Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Better and heavier key action Kawai CN34 or Roland Hp 505?

Hello,I d like to know which of these digital pianos have a better key action :Roland HP 505 (PHiii key action) or Kawai es7(RHII key action).and which one is heaver(once I ve read that ph3 roland is a little light and "bottoms out") , because I ve just moved to other town and I cant take my piano with me,and I am a classical piano student (studying at moment chopin etudes op 10 1 ,5 e op 25 n 6 e Beethoven concerto n 3 and sonata apassionata),so I need a digital piano with very good key action and somewhat heavy key beacuse I am used to playing on Boston grand pianos.
other question: is about the pedal kawai F-30,It Works on the es7?
and another(maybe stupid) question: a roland pedal RPU3 would work in kawai es7 ? The reason I ask that is the difficult to find kawai acessories in Brazil

Thank you


Leonardo

Hi Leonardo,

though I am usually a bit leaning towards Kawai Instruments, if you really have to choose between these exact two models you mention, I'd go for the Roland. Why ?

1) IMHO, the Super Natural piano engine is more suitable for serious classical music studying in expression , sound development and control than the PHI engine found in the ES7 (higher models got better engines : HI-XL).

2) It seems Kawai is harder to get by in Brazil and may even be quite expensive at your place compared to other places in the world (judging from your writing). And also the three pedal F30 won't work ; you would have to buy the special Kawai ES7 stand and three pedal unit. My guess is the RPU3 won't work either on the ES7 in the way you'd expect , but I have no hands-on experience with that. Still I would be surprised if it worked in the intended way.

Yes the PHI-III bottoms out a bit harder, but the weight is about the same as on the RH II and PHI-III controls the Super Natural Engine very well.

In short: if I'd have to study classical music and had no access to some good software piano's , but have to use what the internal AP sound offers , I'd go for the SN Roland (with PHA-III keybed indeed; NOT Ivory-G or any other low weight version of the ROland boards). If you're bypassing the internal engines and use software piano's for studying , the choice is harder; both keybed are good - perhaps the PHA-III a tad better, but it's also less quiet.

Hello Leonardo,

To answer your initial questions, no I'm afraid the F-30 pedal unit is not compatible with the ES7, nor is the Roland RPU unit. In order to obtain triple-pedal functionality, you would need to purchase the ES7's stand and triple-pedal unit, or combine the included F-10H pedal with the F-20 double-pedal accessory.

With that point addressed, may I ask why you are comparing a console type instrument (HP-505) with a portable type instrument (ES7)? My recommendation is that you compare the HP-505 with a CA65, and the ES7 with an FP-80 - these are much closer product types. Perhaps you could clarify your specific needs (portability?) and budget?

Kind regards,
James
x

Thank you JFP, In fact the kawai es7 here costs +-3500 Dollars(7000 reais) and the Roland hp 505 4600 Dollars(9200 dollars).The stand and the f 301 pedal of the kawai are not available in Brazil,I would need to import it.
And regarding about the "bottom out" how could I express it with other words since I don t know the exact meaning of that(sorry for my english)
Thank you a lot

Leonardo, thank you for providing the pricing details.

I do not know why the stand and triple pedal accessories are unavailable in Brazil. However, my recommendation would be to contact Kawai's distributor in your country, Fritz Dobbert:

Certainly the stand and pedals appear to be available on their website:

http://www.fritzdobbert.com.br/es7.html

Referring back to my previous email, you may also wish to consider the CA15 digital piano, which features a real wooden key action, similar to that of the higher specification CA65/CA95 models.

Kind regards,
James
x

Hello James
The main trouble is I Can´t afford the CA 65( too expensive in Brazil) and the roland hp 505 and the es7 are in affordable price range for me.I would need the digital piano to study the pieces that I will play in recitals ,tests and in competitions,so the need of a reallistic key action ,somewhat heavy and which one (hp 505 or kawai es7 that are in the same price range here) has a better and heavier one.I suppose both pedal systems are great with several levels of pedalling(half damper system I suppose).Portability is not a concern for me
a console or a portable would be fine, my concer is primarily about the key action and the heaviness of the Keys.
Thank you a lot James,I hope I Clarified my purpose and needs.

