) does more than imply a 4 note trill, Mark. Every ornament on his list makes use of 4 notes.


You are wrong. The third item on his list, the "short trill" is a three-note trill. The two terms in parenthesis for that item, Pralltriller and Schneller, are both defined as an inverted mordent in Grove. And the inverted mordent is just three notes.

It is true that at one time, the term Pralltriller was a four note trill starting on the upper auxiliary, but that is not how he used it in the list, since he gives it as a synonym for Scheller, which never was a four-note trill.

Of course, you may want to argue that Grove is wrong, too, but some cites at least as solid as Grove would be in order if you do.

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#2125226 - 07/30/13 10:22 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: wr]
Luthrin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/08
Posts: 54
Loc: UK
Badura-Skoda's article on Mozart's trills from "Perspectives on Mozart Performance" was first published in 1991. Here's the beginning of the five-page section discussing case (3) on the list of 'tr' meanings:





The following is from the ornamentation chapter of his 1961 book "Interpreting Mozart on the Keyboard" (co-authored with his wife Eva). The authors earlier define a 'prepared' trill as always starting on the upper auxiliary and an 'unprepared' one starting on the main note.

[This book is freely available at openlibrary.org]




At the end of the chapter the authors say:

"We believe that in Mozart half-shakes usually begin on the main note."

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#2125265 - 07/30/13 11:30 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: stores]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Stores, you're just showing more and more what you can't do.

Originally Posted By: stores
B-S (as we loved calling him, though not to his face ha!) does more than imply a 4 note trill, Mark. Every ornament on his list makes use of 4 notes. I agree with him completely on this issue, if I didn't make that clear enough earlier.

You couldn't even read what Badura-Skoda said and relate it to what we've been talking about. You flat-out didn't get it. You have trouble understanding things of even the slightest complexity even when we spoon-feed them to you.

What we've been discussing as the "4-note trill" in the current piece is the thing that Badura-Skoda referred to as "the short trill beginning on the upper auxiliary." And here's what he said about it, and what I've been meaning when I said he comes close to saying it doesn't exist in Mozart (copied from Luthrin's post):

Some readers might wonder why I forgot to mention the short trill (Pralltriller) beginning on the upper auxiliary. To my regret, however, I could find no evidence for it (see below) which might in any way apply to Mozart.

What I said I would disagree with is the seeming implication that this kind of short trill doesn't exist. You blasted that disagreement -- even though you would share it.

We can see more and more why you rely so heavily on rigid principles and insults: they're easy. Thoughtful consideration and discussion are harder.

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#2125289 - 07/30/13 12:29 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
ZBGM0 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 100
Vauu…I read all posts.

I would never think that my question would cause such a long debate. One think is for sure: no matter which way is correct way, there IS confusion with execution Mozart’s trills in EKNM. No doubt about that. One of the smallest and one of the most “obvious” thing becomes suddenly indistinct.

It is safe to say that you can play any of the two versions. I don’t even think that it is even possible to confirm for 100% which is correct. Mozart is dead, the piece was never performed when he was alive, both versions of trills were apparently in use at that time and Mozart could easily even wrote mordent, that is now printed as a trill or people thought he wrote trill.

Where can I see original score (handwriting) form Mozart? In which museum? I would like to see how he wrote this trill… It might help..:)

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#2125317 - 07/30/13 01:18 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: ZBGM0]
jdw Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 1038
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
I almost gave up lurking in this thread a while back, but I'm glad I kept on hoping to learn something. Thanks for the interesting article excerpts, Luthrin!
_________________________
1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Grieg, Papillon
Mozart, K 330
Brahms, Op. 118 no. 2

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#2125589 - 07/30/13 10:38 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: wr]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: stores
B-S (as we loved calling him, though not to his face ha!) does more than imply a 4 note trill, Mark. Every ornament on his list makes use of 4 notes.


You are wrong. The third item on his list, the "short trill" is a three-note trill. The two terms in parenthesis for that item, Pralltriller and Schneller, are both defined as an inverted mordent in Grove. And the inverted mordent is just three notes.

It is true that at one time, the term Pralltriller was a four note trill starting on the upper auxiliary, but that is not how he used it in the list, since he gives it as a synonym for Scheller, which never was a four-note trill.

Of course, you may want to argue that Grove is wrong, too, but some cites at least as solid as Grove would be in order if you do.











Actually, no, I'm not wrong, but I do see now that BS believes the ornament in question could be a pralltriller or schneller. I disagree and here is why. Baroque ornamentation lived into the 19th century. In music written before the nineteenth century, the mordent (written as a shake sign crossed by a vertical line) is a sequence of three notes. It is known as the "lower mordent" distinguishing it from the nineteenth century ornament know as the schneller or upper/inverted mordent.
The pralltriller (half or short trill) is a series of four notes, the first of which is tied to the preceding note, and may occur only after a descending second. The note that is ornamented with the trill must be preceded by the note one diatonic step higher.
Clearly, the ornament in question can be neither.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2125594 - 07/30/13 10:44 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Stores, you're just showing more and more what you can't do.

