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#2124693 - 07/29/13 09:01 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1310
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: knotty
Also, I've seen the E-7b5 in RB 5th edition, as well as colorado, while the 6th edition has Eb7b5. Usually, 6th edition has better changes, but many people use the 5th.
In this case, I hear Eb in Bill / Gomez.

thoughts?
It's called Jazz, Kemosabe. "An it harm none, do what you will."
Sorry . . couldn't resist. smile
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#2124694 - 07/29/13 09:04 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1310
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Love that Bill Evans version. It always amazes me how much variety it is possible to get from 1 tune.
Word! I had to get the whole album . . . (and yesterday I bought the Cedar Walton/Ron Carter duo: Heart & Soul - - hmmm I'm blaming Rufus).
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#2124805 - 07/29/13 12:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2939
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Originally Posted By: knotty
Also, I've seen the E-7b5 in RB 5th edition, as well as colorado, while the 6th edition has Eb7b5. Usually, 6th edition has better changes, but many people use the 5th.
In this case, I hear Eb in Bill / Gomez.

thoughts?
It's called Jazz, Kemosabe. "An it harm none, do what you will."
Sorry . . couldn't resist. smile


Well funny one, it doesn't matter what you say, I'll do what I want, and you know it.

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#2124857 - 07/29/13 02:23 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 533
Loc: Leicester, UK
Knotty, there's a couple of transcriptions of the BE Invitation solo on the web. That dorian or M7th stuff ... if you hear the major 7 as the thing that passes on tge way to a flat 7th then you've got nice choices - use M7 as a passing tone that just goes by w/out emphasis,or emphasize it (linger on it) before resolving it.. Or don't use it at all! ... as you've noticed w/BE.

Invitation is one of the tunes that accomodates a million different changes and subs. So another way to look at it is use ANY set of changes. The caveat being that everyone in the group agrees to the same set. Sometimes starting from the simplest possible set of chord changes leads to great subs and passing chords yoy wouldn't get if you startes with the so-called 'hip' changes, whatever those might be.

My approach is pretty much always the same, which is look at the original sheet music when possible, find the versions (like the BE one w/Eddie Gomez) that are acceped as THE influential recordings, and go from there. Some Invitations worth hearing are the BE, of course (and he messes w/the form), the Coltrane, the Joe Henderson (he's got a lot of recordings of it) and there are others.. A long time ago I used to hear Kenny Baron & Red Mitchell at Bradley's - they had their own way of playing it. Going to Bradley's to hear piano/bass duos was like going ro school. Because you could hear so many different versions of the same tune. Often as not, the versions that got played weren't(official or unofficial) fake book changes.

One more idea is the best players seem to agree on some set of changes to start and then those changes get modified and altered over time as the group gets deeper into how they're playing the tune. Adam Macowicz (great Polish pianist) played me his version a long time ago and he had all kinds of great substitutions and passing chords that no one uses.

Hope this helps ..
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#2124961 - 07/29/13 06:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2939
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Mark,
Yes. That's very useful. So e-7b5 or eb7b5. Its all good then?

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#2124978 - 07/29/13 07:28 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 533
Loc: Leicester, UK
Knotty, It's 100% all good!
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http://www.youtube.com/user/MarkPolishookStudio - Youtube Channel
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#2127797 - 08/04/13 02:57 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
So I decided to call Night Dreamer (Shorter) for a gig tomorrow. I just gave it a try today. High risk. When I actually played it, I didn't realize how short the tune tune is and the changes going by monstrously fast. But I guess, I can ignore the extra chords. Love the sound of this, but maybe it isn't going to sound good playing it too slow..

Just for a double hit of McCoy Tyner I decided we're going to do a jam on F7sus (Passion Dance). I didn't work on the head so we'll just go hit the solo and give me a chance to get something creative out of a single chord. Will be fun.
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#2128293 - 08/05/13 01:18 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Afro Blue (sort of)
https://app.box.com/s/ibqwa1f41ifzlquxydp0

Really just a jam...
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#2128405 - 08/05/13 09:50 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2939
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Sounds really good JW, nice solo.

How's the gigging out there? I sent a guy from camp down your way to go see you at your usual gigging spot. Say hi for me if you see him. Now if only I could remember his name. All I know is he's in the car review business.

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#2128417 - 08/05/13 10:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1310
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Afro Blue (sort of)
Nice solo, good lines.
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#2128467 - 08/05/13 12:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Thank you my friends. I need to create more variety in there I think though. Modal playing is a whole different animal for me.

Now here's a tune, as I mentioned, that I just spent a few minutes on the day before. No one in the band has played it before at a gig. In fact the bass player and drummer had to pull out their Youtubes and give it a few seconds of listening before the set started. LOL. But that's Jazz!

Night Dreamer (Shorter)
https://app.box.com/s/3772s73eb0qk30rlbt3c
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#2128471 - 08/05/13 12:37 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty


How's the gigging out there? I sent a guy from camp down your way to go see you at your usual gigging spot. Say hi for me if you see him. Now if only I could remember his name. All I know is he's in the car review business.



