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#2125719 - 07/31/13 06:56 AM Sorry ABF
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1383
Loc: Cameron Park, California
I wanted to apologize to those with whom I've unnecessarily argued and/or simply just insulted as of late. This is a long post so if you don't know what it's immediately about, feel free to save yourself the time reading it.

I'm sorry if this brings down the typically upbeat atmosphere, but I respect too many people here to not feel the need to apologize - even if this is just "the internet." For the few involved and possibly aware, I've just been so passionate about the topic of efficient practice lately (silly, I know, but when you've never known what it feels like to make efficient progress in all of 2 years spent trying to learn to play piano, and then do, you feel inspired enough to be a televangelist) that I wanted to share. Of course, trying to share while putting your own egotistical, and oft-argumentative, spin on things is only doing a disservice to the information - which may likely result in it simply being resented by proxy (think of how kids forced to play Bach against their will as a kid may resultantly grow up to resent his music as an adult) - and to those inexperienced enough to not be able to see things pertaining to piano practice as parts of a whole instead of seemingly random individual parts. Clearly I have a lot of growing up still left to do.

All I really wanted was to not be so confused (to put it into perspective, I had literally no idea how to go from practicing a piece - heck, even a section - of even the simplest of music hands separate to hands together), and while I'd like to think I've made strides in this, I still feel so ignorant and insignificant in what I what I know and little still frustrates me more than the thought of this. Really, what's more unequivocally frustrating than the feeling of helplessness? As a result, I dove into a couple months' worth of research on the topic of efficient practice, spending on average a few hours a day reading various pages on the internet, most of which written by one piano forum user mentioned below (this was relating to learning classical repertoire, by the way. I'm still largely confused by playing jazz). This may seem excessive to many, but learning to play competently is a serious goal and when many pianists practice on average at least 1 hour a day every day, improving - or in my case, multiplying - the efficiency of all that time spent could make the difference between reaching my more serious goals and never being able to play Fur Elise competently and should be made a serious priority. Then, because I was still keeping up with PianoWorld regularly (I'm extremely indebted to this site I've learned so much here) and there were/are always other beginners asking questions pertaining to practicing, I started weighing in prematurely. I don't know that I ever really contradicted myself, but the fact of the matter was I had hardly lived with all the information I'd been taking in and acquired enough personal experience with it to start regurgitating it like I'd done with all the other advice I'd given out prior. But at least I was a comprehensive enough reader that I got the message(s) across - for the most part - that people understood. What I clearly wasn't able to do, though, was to convey a sort of full picture with which all the various "puzzle pieces" could come together and amount to a whole greater than the sum of its parts. I also narcissistically succumbed to delusions of grandeur and came off extremely arrogantly in places and to people that I'd always really respected. Just as Charles Darwin rightfully observed, “ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”

I'd hate to stop trying to provide advice to people asking for help, but am going to stop putting such a subjective and opinionated spin on everything (given my lack of experience and ethos), and just paraphrase, or better yet just provide links, to someone wiser providing advice.

I told keystring how I hated how I thought a lot of what the greatest piano pedagogues taught (Theodor Leschetizky specifically) was probably distorted since they taught what they did and maybe even tried to write about it (this in and of itself is of course, conjecture, but at least conjecture commonly discussed), with people trying to summarize even small modicums of their (the pedagogue's) knowledge and foolishly call them "methods." Yet ironically what I've been doing is exactly this.

Originally Posted By: keystring

I wrote Bernhard and I got a response yesterday morning. He works as a good teacher does, in response to his student and where that student is at. So at different levels there will be different answers. In the forum specific people asked questions, and thus they were answered. "The level of the member ... determines the content of the answer." He mentioned 7X20. It's for those who can't determine a chunk on their own, "total beginners" (which can include someone who has played 10 years, but doesn't know how to learn). I'm concluding that if someone in PW says he doesn't need these numbers, then he is right.

If you have never had direction in practising, then these structured ways that you are following will point the way and allow you to experience structure and direction. Later you will find your own way. But OTHERS who have other methods of structure are still following the same general principal.