Leonardo, the CN34 offers many of the features of the ES7 in a console form, with triple pedals, however I do not know about the pricing in your country, unfortunately.

Kind regards,
James
x

Thank you James I found it now here (4100 dollars ,8200 reais)
I think I will buy the CN 34 or the hp 505- and which one offers a more reallistic key action( ph iii and rh2 are equivalent?) and heavier one , and about the pedal system which one is more realistic??

Thank you a lot

Leonardo, as JFP noted above, both the Roland PHAII and Kawai RHII actions are of similar quality. To assess which one is more suitable for your needs, the best thing to do is go out and play-test these instruments for yourself.

Best of luck.

Kind regards,
James
x

Thank you James, since the key actions are similar in quality,would you know tell me which one is heavier? and which sound source is better Progressive Harmonic Imagingâ„¢ (PHI)vs Supernatural, the difference in poliphony 128 vs 256, is that importante and if tha kawai has fortepiano sounds ? In Brazil some models doesn t have in my state, so it s hard to test.
Thank you a lot

Leonardo, the ugly truth is that the vast majority of the most enthusiastic digital piano followers do *NOT* have a serious background in classical music for piano. Therefore, it would be wise to question whether the people here are even qualified to answer your concerns.

Also, have you considered Yamaha?

Oh go away ! I have followed classical musical training at the royal conservatory (piano , yes). Take your rants somewhere else, we're trying to help some people here; doesn't seem you're interested in helping people, other than endlessly rant about how bad DP's are for the world. How does that help anyone ? Yes, a DP is not the same thing as a real acoustic and a (good) real acoustic would be best for practice, but in many cases people CAN't have an acoustic in their apartment for several reasons. Just live with that fact , will you and accept the reality that in that case a DP is the only alternative. Be it with, or without software Piano's as extension.

Back on topic: if the keybed is your main concern, I would indeed follow James Idea to get the price and delivery time of a CA15. It has the best keys of the three and may still be within your budget. (Sound wise , the Roland and higher Kawai models are superior though).

Cheers, J

Thank you JFP, Unfortunately the Kawai ca 15 is not available in Brazil, I Will call the digital piano store tomorrow to check if they gave in the show room the roland and the kawai cn 34 , if they dont have i will probably buy kawai cn 34. It s available in Brazil the mp 10 , and the cs 65 ,but they are very expensive

Thank you
Leonardo

If you are looking for "heavy" action, try Yamaha GH/GH3. But I consider it too heavy, specially when compared to real Yamaha grand (not the concert grand but bit smaller), which I have chance to play from time to time. I really have no idea what action Yamaha used as "model" for their GH/GH3 actions (CFX maybe ?).

Just a thought , but are they selling the VPC1 in Brazil (and can they deliver within a certain time-frame) ? I assume you type your messages on a computer, so hooking up this computer with the VPC and using pianoteq or another software piano, could also be a good alternative. As long as you practice on (good) headphones , that could even be a cheaper solution and still provide you with the best keys and best sound and control over the sound. If you need speakers, things become more complicated and expensive of course...

Any chance you can try something for yourself somewhere in a shop ? Always the best way to discover which piano suits you best...

First rule of benefiting from the digital piano forum is not to believe anything StarvingLion says. He's a noob and a troll who only hangs out here to irritate others. He just barely got his first digital piano, has no significant experience with any others, and knows next to nothing about digital pianos or those who play them--I don't know whether he plays at all, actually. He's always saying stuff that's wrong, self-contradictory, stupid, or at least offensive and everyone hates him.

We should write a disclaimer like the above and take turns posting it every time he rears his ugly head around here so people who are new don't make the mistake of listening to him.

Actually having been around this forum for a long time I can tell you that, though they come from all walks of life, the majority of the DP followers in this forum, especially the active ones, are classically trained and very experienced in playing classical music on acoustics. We certainly have players who specialize in jazz and other genre (professionally and otherwise) but they, as well as the classical folks, are excellent resources on this type of thing.