Originally Posted By: stores
B-S (as we loved calling him, though not to his face ha!) does more than imply a 4 note trill, Mark. Every ornament on his list makes use of 4 notes. I agree with him completely on this issue, if I didn't make that clear enough earlier.

You couldn't even read what Badura-Skoda said and relate it to what we've been talking about. You flat-out didn't get it. You have trouble understanding things of even the slightest complexity even when we spoon-feed them to you.

What we've been discussing as the "4-note trill" in the current piece is the thing that Badura-Skoda referred to as "the short trill beginning on the upper auxiliary." And here's what he said about it, and what I've been meaning when I said he comes close to saying it doesn't exist in Mozart (copied from Luthrin's post):

Some readers might wonder why I forgot to mention the short trill (Pralltriller) beginning on the upper auxiliary. To my regret, however, I could find no evidence for it (see below) which might in any way apply to Mozart.

What I said I would disagree with is the seeming implication that this kind of short trill doesn't exist. You blasted that disagreement -- even though you would share it.

We can see more and more why you rely so heavily on rigid principles and insults: they're easy. Thoughtful consideration and discussion are harder.


You know, Mark, who cares. Really. I have SO had it with your "possibly, could be, may be, seeming so, etc., etc." You are easily one of THE wishy-washiest people I've ever encountered and aside from the gross misinformation you toss about, it is why I rarely comment on things you say these days. I suppose, the trick is to just put you back on ignore and let you say what you will. Hopefully, people will do their own homework and not rely on someone who they think must be in the know, since his post total is 10k+.
At any rate, I'm out... way past my bedtime.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2125652 - 07/31/13 12:39 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: stores]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: stores
....the trick is to just put you back on ignore....

As I've said many times before: PLEASE. ha
You've said it before, and never stuck to it. Please do.

You and I are two people who would never talk to each other in real life for more than two seconds. It's best for us to observe that here too.

A couple of other things: Stop insulting other people too, and realize that having a different view than yours doesn't mean someone is ignorant. Better yet, be more open to these different ideas. You might learn a thing or two. smile

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#2125680 - 07/31/13 02:19 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5976
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: stores
....the trick is to just put you back on ignore....
As I've said many times before: PLEASE. ha
You've said it before, and never stuck to it. Please do.
Why don't you just put him on ignore? Then you won't see anything he writes, so it won't bother you.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#2125689 - 07/31/13 03:18 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: currawong]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
I'm going to PM you about it.......

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#2125696 - 07/31/13 03:59 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: ZBGM0]
FSO Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 854
Loc: UK, Brighton
Wow. Personally, I reckon that Stores is plenty nice enough in person and, though s/he clearly takes his/er music seriously, would love having a discussion and engaging on a personal level; that it's the abstraction from humanity inherent in the internet that breeds the hasty tongue...but, um, that's just what I reckon and I'm not going to make a fuss if someone contradicts me. Likewise here; no matter the source, unless it's Mozart himself, there's always a degree of "I reckon", no matter how esteemed your intellect or deep your research...otherwise, surely, the answer would have been reached by now. I mean, um, it's a little silly, if perhaps inevitable, to get heated over sides of a debate in any instance, let alone one where you can't prove anything...at the end of the day, it's still whoever reckons loudest, with the best credentials, who'll win out, if anyone does at all...even Newton was wrong; it's okay to just be wrong or to have others think you wrong and, with that in mind, can't we just play nicely? Of course, um, I don't mean to chastise or patronise anyone but...why can't we just be nice? And I swear to Bach, if someone says "but he started it" I will...I don't know...track you down and give you a hug. And that will be weird and so much effort, so please? laugh
Xxx
_________________________
Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3

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#2125700 - 07/31/13 04:08 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Luthrin]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Portland, OR
Mr. Stores, PB-S does say that trill signs take on different meanings "according to context" and that the same symbol can have different meanings as " an undeniable historical fact of 18th C music". So would you mind saying why in this context the four note trill is the correct one?

The upper note beginning is not an appoggiatura; appoggiaturas are leaping from a consonance onto a dissonance and resolving down a step to a consonance and strictly speaking are not involved with trills. The turn seems to be the most "defined " ornament as far as consensus as being four note starting on the upper and passing the principle note to the one below and returning up to the principle

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#2125708 - 07/31/13 05:49 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: stores]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8027
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: stores
B-S (as we loved calling him, though not to his face ha!) does more than imply a 4 note trill, Mark. Every ornament on his list makes use of 4 notes.