Another thing he mentioned was that when the tasks of the piano are described on paper, individual tasks must be isolated but when actually working on music, it's not that way.

As a generality, it is more open and fluid than you might think, and how or how much of it anyone takes depends on where that student is at. I hope he doesn't mind my quoting this part:
"... an advanced player may get an answer that will be useless to the beginner and the intermediate player, in the same way that the answer given to a beginner will dismay the advanced player. Take for instance the 7x20 method. This is for total beginners... For the beginner who is lost, the method provides a way to proceed." He defines "beginner" as someone who still needs to ask: "no matter how advanced is the repertory s/he plays, or how many hears s/he has been practicing the piano."

My sense is that there is room for more approaches, depending on where students are at. It was by a fluke that he got my message since he doesn't go back to PS these days. I wanted clarity for the sake of the forum.


Hopefully others weren't/aren't as arrogantly closed-minded as I was. I write to hopefully bring "clarity" to other beginners to efficient practice that unfortunately may have adopted a similar closed-mindedness (though this isn't to try and lessen my own blame).



The piano pedagogue whose writings I've been reading - honestly, a better word would be revering - lately also had much to say on philosophy and life and I really oughtta start following his advice better myself before trying to pass it on to others. Whether or not it's obvious, I've always been a sensitive person and pretty much lived my whole life according to what I think other people would like me best for. Though the below quote is relevant to real life, it unfortunately doesn't much apply here as what I've largely been doing here is projecting my paranoid beliefs onto kind people and being rude to them rather than it being the other way around. This is a snippet from a quote quoted Here in an old PianoWorld Teacher's Forum thread that started what became an obsessed research and I think this is a good place to end it for now.
Originally Posted By: Bernhard
Quote:
How can I live out my life without being affected by other people's opinions?


It is surprisingly easy. Just pay no attention to them.

Far more difficult is to live your life without being affected by other people´s actions.

Language is a model for sensory experience, just like a map is a model for a
territory. The usefulness of a model is dependent on how well it represents what it is modeling. So we want our maps to be accurate to be of any use. Likewise we want language to be free of semantic mal-formations.

The implicit statement that other people´s opinions affect your life is a semantic mal-formation, a good example of bad language modeling. In reality nothing can affect you, only you can choose to be affected.

Hence, Johnny cannot annoy me, since annoyance is an inner state and no one has the power to cause inner states on me. I am the only one with this power. A better linguistic model for the experience would be: Johnny does something and I chose to react by getting annoyed.

Of course, once you phrase it like that you realize you have myriad choices in how you will react. With a bad model you have no choice, you become increasingly limited and you don´t like it a bit. It is a big temptation to blame Johnny. However the true reason for the experience of limitation is not to be found in Johnny´s opinions (or even actions) but rather in the peculiar way I have used language to model the situation and describe it to myself.


Edited by BB Player (08/02/13 04:12 AM)

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#2125762 - 07/31/13 09:47 AM Re: Sorry ABF [Re: Bobpickle]
Sam S Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 1403
Loc: Georgia, USA
Don't worry about it Bob, honestly. I didn't read those practice threads very closely, but I don't remember anything overbearing.

In the Appalachian Trail hiking community, we have a saying "Hike Your Own Hike", abbreviated HYOH - meaning that you shouldn't impose your idea of what hiking is on other people.

Maybe we need a "Play Your Own Piano" PYOP saying for Piano World - although it's not really needed in the ABF. Now, over in the Pianist Corner, things are very different.

Sam

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#2125768 - 07/31/13 10:04 AM Re: Sorry ABF [Re: Bobpickle]
scorpio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 493
Loc: Connecticut, USA
Bobpickle - I am not sure of what you are addressing here, and I am not inclined to search it out. But I do want to take this time to thank you for all the helpful insights and practice links you post. You have helped me search out technique and practice skills that have been invaluable to me, until I am able to get a teacher. You should not apologize for your passion and enthusiasm. PYOP! wink
_________________________

    Yamaha P-155

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    #2125786 - 07/31/13 10:45 AM Re: Sorry ABF [Re: Bobpickle]
    woodog Online   content
    Full Member

    Registered: 03/21/12
    Posts: 373
    Loc: Bowling Green, KY
    Ya know, I don't care if you can't play chopsticks well. Really, I don't.

