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Hmmm... I'll just try and steer the conversation elsewhere and aim the focus on the fact that stores is an *********.
I am not here to please your sensibilities and I have no desire to enter into "interchange" with you (as I've stated before). I could be here for days responding to your often inane chitter chatter (that is not meant to be a slight... it's just how most of what I read from you comes across to me).
I've pointed out enough on this subject for those interested to do the homework and learn for themselves. I'm not here to draw things out on the chalkboard. If the answer is a simple one then quite often I'll throw it out there, but, if the answer is one that isn't so evident, then I usually keep things to myself so that those who are not in the know can have the more meaningful experience of their own discovery. I will, however, always attempt to weed out misinformation when I see it (and I hate to say it, but there has always been a great deal of just that coming from Mr. C, who means very well, but often gets carried away when he himself is not always thoroughly grounded and then misleads others who look to him for answers, because anyone who runs their mouth that much MUST know what he's talking about right?)

Thus proving Mark's post right. No matter how right you are (or aren't), your lack of communication skills brings so much negative energy to this forum.

He's certainly implied that. I prefer to think of him as his original username.

I still don't understand the fuss made about his original username... It's not any offensive word that I have ever heard of, and he's most definitely not from the region where it is supposedly an offensive word, so I don't see the fuss.



At the same time, that's what he gets paid to do, so maybe after teaching hours upon hours each day, he may not feel incredibly inclined to keep doing more online, unpaid.

Though that's probably not the point. I think he realizes how so many of the issues cannot be properly solved just by text online, and it's not worth it to him to write a thesis, complete with cited sources and bibliography to properly explain things. And still, especially in regards to piano technique, certain things can only be explained person-to-person, with actual physical interaction.

Of course, that may bring up the question, "well, what's the point of even having the Piano World forum?" There are still countless wonderful subjects to discuss.

What was stores's original name?

Sure -- but:

-- Such a person would rarely handle such things with the insulting provocative hit-and-run that he so often does. There are all kinds of other ways they could do it, if it's just that they don't want to expend the energy and time, like saying their point without the provocation and insult or just staying out of the discussion. And we're not particularly asking him for sources and the like (OldMan did mention that as a possible EASY thing he might do, in case he doesn't want to do anything else, but it's not really what we're talking about), just for meaningful and normal replies to things that are raised in reply to his salvos.

-- The issues on which he says such things -- the things where he pops on with an insult about people's supposed stupidity and ignorance -- often AREN'T that simple, this thread being a perfect example. And the simple things he says are very often simply false.

You're giving him way the benefit of the doubt, and in a way that doesn't work.

To Joel: "Tosser." BTW I didn't find the user name offensive either, just quite odd.
I hadn't known of the meaning that some people complained about. And BTW I'm pretty sure nobody ever would have complained except for how harshly he came on as a new member. I shuddered immediately at his first few posts, even though it was subtle at first. Within days, he was getting into mayhem (not with me).

I understand and agree with everything you're saying. And I thought about the "uncompensated" aspect of helping people online, but didn't want to hand out any easy excuses. And no one expects a thesis, or an online tutoring session. Which is why I thought he could've said something like, "It's too exhaustive a subject to discuss online. But to get you started, I highly recommend so-and-so's book on this subject."

Even after a long day at the piano, I don't believe this would have depleted all of stores' stores.

Maybe he's just a master troll.

Mark,

"Sure -- but:

-- Such a person would rarely handle such things with the insulting provocative hit-and-run that he so often does. "

I don't know about that. I mean, after all, he doesn't owe you a thing, nor do I or anyone. You're not his student. No student would ever talk to a teacher like that, or criticize them so freely to their faces. Also, students pay their teachers

Since we all, every one of us, engage in the uncivil practice of free and open criticism, doubt, overt cynicism, and general nastiness on this forum from time to time, I think your idea that anyone is committed to 1- answer consistently, or 2- be civil or even generous, is deeply flawed.

This forum has all the dubious claims to collegiality and veracity as a singles hotline:

"OMG! YOU PHOTOSHOPPED THAT
______________________!!!"
(insert body part here)

If you want Stores to teach you, call him up, pay him for a lesson, and then sit down, hold your tongue asnd open your ears until the hour is complete. Otherwise, well, you know very well what I'm going to way...

BTW, get over yourself... I have to from time to time...get over myself that is...

No fuss, I thought it was very apt. He should have kept it.

Ouch!

It's more about what he owes to himself -- to avoid making himself appear how he's made himself appear. Plus, y'know, he really does owe us to not keep on being offensive and insulting. If he just stopped that, we wouldn't call him on the other stuff.

And I think you're wrong about what students would or wouldn't say. If we're talking about students of any high level, absolutely they would say things like this to a teacher who spoke so dogmatically, or insultingly, or without any thoughtful follow-up on their replies to what he had said. And when it's all three, the students would say it back to him very forcefully -- or at least darn better should.