You are wrong. The third item on his list, the "short trill" is a three-note trill. The two terms in parenthesis for that item, Pralltriller and Schneller, are both defined as an inverted mordent in Grove. And the inverted mordent is just three notes.

It is true that at one time, the term Pralltriller was a four note trill starting on the upper auxiliary, but that is not how he used it in the list, since he gives it as a synonym for Scheller, which never was a four-note trill.

Of course, you may want to argue that Grove is wrong, too, but some cites at least as solid as Grove would be in order if you do.



Actually, no, I'm not wrong, but I do see now that BS believes the ornament in question could be a pralltriller or schneller. I disagree and here is why. Baroque ornamentation lived into the 19th century. In music written before the nineteenth century, the mordent (written as a shake sign crossed by a vertical line) is a sequence of three notes. It is known as the "lower mordent" distinguishing it from the nineteenth century ornament know as the schneller or upper/inverted mordent.
The pralltriller (half or short trill) is a series of four notes, the first of which is tied to the preceding note, and may occur only after a descending second. The note that is ornamented with the trill must be preceded by the note one diatonic step higher.
Clearly, the ornament in question can be neither.


If the first note is tied to a previous one, it isn't sounded again, and as Grove says, it may be omitted entirely. And if it is omitted, that would appear to leave the ornament as having three notes.



Edited by wr (07/31/13 12:39 PM)

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#2125759 - 07/31/13 09:33 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: stores
....the trick is to just put you back on ignore....

As I've said many times before: PLEASE. ha
You've said it before, and never stuck to it. Please do.

You and I are two people who would never talk to each other in real life for more than two seconds. It's best for us to observe that here too.

A couple of other things: Stop insulting other people too, and realize that having a different view than yours doesn't mean someone is ignorant. Better yet, be more open to these different ideas. You might learn a thing or two. smile


Mark, why not just stop responding to tosser's bad posts? It takes two to tango. grin

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#2125815 - 07/31/13 11:33 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Why not keep upping the peer pressure on him, as has in fact been happening?

You've been chiming in, as have a few others. And it works. (I don't mean completely shutting down the behavior, which shouldn't be expected.)

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#2125827 - 07/31/13 11:54 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
You're right; his posts have since become more engaging. Why are you on tosser's bad side suddenly? (ignoring, etc.)

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#2125829 - 07/31/13 11:56 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: ZBGM0]
Peter K. Mose Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/06/12
Posts: 1382
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Start the trill from above. Yes, you can find exceptions, and partisans of alternate views. Even scholars get ugly over this. But generally an 18th C trill commenced from above, as a dissonance.

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#2126006 - 07/31/13 05:16 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: Mark_C]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Why not keep upping the peer pressure on him, as has in fact been happening?

You've been chiming in, as have a few others. And it works. (I don't mean completely shutting down the behavior, which shouldn't be expected.)
I'm glad you added the parenthetical, because I don't think it's anyone's job to "pressure" someone to change. I'd much rather have people be themselves, and let the rest of us deal with them accordingly -- or not.

I did encourage stores to address the OP's question because it seemed like a perfect fit for stores' background and area of expertise. It also seemed that the OP had dropped out of the discussion, which was unfortunate. But I had no illusions about changing stores into Mr. Congeniality. Nor would I want to change the always affable Mark C into Mr. Grumps. You're both fine as you are, bickering and all. smile

Originally Posted By: JoelW
You're right; his posts have since become more engaging. Why are you on tosser's bad side suddenly? (ignoring, etc.)

"Suddenly"??? laugh Do your homework! Hit the archives!

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#2126014 - 07/31/13 05:27 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: ZBGM0]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
Haha

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#2126131 - 07/31/13 09:59 PM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: wr]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: stores
B-S (as we loved calling him, though not to his face ha!) does more than imply a 4 note trill, Mark. Every ornament on his list makes use of 4 notes.


You are wrong. The third item on his list, the "short trill" is a three-note trill. The two terms in parenthesis for that item, Pralltriller and Schneller, are both defined as an inverted mordent in Grove. And the inverted mordent is just three notes.

It is true that at one time, the term Pralltriller was a four note trill starting on the upper auxiliary, but that is not how he used it in the list, since he gives it as a synonym for Scheller, which never was a four-note trill.

Of course, you may want to argue that Grove is wrong, too, but some cites at least as solid as Grove would be in order if you do.