    In my day job a seasonal temporary employee conceived of an operational procedure that I use to this day. It was better than my procedure, and that is all that mattered.

    I don't know you, your face, your pianistic ability, the sound of your voice, your age or any of a number of other features that cloud judgement of ideas.

    Three of my five teachers - two of them at the college level - were virtuosos - or, at the very least, accomplished artists - and one of those, the one still alive, is still concertizing.

    None of them taught me how to practice. Maybe the first two tried when I was younger... I can't recall, but the last teacher, the one still living, is the one for whom I gave diligent time and effort for 4 years - well, NO instruction on HOW to practice.

    And the pianist's corner? I don't find 'how to practice' there either.

    It was your enthusiasm that led me to Graham Fitch. It was your enthusiam that led me to this most excellent approach from Bernhard - a writer who is quick to point out, like Chang, that these ideas aren't his, he has just found them effective.

    I'm thankful for your enthusiasm. (yes, this is validation!)
    laugh

    best,

    Forrest
    _________________________
    Graham Fitch's Piano Pedagogy Site
    (A WORTHY RESOURCE!)

    --------------------
    current studies:
    Debussy: Suite Bergamasque
    Beethoven Op. 78
    Bach WTC 1, C# Major (#3)

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    #2125787 - 07/31/13 10:47 AM Re: Sorry ABF [Re: scorpio]
    woodog Online   content
    Full Member

    Registered: 03/21/12
    Posts: 373
    Loc: Bowling Green, KY
    Originally Posted By: scorpio
    Bobpickle - ... You should not apologize for your passion and enthusiasm. PYOP! wink


    Yes!!!! This!!!!

    PYOP!!

    Forrest
    _________________________
    Graham Fitch's Piano Pedagogy Site
    (A WORTHY RESOURCE!)

    --------------------
    current studies:
    Debussy: Suite Bergamasque
    Beethoven Op. 78
    Bach WTC 1, C# Major (#3)

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    #2125835 - 07/31/13 12:05 PM Re: Sorry ABF [Re: Bobpickle]
    jotur Offline
    5000 Post Club Member

    Registered: 09/16/06
    Posts: 5423
    Loc: Santa Fe, NM
    FWIW there are posters I have on ignore for varieties of reasons -

    and you're not one of them.

    I, too, appreciate the enthusiasm. I don't find yours arrogant.

    I understand that sometimes others have thought you might be a little narrow. I've never thought that. I have sometimes thought others are a little, um, a little smug or arrogant or whatever, but your posts don't strike me that way.

    Which is not to say I read all long posts laugh

    But I dip into things when I feel like it, and I've definitely learned some things from some of your posts where you've summarized some of the things you're learning about practicing.

    People are different. Different people annoy different people for different reasons and at different times. You, nor anyone else, can please all the people all the time, and quite usually there's no fault on either side. The world will never be perfectly meshed.

    So I really really appreciate that you have the insight to apologize for sometimes being overly enthusiastic.

    But I wouldn't worry about it over the long run. That insight alone says good things about you.

    FWIW I never learned how to practice, either, and have been on a journey with it. I mostly have applied things I've learned in other endeavors, from Chang, and from posts here.

    It's tremendous fun, isn't it?

    Cathy
    _________________________

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    #2125863 - 07/31/13 12:50 PM Re: Sorry ABF [Re: Bobpickle]
    carlos88 Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 01/18/13
    Posts: 76
    Loc: Colorado
    I have been closely following the 2 art of practicing threads that have been going on lately, and have greatly enjoyed reading the points you've raised, Bobpickle. From a personal standpoint, these threads have been very thought provoking.


    I've told a few people in face-to-face conversations that everything I know about practicing piano, I learned from running. Like woodog, I've had 4 music teachers (2 piano, 2 viola) in my life, any I can't remember any of them ever talking about the art of practicing.

    On the other hand, my few running coaches have been very vocal and thoughtful on training and how that leads to goals and results. And in many ways, those general strategies are applicable to general strategies for piano practice.