But, this is a transcription, so it is automatically an immoral and unclean abomination in its entirety, because there is no way that it can be seen as the composer's intent. There's no need to even bother with the niceties of the trills. If Mozart had meant it to be a keyboard piece, that's what he would have written.

Your analogy is not apt for this scenario. It's entirely contradictory for one to [i]willingly join a public forum and simultaneously act as if it is all beneath them like they're a celebrity being hounded by unscrupulous paparazzi

"Your analogy is not apt for this scenario."

You are projecting far too many of your own personal values and judgements onto a public forum than can possibly be justified.

It's much closer to strangers passing on a train, exchanging the odd remark, than you suggest.

When you get some objectivity, you write us all back.

Actually I half agree with Greg. I agree that coming onto the site doesn't mean that you owe anything about anything.

But with exceptions -- and one of those is.....let's see how to put this....it's a little hard because what Stores does is so unusual....
I could say just that it's an exception when you do insults and put-downs of other members, and I think that would be valid, but the situation with Stores is even more than that.

If you present yourself as a high-level teacher and performer and do high-sounding posts with insults and put-downs of what others have said, you owe some meaningful follow-up to the replies that you get, because the things that you say carry more weight due to how you're presenting yourself. That's in addition to how the severity of the provocativeness in itself arguably demands responsive follow-up.

Mark, you are projecting. Among other things, you are projecting a level of intimacy and trust that does not exist on this forum, nor anywhere digitally, nor does it exist among total stranger in real time.



Oh Mark...

My first teacher made me go play for Aube Tzerko at UCLA, and then Jeanine Dowis at Aspen and Juilliard, three times. And then there were a number of master classes anywhere she could find them. I can't tell you the number of times I played for Martin Katz, it was the running joke of my department for 12 years. Oh, and I did play for Dalton Baldwin twice as well, and Roger Vignoles, and Graham Johnson many times, and Menachem Pressler, et alia. We won't even talk about Taubman.

If you think they would tolerate anyone for one minute sassing off to them the way we do on this forum, in private or public, I dare you to try it to any of their faces. I can tell you, you wouldn't live to see the door on the way out, which you would find yourself outside of shortly after.

And then there was my teacher in Paris, Noel Lee. How much have you personally paid for lessons with a really famous pianist? Those lessons cost me about 1,800FF per hour, every hour (you do the math). I had to work for weeks to even save up enough money to go play for him. Do you think, at that price, I would contradict him for no good reason? Of course one asks questions, and can. But what you are suggesting vraiment dépasse les bornes.

You REALLY let your own students talk to you like that?

I don't. And that is the level of respect I demand from anyone who works with me, no matter what their level. So apparently does Stores.

And hey, you brought up, what was it, "students of any high level"...

Grâce à Dieu you never studied in France...

I, on the other hand, would love for my students to challenge what I say in that way - it shows interest and competence. Provided, of course, that they were actually making a point. If they were just rambling (like some of the nonsense I see from beginners on this forum who are trying to offer advice to other beginners) I would shut them down, of course.

Mark, Greg, is correct. I don't owe you, or anyone else here a thing and I really don't care how I appear here. I tire of hearing you and others ***** about my posts and my attitude, though I rarely post these days unless I see something that really SHOULD be addressed. If you don't like it then don't look. Simple as that. If the thread is full of crap then I'm going to say it's full of crap. If you're wrong about something, then I'm going to say you're wrong. You seem to delight in saying much of what I have to say is false, but you don't say how it's false. I don't deal in falsifications. I simply called out, in this instance, what I saw as erroneous information regarding the aforementioned ornaments. If it offends you to hear that you're wrong, well then, I'm sorry, but you're still wrong. I'm not one to dance around a subject and deal in a bunch of "no, no, you first" blah blah.
By the way, I could probably find an opening for you. Leave your Scriabin at home.

Completely irrelevant. You're leaving out the most important part.

How the teachers talk and behave with the students.

I have no hesitation in saying that none of those people would ever be caught dead talking or behaving in the way that we're talking about here.


Off the subject, but as it happens, I knew people who studied regularly with him and one of them remains a close friend. Lee taught briefly at the college I went to (just before I got there) and I was lucky to hear him when he came back and played a recital. I remember especially the great experience of hearing him play his completion of Schubert's unfinished C major Sonata.

By the way I'm absolutely sure Noel Lee never would have behaved in a way that we're talking about here.
You don't get automatic respect and acceptance by virtue of having a certain role or title; you have to earn and deserve that respect. There are certain kinds of behavior that call for questioning and confrontation, and even just walking out the door and not coming back.


OK, we've learned something more: You don't read too good.

Besides that I pointed out how your assertion about the 3-note version was false, I've noted that much of the general content on here shows how false is your basic rigid view on the subject of the thread. Just look through the first page, and see the specific and learned things that various people said regarding how this is a subjective, flexible, gray-area issue.