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Okay, so this may not be what you think. Sorry, we're not going that deep into the theory of these pieces. (unless someone wants to ) This thread really just pertains to the individual movements of Chopin's last two sonatas, and what he would have called them had he not published them as a group of pieces. Let's just say the first movement of the third sonata was its own piece. What kind of piece would this be? What do you think he would have titled it? Likewise with the other three movements and all four movements of the second sonata if you want.
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Very interesting topic! I'm not even sure I can come up with any answers -- won't know till I turn on the part of my brain to try it, and won't do that until after this preamble -- and don't even know if there are any decent answers, but.....nice topic! You come up with pretty good ones. Let's just say the first movement of the third sonata was its own piece. What kind of piece would this be? What do you think he would have titled it? Well, it's in such clear "sonata form," and so clearly the first movement of a sonata, that I think it would have had to be a new Chopin title: "Sonata Movimento" If he had placed in one of his existing categories, I'd have to say he would have written it a bit differently -- like, the development section wouldn't be there, or at least it would be somewhat different and/or placed in the piece in a different way. Allowing for some such changes, I'd say Ballade -- even though the ballades are all in some kind of triple meter and this isn't. Oh -- "Fantaisie" works too, perhaps better because of the lack of the triple meter. I'll leave the rest for other people to start off.
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...nice topic! You come up with pretty good ones. Thanks. The idea came to me because I was listening to the first movement thinking.. "This would be one of my top three favorite Chopin pieces even if it was a standalone piece." That's how much the first movement speaks to me! Could it be a Rondo maybe? I am not familiar with Rondo form. (Is that even a thing?)
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The fourth movement of the 3rd sonata could easily be a tarantella standing alone....albeit it a very dramatic and heroic one.. the third movement I could see as a "nocturne-fantasy" or simply "Largo" (Chopin did publish a piece called "largo"). The 2nd movement could have been a prelude along the lines of op. 26 and 45.... The first movement is difficult. It is clearly more in sonata form than anything else, though it could also be a fantasy I suppose..
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....the first movement.... Could it be a Rondo maybe? I am not familiar with Rondo form. (Is that even a thing?) You haven't been paying attention! Just kidding. I guess this just means you don't yet know much about the different forms. This isn't close to a rondo (and yes, there very much is such a thing). As I said, it's extremely what's called "sonata" form. I can imagine that this is a confusing term, because the word is usually used for the multi-movement thing. But it's also the term for a kind of form of a single movement or piece. It is the form of most first movements of sonatas, as well as of most other multi-movement things like symphonies, concertos, trios, quartets etc. (and also often of other movements of those pieces). "Sonata" form means (generally) an "exposition" consisting of two themes, in sequence; then often or usually the whole exposition is repeated; then a development section; then a "recapitulation" (or "recap") consisting of a return of the two themes. This Chopin movement deviates from the norm in that the first theme isn't repeated in the recapitulation, but even so, the movement is extremely clearly and strongly in sonata form. By the way, the absence of the first theme from the recap is often explained/justified by the extent to which it is used in the development section; in a sense, that function functions also as the appearance of the 1st theme in the recap. "Rondo" is a movement or piece where one theme (usually the opening theme) keeps coming back, and in between there are other themes -- sometimes (rarely) the same other theme. The last movement of this sonata is an example of that rarer kind of rondo. Actually in this case, the 'same other theme' is a theme group rather than a single theme, but we don't have to get into that.
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Sonata 2 Mov. 1 - "how is this LH possible!?" Mov. 2 - "AHDKFRIEIFHDUDIJFDJGHDEDJD* Mov. 3 - 'I'm tempted to play the third part FF with lowered bass octaves" Mov. 4 - " my hands are enantiomers, how am I supposed to do these parallel runs..."
Sonata 3 Mov. 1 - "glorious sum of 2 bar phrases" Mov. 2 - "totally unexpected key" Mov. 3 - "omg this is so pretty" Mov. 4 - "virtuosity Chopin-style: huge left hand patterns, polyrhythms, legato everything"
Maybe the fourth movement is "finally, a movement that doesn't end on D# or E flat!"
Last edited by Kuanpiano; 08/03/13 08:29 AM.
Working on: Chopin - Nocturne op. 48 no.1 Debussy - Images Book II
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The second movement of Opus 58 is very similar to a passage in the Bb minor scherzo, and in fact the movement could be a condensed scherzo (it is in a similar form, albeit very abbreviated).
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Polyphonist
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....Let's just say the first movement of the third sonata was its own piece.... BTW, another thing about the piece that IMO would have had to be different if it were a stand-alone: THE ENDING That could never be the ending of a stand-alone piece of Chopin's -- absolutely not ever. Check it out, and see if you don't see it that way too! The ending, as it is, is something that absolutely must continue.
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....Let's just say the first movement of the third sonata was its own piece.... BTW, another thing about the piece that IMO would have had to be different if it were a stand-alone: THE ENDING That could never be the ending of a stand-alone piece of Chopin's -- absolutely not ever. Check it out, and see if you don't see it that way too! The ending, as it is, is something that absolutely must continue. Oh absolutely! I've always thought this. I wonder what Chopin might have done... I think he might have left out the final descending run and following cadence, and developed it into a miraculous coda that I can't begin to imagine. His codas (and everything else ) got better and better as he got older.
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(Chopin did publish a piece called "largo"). In E-flat major? A piece, I was under the impression, he tried to destroy and was only published a little after his death in 1937? He hated that piece...or so I was under the impression Um...nocturne-fantasie suits the movement quite well, I feel...
Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3
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(Chopin did publish a piece called "largo"). In E-flat major? A piece, I was under the impression, he tried to destroy and was only published a little after his death in 1937? He hated that piece...or so I was under the impression .... I actually 'performed' the piece once, sort of -- at a friendly soiree recital, basically as an exercise. I was getting ready for my first recital in many years -- was going to be performing a "secret mystery" piece that I had just learned for the occasion and wouldn't be playing beforehand for anybody, and wasn't sure that at my advanced age I'd be able to do something like that. I used this Largo as sort of a dry run -- a new piece that I'd be playing in public before having played it for anyone. I didn't play it "largo." I played it moderato/allegretto, at which speed it sounds like a college drinking song. I liked it that way. But my teacher, who was hosting the soiree, walked out to start putting out the food and drinks. But who knows, maybe Chopin would have liked it better at that tempo. I agree that the Largo movement of the Sonata as a stand-alone could easily have been called a Nocturne. And I agree with Opus Maximus that the last movement could possibly have been called a tarantella. I don't see it that way and it would be an unusual tarantella, but I sure can't think of any better name (except maybe just "Rondo").
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sonata 2:
1) Fantaisie ('le cauchemar') 2) Danse macabre 3) a stroll in the park 4) étude/prélude
sonata 3:
1) Fantaisie/Rhapsodie 2) étude 3) Nocturne 4) Ballapolorondo
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
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sonata 2:
3) a stroll in the park I assume we are to assume irony there.
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sonata 2: 3) a stroll in the park I definitely don't get "stroll in the park" from the Funeral March movement.
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Polyphonist
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sonata 2: 3) a stroll in the park I definitely don't get "stroll in the park" from the Funeral March movement. Perhaps he meant "stroll in the park on a cold, dead, dark late-Autumn evening".
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Perhaps he meant "stroll in the park on a cold, dead, dark late-Autumn evening".
Or perhaps a stroll along, say, Kercheval Avenue in Detroit.
Jason
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