    I also now avidly read Graham Fitch, after seeing your references to his site a while ago, and have found the recent pointers to Bernhard's thoughts on practicing to be eye opening as well.

    Anyway, I wanted to thank you for these threads and your perspectives. One of the best things about this forum is reading how people have thought about and tried things, and on what kinds of results (positive or negative) they have had.
    _________________________
    I'd rather play badly than not at all...

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    #2125872 - 07/31/13 01:05 PM Re: Sorry ABF [Re: Bobpickle]
    casinitaly Offline


    Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


    Registered: 03/01/10
    Posts: 4856
    Loc: Italy
    I haven't been following those threads on practicing very closely (not that I don't need the help..but that's another story).

    While it has been very clear that you've been active and a great contributor, I've never seen anything in your posts that could be remotely considered arrogant or offensive.

    As Cathy( Jotur) said above - the mere fact that you are sensitive enough to think you might have gone overboard in the way you demonstrated your enthusiasm and passion is a pretty good indicator that you actually AREN'T someone who needs to apologize.

    As always, on the internet, there is room for misinterpretation. Smilies help, but they don't give the real tone of voice or facial expressions that guide us to the speaker's (writer's) true intention .

    It is clear to me that you count among the good guys Bob.
    _________________________
    XVIII-XXXIV
    Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
    Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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    #2125889 - 07/31/13 01:55 PM Re: Sorry ABF [Re: Bobpickle]
    keystring Online   content
    Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

    Registered: 12/11/07
    Posts: 11506
    Loc: Canada
    Bobpickle, what you did is by and large FANTASTIC. You have given all kinds of resources for people to follow. This is the Internet, and whatever things we come across, it's our responsibility to look carefully at what we find. The members here are thinking men and women, so they are able to do that. The first thing we need is something to examine, and you provided that in droves.

    You highlighted something very important in your "Bernhard method" posts and thread, namely that the way we organize our practice and set goals makes a huge difference. Way back when Bernhard tried to open people's eyes to this. It helped them then (2004? 2005?) over on PianoStreet, and you brought that over here, now, in 2013. If people who are struggling can do one change, namely making sense out of how they practise, that will help a great deal. And you opened to door to that. I was lost myself a decade ago in this respect.

    I got uneasy when people seemed to get hung up on the details: 7 X 20, and sometimes there were worries about it. Did Bernhard actually intend this to be strictly applied? It's mostly because of the past when I was hung up on things. That's why I wrote and asked. So the answer is that this was a way to open the door. If you can't judge how large a chunk is the right size, here is a way to get you started. If you do know, then use that. But you have to get started somehow. And this will do it.

    If following these ideas literally, 7's and everything else, will bring you to a new place, then by all means do it. And it will probably do so for a lot of people. If you feel that the test of "7 times" doesn't seem to work for you but something else doesn't, then don't be anxious about doing it wrong - go for what works. There is not teacher to be able to adjust the lesson for you, so you have to make that decision yourself.

    I started looking for "how to learn", "how to work with a teacher", "what teaching is about" a few years ago because I had encountered problems. I think I ended up talking to about four teachers who tried to share what they do, and listened as well as I could. Several were close to retirement and were looking back. But you know what? I don't know squat by and large. I can figure out, sort of, what works for me as a student, and I can draw on myself to to teach, especially in my actual area. What I learned helped a lot, but did I actually get it right?

    Thing is that music has barely been taught, or taught badly, and a lot of us have grown up virtually "illiterates", myself included, searching in the dark. Are we going to wait for the Perfect Teacher or the Perfect Book to come along? If we don't have absolute perfect knowledge are we going to just let everybody muddle around and not even try? Bobpickle you did good. (not a link) You tried to help people, and signs are, you did help them, and are helping them.

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    #2125904 - 07/31/13 02:17 PM Re: Sorry ABF [Re: casinitaly]
    malkin Online   content
    2000 Post Club Member

    Registered: 04/18/09
    Posts: 2368
    Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
    Originally Posted By: casinitaly

    It is clear to me that you count among the good guys Bob.