However, if you are an advanced player, there's really no alternative to playing these actions yourself to decide which you think is closer to your ideal action. Both the Kawai and Roland you mention have very fine actions and sounds and are similar to acoustics of one type or another, though their feel is not similar to each other (just as two acoustics may feel quite different from each other). Based on your expressed preferences, I think it's more likely that you will prefer the Kawai, but you would be well-served by testing them and verifying that yourself.

Thank all of you for the information
J, the vcp1 is not available here too,
I am going to test the digital keyboard on tuesday and a restored bechestein 85 Keys- the problem is I dont know if my apartment has enough room for a vertical piano.
I used to live in a house with my parentes in other city and had a piano august Forster,now I left It to study.

By the way do you have information about a vertical piano brand called Rosler? I am not sure if it s produced by petrof or if it is a rosler petrof.


Thank you a lot

It is in the end the combination of keybed and sound, which makes up the instrument as you will feel it. I don´t agree with your attempt to separate them from each other.

Some times it is mentioned that the Roland SN sound would sound "muffled", and discussions about this quickly start.
I found out during the last year playing one, that the sound is not muffled if playing the piano with its "key weight" parameter set to its default value, but that it is indeed sounding a little bit muffled if increasing this value to have the feeling of playing heavier weighted keys.
The thing is, that if playing with the default parameter, then you will take advantage of gaining maximum expressiveness. The dynamics and timbre changes, the resonance emulation and the sustain of the Roland SN pianos anyway, are just produced at excellent quality - and the keys feel light as on an very expensive grand piano.
But if playing with increased, heavier feeling parameter, then its touch is accordingly perceived heavier, closer to not so expensive grand pianos and in general closer to upright pianos, and it helps me - a beginner - to much easier control my dynamics. The sound is still produced very well, but unfortunately no more excellent, because it now does not become as nicely filled with the articulative, campanulate or harp alike singing high frequencies of a fully rich piano tone anymore, and rising the Brilliance adjustment can´t fully compensate for it.

As you are willing to become a professional player, my advice as a novice piano player is, that the HP-505 is excellent if you play it at its light, default key weight setting - but you have to learn to very well control your dynamics then. If you would anyway not be willing to play the HP-505 at its default key weight setting, but would prefer to permanently increase it, then better go for a Yamaha or Kawai keybed and check if their generally much brighter, brut sound of those can please you ("brut" as of sparkling wine, not at all derived from "brutal"!).

@ Lenoardo; comparing the CN34 with the HP505 is a bit of an uneven race, considering the HP hovers in a higher price range as a model. Sometimes this is offset by some weird increases in Kawai prices in some regions; but as an instrument it IS more comparable to the CA series than CN. Therefore I wouldn't be surprised if you found the overall experience of the HP more pleasing, but you never know. Key-touch and sound can be very personal. The SN sound-engine of the Roland I rate more expressive and more precisely to control for classical music than the standard PHI found in the CN34, which isn't bad at all - but a bit simpler in design. Of course the sound is so different , coming from another brand of grand-piano, that you still might like one over the other anyway as Marco indicates. But I agree with him that with the 505 there's not so much you can go wrong with and you can make some adjustments to your liking.

If you can test-play the Roland and are happy with it and can NOT test-play the Kawai; I would seriously reconsider the idea of ordering the CN blindly. Try to find a place where you CAN test a CN34 or ES7 . If this is totally impossible AND the Roland didn't disappoint you (take your time to get used to it; not only a quick run) ; than that could be a good choice. If you DO get to testplay both, than the choice is easier to make and either the CN or HP could be fine. Just don't order anything without trying the instrument , or a very close relative (CN34/ES7 , Hp505/HP507/FP80) so you know what you're up to.

If they have recent Yamaha's around in the same shop, give it a go too; the more things you've tried for real, the better it is for your final decision.

By the way - I thought an acoustic was no option , but now see you might get a Bechstein in your room (?); best is of course if you can have a good acoustic for your studies.

Leonardo,
I don't know from which part of Brazil you are, but have you thought about flying to Curitiba, Rio or Sao Paulo or some other big city to find a good music store? Or call directly to the piano dealers?

I will not help you with pianos, but I spend few good weeks in Brazil, and everything there is about 30% more expensive than in europe.

If you want to spend so much money, it can be wise to spend some money on travelling to get the piano you like.