Summer slowed down the gigs but partly that's my fault because I'm not out there looking for it. I'm only doing what comes to me. So I've been down to 3-4 a month. But the good news is that the crowd is getting bigger.

You kind of have a special market there if tap into the Government/Corporate gigs. I managed one Hollywood gig. Pay was good and lots of eye candy but no one really pays attention to you.

I'm finding that I'm really getting into playing the real "Jazz" gigs now where they just show up to listen to you. A real listening audience, like that restaurant we headline in every month. It's a really crazy gig. By the end of the night, we shift to funk all the time and the people start dancing.
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#2128473 - 08/05/13 12:39 PM *New* Master Class "Using the 15 Elements, Plus a Few More:) [Re: jazzwee]
Dfrankjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 122
Loc: NYC
*NEW* Jazz Master Class -"Using the 15 Stylistic Elements Plus a Few More:)

Join Dave for a spinoff of his popular YT video "15 Stylistic Elements for the Advanced Jazz Pianist". New elements include Ghost Notes, 2 level LH, Smashcords, Phunny Phrases, Basslines on 2+4, Shifting Time Signatures, and others. Dave concludes the video with 4 Improv flows on All the Things You are with screen titles highlighting the shifting elements as they appear.

Phree for thee)

http://youtu.be/3mdHoTBVgfM

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#2128479 - 08/05/13 12:49 PM Re: *New* Master Class "Using the 15 Elements, Plus a Few More:) [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 593
Loc: Chicago
Afro Blue: When we play it, the solos are over a minor blues, which is how Mongosantamaria did it, I believe. Coltrane does it like jazzwee's group, soling over an open F-7 chord vamp. Gotta admit I run out of ideas where I'm soling over one chord, whereas the minor blues progression keeps me going!

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#2128485 - 08/05/13 01:04 PM Re: *New* Master Class "Using the 15 Elements, Plus a Few More:) [Re: jjo]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: jjo
Afro Blue: When we play it, the solos are over a minor blues, which is how Mongosantamaria did it, I believe. Coltrane does it like jazzwee's group, soling over an open F-7 chord vamp. Gotta admit I run out of ideas where I'm soling over one chord, whereas the minor blues progression keeps me going!


Yes - it's a challenge to vamp on one chord, but if I did it right, then I would have just gone completely free. The bass player knows to just listen. But it's a work in progress.

The problem is we play so many minor blues tunes all night already: footprints, stolen moments, sugar (in this particular gig).
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#2128525 - 08/05/13 02:12 PM Re: *New* Master Class "Using the 15 Elements, Plus a Few More:) [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 593
Loc: Chicago
I can see your point when you've got 3 other minor blues. On vamping on one chord, I was just at a friends house who had the physical CD for Kind of Blue. I was reading the liner notes and Miles says he created those tunes so they could just focus on melody. Sounds easy in that we think we're always focusing on melody and the chord changes make it hard, but in reality just creating a melody ain't easy. I actually enjoy vamping at the end of a song on one chord. The nice thing about vamping at the end of a song is you let it go as long as it feels good and the bring the song to a close.

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#2128772 - 08/06/13 02:19 AM Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
If you listen to us vamping on one chord, we're not really doing one chord. As I learned from McCoy Tyner, you can really play ANYTHING. I was talking to the bass player tonight and when we both listened to what was in the recording, we were feeding off each other without even thinking about it. We were switching chords in 12 keys.

You can do this pretty much in any dorian mode.

Now my normal drummer wasn't there so there was a sub but otherwise it would vary rhythmically even more.

I'm going to do more of this far out kind of playing. smile



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#2128787 - 08/06/13 03:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1310
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
There's a whole world, nay, a whole universe inside of one chord; you just have to spend time to get in there. It's not easy, takes patience. But it's well worth the effort.
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#2128791 - 08/06/13 03:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
So any tips? (on handling a one chord vamp)
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#2128864 - 08/06/13 09:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 533
Loc: Leicester, UK
Jazzwee,

Here's a transcription of Passion Dance

http://jazzpianoeducation.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/mccoy-tyner-transcription-passion-dance.html.

There are quite a few of them out there on the 'net - some better than others. Seeing how MT plays over his own tune is a world of instruction.

Another world are Coltrane transcriptions. There's probably a few on the web for Impressions and there's a fabulous book of transcriptions of A Love Supreme.

The Dave Liebeman & Steve Grossman book of transcriptions Elvin Jone's Live at the Lighthouse is another great source.

Of course, there's the "old-fashioned" way, which is transcribing whatever you find interesting. Or you can make up your own licks. From there practice them in whatever way suits you so you can work them into your playing.