Actually, no, I'm not wrong, but I do see now that BS believes the ornament in question could be a pralltriller or schneller. I disagree and here is why. Baroque ornamentation lived into the 19th century. In music written before the nineteenth century, the mordent (written as a shake sign crossed by a vertical line) is a sequence of three notes. It is known as the "lower mordent" distinguishing it from the nineteenth century ornament know as the schneller or upper/inverted mordent.
The pralltriller (half or short trill) is a series of four notes, the first of which is tied to the preceding note, and may occur only after a descending second. The note that is ornamented with the trill must be preceded by the note one diatonic step higher.
Clearly, the ornament in question can be neither.


If the first note is tied to a previous one, it isn't sounded again, and as Grove says, it may be omitted entirely. And if it is omitted, that would appear to leave the ornament as having three notes.



And how, exactly, would you pull that off in this case?
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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#2126238 - 08/01/13 04:47 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: stores]
ZBGM0 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 100
This source is from Wikipeida:


In the baroque period, a number of signs indicating specific patterns with which a trill should be begun or ended were used. In the Klavierbüchlein für Wilhelm Friedemann Bach, Johann Sebastian Bach lists a number of these signs together with the correct way to interpret them. Unless one of these specific signs is indicated, the details of how to play the trill are up to the performer. In general, however, trills in this period are executed beginning on the auxiliary note, before the written note, often producing the effect of a harmonic suspension which resolves to the principal note. But, if the note preceding the ornamented note is itself one scale degree above the principal note, then the dissonant note has already been stated, and the trill typically starts on the principal note.

Several trill symbols and techniques common in the Baroque and early Classical period have fallen entirely out of use, including for instance the brief Pralltriller, represented by a very brief wavy line, referred to by Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach in his Essay on the True Art of Playing Keyboard Instruments (Versuch) (1753–1762).

Beyond the baroque period, specific signs for ornamentation are very rare. Continuing through the time of Mozart, the default expectations for the interpretation of trills continued to be similar to those of the baroque. In music after the time of Mozart, the trill usually begins on the principal note.

All of these are only rules of thumb, and, together with the overall rate of the trill and whether that rate is constant or variable, can only be determined by considering the context in which the trill appears, and is usually to a large degree a matter of opinion with no single "right" way of executing the ornament.

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#2126252 - 08/01/13 05:38 AM Re: Experts for Mozart music (and Trills!)… [Re: stores]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8027
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: stores
B-S (as we loved calling him, though not to his face ha!) does more than imply a 4 note trill, Mark. Every ornament on his list makes use of 4 notes.


You are wrong. The third item on his list, the "short trill" is a three-note trill. The two terms in parenthesis for that item, Pralltriller and Schneller, are both defined as an inverted mordent in Grove. And the inverted mordent is just three notes.

It is true that at one time, the term Pralltriller was a four note trill starting on the upper auxiliary, but that is not how he used it in the list, since he gives it as a synonym for Scheller, which never was a four-note trill.

Of course, you may want to argue that Grove is wrong, too, but some cites at least as solid as Grove would be in order if you do.



Actually, no, I'm not wrong, but I do see now that BS believes the ornament in question could be a pralltriller or schneller. I disagree and here is why. Baroque ornamentation lived into the 19th century. In music written before the nineteenth century, the mordent (written as a shake sign crossed by a vertical line) is a sequence of three notes. It is known as the "lower mordent" distinguishing it from the nineteenth century ornament know as the schneller or upper/inverted mordent.
The pralltriller (half or short trill) is a series of four notes, the first of which is tied to the preceding note, and may occur only after a descending second. The note that is ornamented with the trill must be preceded by the note one diatonic step higher.
Clearly, the ornament in question can be neither.


If the first note is tied to a previous one, it isn't sounded again, and as Grove says, it may be omitted entirely. And if it is omitted, that would appear to leave the ornament as having three notes.



And how, exactly, would you pull that off in this case?


I wouldn't, because the old version of the Pralltriller would the wrong ornament for this case, seeing that there's no note to tie across, or to omit. I'm not sure which other version of a trill I'd choose, because it would depend on tempo and my level of dexterity, and since I haven't tried the passage out on the piano, I don't know what would work best.

At any rate, I was talking about the list of possible Mozart trills given by Badura-Skoda, and not about the question of the OP. The footnote to the third item on the list clearly explains that he is not talking about the old-style four-note Pralltriller that begins on a tied upper note, which he says doesn't occur in Mozart. And if he isn't talking about that, the only option left that he could possibly be talking about is the inverted mordent, a three-note ornament, which just happens to be the modern German usage of Pralltriller.

I could see that, since he is discussing Mozart's trill signs, one might jump to the erroneous conclusion that when he gives Pralltriller along with Schneller as a parenthetical explanation of what he means by a "short trill", he could mean the old usage. But everything points to his using it in the modern sense an inverted mordent that starts on the primary note, and the footnote tries to make sure (although somewhat obliquely) that is what is understood.

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