    Me too.
    _________________________
    A good student is one who makes the teacher feel like a good teacher.

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    #2125914 - 07/31/13 02:32 PM Re: Sorry ABF [Re: Bobpickle]
    Stubbie Offline
    Full Member

    Registered: 12/16/10
    Posts: 371
    Loc: Midwest USA
    Bob, no need to apologize. You've shared links to a number of sites and posters who discuss methods and principles of practicing the piano, and these have been very helpful. thumb The tone, IMO, has been just about right--not too self-serious--just enthusiastic, eager to share. Please don't stop.
    _________________________
    Wherever you go, there you are.


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    #2125938 - 07/31/13 03:18 PM Re: Sorry ABF [Re: woodog]
    sinophilia Offline

    Gold Supporter until Sept. 05 2014


    Registered: 06/26/12
    Posts: 938
    Loc: Italy
    Originally Posted By: woodog

    It was your enthusiasm that led me to Graham Fitch.


    +1 (and he's really great, so you'll forgive me if I stay with him a little longer and don't care much about Bernhard right now)

    Being teacher-less, I am also obsessed with the search for the best way to practice. But it's a bit like nutrition; one doctor swears by one thing, another for a totally different thing. No single diet fits everybody, but common sense and good basic principles go a long way.
    _________________________
    Diana & Wally - Yamaha W110BW
    Martha Argerich... is an incarnation of the artistic metaphor of the "eternal feminine" that draws us upward. (Sergio Sablich)

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    #2125942 - 07/31/13 03:22 PM Re: Sorry ABF [Re: Bobpickle]
    malkin Online   content
    2000 Post Club Member

    Registered: 04/18/09
    Posts: 2368
    Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
    At least with piano practice the results happen (or fail to happen) in terms of days, weeks or months. With nutrition I never know if all those red M & Ms I ate I was a kid are going to cause cancer at some time in the future.
    _________________________
    A good student is one who makes the teacher feel like a good teacher.

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    #2126198 - 08/01/13 01:33 AM Re: Sorry ABF [Re: Bobpickle]
    Brian Lucas Offline
    500 Post Club Member

    Registered: 09/04/11
    Posts: 946
    I too believe an apology is appreciated but unnecessary. I admire passion, and even enjoy a spirited debate. I think it's good for all of us to challenge what we think we know, no matter what it is or how much it may be. Unless the attacks get personal (which I don't believe yours ever have), I believe good things can come out of people who disagree and challenge each other.
    _________________________
    -Brian
    BM in Performance, Berklee College of Music, 21+ year teacher and touring musician
    My Downloadable Video Piano Lessons
    My Sight Reading eBook
    My Music

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    #2126209 - 08/01/13 02:14 AM Re: Sorry ABF [Re: Bobpickle]
    earlofmar Online   content
    1000 Post Club Member

    Registered: 03/21/13
    Posts: 1357
    Loc: Australia
    Bobpickle a very magnanimous post indeed, although I don't see that apologizing to the ABF is required. The world needs enthusiastic people willing to stand up and shout if need be what they believe is right. How else can you drown out the mediocre and the unscrupulous.
    _________________________
    I thought I understood endurance sport; then I took up piano
    XXXIV-5-XXX

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    #2126242 - 08/01/13 05:01 AM Re: Sorry ABF [Re: Bobpickle]
    rnaple Offline

    Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


    Registered: 12/23/10
    Posts: 1957
    Loc: Rocky Mountains
    Bob.... Your posting on the Bernhard's method has helped me alot. Even though I have followed the general idea and guidance of it. It is something that I had an understanding of in a different way. I never had it focused on piano practice before. I"d like to thank you for this.
    The threads. I have gone over lightly. Passing on the noise. Always stopping where it said: Bobpickle. I would read there. That's where the information was at.
    We are constantly moving. It's like a spiral of training. Either we are on an upward spiral. Or a downward spiral. Sometimes it is obvious someone is on a downward spiral in their post. It is not rude to confront that. It is love.

    And then sometimes we have posts from people who are just trying to create discussion. It is obvious.