I'm suggesting transcriptions and practice/analysis of licks only as one kind of thing for a practice routine. There are a million other ways too. Or you might continue trying stuff out in performance (and feeding off your bass player as you mention). You'll begin to see, if haven't already, what you like in your own playing that you'd like to develop further - whether that's through practice of your own exercises and licks or comparing what you do to stuff you find in transcriptions. Or again, the feeding exploration you're doing now sometimes may get you to exactly where you want to go.

Of course, this is the tiniest tip of the iceberg of course. There are classical scores to look at. And techniques for playing outside chord changes that work well over a one-chord tune or vamp are right there in Charlie Parker's Omnibook too ...

Hope this helps!
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#2128933 - 08/06/13 12:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Online   content
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Thank you Mark. I've planned on studying this transcription before but haven't gotten to it. Do you know if the LH was transcribed too somewhere? I was first starting off with that.

I had also, noticed that I need to build more vocabulary (and maybe confidence) in playing these kind tunes intervallicaly like McCoy does. This type of playing requires more practice than is obvious. I've got the visualize the lines differently.

In the heat of the moment, I can run out of ideas and fingers begin to drive me.
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#2128986 - 08/06/13 02:56 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1310
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Guys, George Duke, the most excellent keyboardist, arranger, composer, etc has passed away.
http://www.eurweb.com/2013/08/we-remember-george-duke-dies-at-67/

He was a most excellent groovy singer too:


Edited by chrisbell (08/06/13 03:35 PM)
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#2129050 - 08/06/13 05:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 533
Loc: Leicester, UK
Jazzwee,

There's a book of Tyner transcriptions

http://www.scribd.com/doc/128259526/McCoy-Tyner-Transcriptions

that has that solo with the LH part too. It might be SOMEWHERE out there other than Scribd.

If I can find the link to the solo (w/LH) directly I'll post it.
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http://www.polishookstudio.com - The Blog of the Improvised Line
http://www.youtube.com/user/MarkPolishookStudio - Youtube Channel
http://tinyurl.com/TinyJazzPianoLessons - Tiny Jazz Piano Lessons on Twitter - #tJAZZpl

mark@polishookstudio.com

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#2129058 - 08/06/13 05:20 PM Re: *New* Master Class "Using the 15 Elements, Plus a Few More:) [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Lost Woods Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/13
Posts: 104
Loc: The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Dfrank
*NEW* Jazz Master Class -"Using the 15 Stylistic Elements Plus a Few More:)


Watched this one and enjoyed a lot.
Dave mentioned that Bill uses doorknob style a lot.
If I listen to Bill Solo I also hear a lot comping in the crax or in other words, attacking chords. Especially on his Solo albums vol. 1 and 2.

for example from 4:20 and some time further .. am I right?:


Sounds amazing.

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#2129092 - 08/06/13 06:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
Jazzwee,

There's a book of Tyner transcriptions

http://www.scribd.com/doc/128259526/McCoy-Tyner-Transcriptions

that has that solo with the LH part too. It might be SOMEWHERE out there other than Scribd.

If I can find the link to the solo (w/LH) directly I'll post it.


Wow - THANK YOU! The nice thing about Passion Dance as an example is that it is easy to read since there's only one base chord.
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#2129093 - 08/06/13 06:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
jazzwee Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Guys, George Duke, the most excellent keyboardist, arranger, composer, etc has passed away.
http://www.eurweb.com/2013/08/we-remember-george-duke-dies-at-67/

He was a most excellent groovy singer too:


Wow. Sad to hear. Been listening to him a lot to learn how to play Jazz Funk. Rest in Peace.
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#2130211 - 08/09/13 06:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 401
jazzwee nice work on the Hollywood gig, must have been at some fancy hotel or venue. Take some photos next time!!

I haven't played many gigs at all, summer is the slow period. People want to be outside. I'm rehearsing with a groove/ smooth jazz type band. May look for group gigs soon. Really helps having good rhythm section hold down the time.

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#2130212 - 08/09/13 06:31 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 401
Afro Blues, nice tune. Surprised you guys play it. First time I heard it was this version with Robert Glasper and Esperanza Spalding. very catchy.


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#2130215 - 08/09/13 06:41 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 401
I just heard the original with John Coltrane. Sounds quite different. Glasper's is 4/4? The original is some unusual time meter.

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#2130226 - 08/09/13 07:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 401
Left hand comping chords:

Changing topics for a second, for comping how many different ways do you play a chord in normal or gig situations?

I find my hand remembers shapes that I like and usually play around 4-5. But if I consciously try to work in a new chord while playing it doesn't happen much. I have to sit down and figure out what I want to play.

Like say a 2-5-1 in C, I have my usual chords that my left hand gravitates to. It's almost by habit. But like everyone I can get bored of those sounds.

Dominant chords have more variety because of the ALT notes you can throw in. A b2 #5 on a C major 7 chord ain't gonna sound too nice.


I've been looking at some Keith Jarrett transcriptions and trying out his inner harmony moving notes. It actually takes the fingers a while to get used to it. The hardest part is he uses both left and right hands, while playing the melody note on top. Very tricky.

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