    I come on the internet hoping for some intelligent input. Something to actually think about. I thank people like you for that.
    _________________________
    Ron
    Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
    The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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    #2126261 - 08/01/13 06:37 AM Re: Sorry ABF [Re: Bobpickle]
    Michael_99 Offline
    500 Post Club Member

    Registered: 07/28/12
    Posts: 935
    Loc: Canada Alberta
    Bobpickle, I have read your post, here:

    I wanted to apologize to those with whom I've unnecessarily argued and/or simply just insulted as of late. This is a long post so if you don't know what it's immediately about, feel free to save yourself the time reading it.

    I'm sorry if this brings down the typically upbeat atmosphere, but I respect too many people here to not feel the need to apologize - even if this is just "the internet." For the few involved and possibly aware, I've just been so passionate about the topic of efficient practice lately (silly, I know, but when you've never known what it feels like to make efficient progress in all of 2 years spent trying to learn to play piano, and then do, you feel inspired enough to be a televangelist) that I wanted to share. Of course, trying to share while putting your own egotistical, and oft-argumentative, spin on things is only doing a disservice to the information - which may likely result in it simply being resented by proxy (think of how kids forced to play Bach against their will as a kid may resultantly grow up to resent his music as an adult) - and to those inexperienced enough to not be able to see things pertaining to piano practice as parts of a whole instead of seemingly random individual parts. Clearly I have a lot of growing up still left to do.

    All I really wanted was to not be so confused (to put it into perspective, I had literally no idea how to go from practicing a piece - heck, even a section - of even the simplest of music hands separate to hands together), and while I'd like to think I've made strides in this, I still feel so ignorant and insignificant in what I what I know and little still frustrates me more than the thought of this. Really, what's more unequivocally frustrating than the feeling of helplessness? As a result, I dove into a couple months' worth of research on the topic of efficient practice, spending on average a few hours a day reading various pages on the internet, most of which written by one piano forum user mentioned below (this was relating to learning classical repertoire, by the way. I'm still largely confused by playing jazz). This may seem excessive to many, but learning to play competently is a serious goal and when many pianists practice on average at least 1 hour a day every day, improving - or in my case, multiplying - the efficiency of all that time spent could make the difference between reaching my more serious goals and never being able to play Fur Elise competently and should be made a serious priority. Then, because I was still keeping up with PianoWorld regularly (I'm extremely indebted to this site I've learned so much here) and there were/are always other beginners asking questions pertaining to practicing, I started weighing in prematurely. I don't know that I ever really contradicted myself, but the fact of the matter was I had hardly lived with all the information I'd been taking in and acquired enough personal experience with it to start regurgitating it like I'd done with all the other advice I'd given out prior. But at least I was a comprehensive enough reader that I got the message(s) across - for the most part - that people understood. What I clearly wasn't able to do, though, was to convey a sort of full picture with which all the various "puzzle pieces" could come together and amount to a whole greater than the sum of its parts. I also narcissistically succumbed to delusions of grandeur and came off extremely arrogantly in places and to people that I'd always really respected. Just as Charles Darwin rightfully observed, “ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”

    I'd hate to stop trying to provide advice to people asking for help, but am going to stop putting such a subjective and opinionated spin on everything (given my lack of experience and ethos), and just paraphrase, or better yet just provide links, to someone wiser providing advice.

    I told keystring how I hated how I thought a lot of what the greatest piano pedagogues taught (Theodor Leschetizky specifically) was probably distorted since they taught what they did and maybe even tried to write about it (this in and of itself is of course, conjecture, but at least conjecture commonly discussed), with people trying to summarize even small modicums of their (the pedagogue's) knowledge and foolishly call them "methods." Yet ironically what I've been doing is exactly this.

    Originally Posted By: keystring
    My teacher has been a maverick from the start, and his teaching has been under continuous development over 40 years. Bernhard started questioning things rather late. He did not want what he put together to die with him, but realized that as soon as it got written down it would become a "system" and lose its actual nature. The closest thing he could do was by passing it on to me as much as possible - I am the book. Once I taught a student long enough to give her an approach to working on a piece, using his approach and I panicked: "How can I teach your way when you are drawing on your own experiences and I can only draw on my own instinct?" He said that by drawing on my instinct, I was teaching his way. If I mimicked his "method" I would be working contrary to his way. It was a huge lesson.

    I wrote Bernhard and I got a response yesterday morning. He works as a good teacher does, in response to his student and where that student is at. So at different levels there will be different answers. In the forum specific people asked questions, and thus they were answered. "The level of the member ... determines the content of the answer." He mentioned 7X20. It's for those who can't determine a chunk on their own, "total beginners" (which can include someone who has played 10 years, but doesn't know how to learn). I'm concluding that if someone in PW says he doesn't need these numbers, then he is right.

    If you have never had direction in practising, then these structured ways that you are following will point the way and allow you to experience structure and direction. Later you will find your own way. But OTHERS who have other methods of structure are still following the same general principal.

    Another thing he mentioned was that when the tasks of the piano are described on paper, individual tasks must be isolated but when actually working on music, it's not that way.

    As a generality, it is more open and fluid than you might think, and how or how much of it anyone takes depends on where that student is at. I hope he doesn't mind my quoting this part:
    "... an advanced player may get an answer that will be useless to the beginner and the intermediate player, in the same way that the answer given to a beginner will dismay the advanced player. Take for instance the 7x20 method. This is for total beginners... For the beginner who is lost, the method provides a way to proceed." He defines "beginner" as someone who still needs to ask: "no matter how advanced is the repertory s/he plays, or how many hears s/he has been practicing the piano."

    My sense is that there is room for more approaches, depending on where students are at. It was by a fluke that he got my message since he doesn't go back to PS these days. I wanted clarity for the sake of the forum.


    Hopefully others weren't/aren't as arrogantly closed-minded as I was. I write to hopefully bring "clarity" to other beginners to efficient practice that unfortunately may have adopted a similar closed-mindedness (though this isn't to try and lessen my own blame).



    The piano pedagogue whose writings I've been reading - honestly, a better word would be revering - lately also had much to say on philosophy and life and I really oughtta start following his advice better myself before trying to pass it on to others. Whether or not it's obvious, I've always been a sensitive person and pretty much lived my whole life according to what I think other people would like me best for. Though the below quote is relevant to real life, it unfortunately doesn't much apply here as what I've largely been doing here is projecting my paranoid beliefs onto kind people and being rude to them rather than it being the other way around. This is a snippet from a quote quoted Here in an old PianoWorld Teacher's Forum thread that started what became an obsessed research and I think this is a good place to end it for now.
    Originally Posted By: Bernhard
    Quote:
    How can I live out my life without being affected by other people's opinions?


    It is surprisingly easy. Just pay no attention to them.

    Far more difficult is to live your life without being affected by other people´s actions.

    Language is a model for sensory experience, just like a map is a model for a
    territory. The usefulness of a model is dependent on how well it represents what it is modeling. So we want our maps to be accurate to be of any use. Likewise we want language to be free of semantic mal-formations.

    The implicit statement that other people´s opinions affect your life is a semantic mal-formation, a good example of bad language modeling. In reality nothing can affect you, only you can choose to be affected.

    Hence, Johnny cannot annoy me, since annoyance is an inner state and no one has the power to cause inner states on me. I am the only one with this power. A better linguistic model for the experience would be: Johnny does something and I chose to react by getting annoyed.

    Of course, once you phrase it like that you realize you have myriad choices in how you will react. With a bad model you have no choice, you become increasingly limited and you don´t like it a bit. It is a big temptation to blame Johnny. However the true reason for the experience of limitation is not to be found in Johnny´s opinions (or even actions) but rather in the peculiar way I have used language to model the situation and describe it to myself.

    _________________________
    A piano teacher's job is severalfold. One must simultaneously be a master of music, neurophysiology, neuropsychology, cognitive science, and most importantly, communication.

    ___________________________________________________

    Bob,

    I enjoy your posts. Your great contributions are appreciated to the threads.

    All of us are on our own journey of the unknown.


    I am politely but highly opinionated.

    No need to apologize, Bob. Keep up the the good work. You find great sites on the web with great piano information.

    Thanks.

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