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#2131535 - 08/12/13 04:52 AM 3 2/3 over 4 time signature
Michael Sayers Offline
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Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1146
Loc: Stockholms län, Sverige
Hi Everyone,

There seem to be a variety of ideas online about this, maybe the solution in the highest and lowest staff here is clear enough?



I realize of course that the inner staves can be cross beamed, the main concern is how to convey the extra two thirds of a beat with minimal confusion.

The key signature is in three flats as other than four measures including this one the music centers firmly around E-flat Major or C Minor.

M.

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#2131552 - 08/12/13 06:01 AM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers]
Nikolas Online   content
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5300
Loc: Europe
Once again:

Do NOT use 4 staves. There's no reason to do that.

Now, in this case (And in the previous case, in the other thread)...

Since you're effectively holding the initial chords, with the pedal, you can just write a generic duration (whole note, or smaller) and add some ties, to show that they should be "let vibrate" (l.v.), or add the pedal sign, or the sostenuto pedal sign.

As far as the time signature that you're asking, right now it's fairly complicated, because you've beamed everything together, which creates a bit of a headache (so much that you had to actually show which beats are where...).

The problem is that you're 32nds are actually part of tuplets (12 notes in the duration of 8), which creates an even bigger mess.

Solutions:

1. Instead of 12 notes in the place of 8, put the total notes in the place of 3 quarters (single beam, with a bracket above showing a dotted half note).

2. Instead of 12 notes in the place of 8, have them played normally (8 notes in the duration of 8) and thus end up with a figure that's a total of 32... 32nds (thus a whole note). The whole bar would then be 5/4

Hope this helps...
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#2131605 - 08/12/13 08:50 AM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Nikolas]
Michael Sayers Offline
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Loc: Stockholms län, Sverige
Thanks Nikolas, and it is helpful.

The connected beaming is to have the 32nd notes as one musical gesture across the beats. There are measures as well in 5/4 and also one in 3 1/2 over 4, definitely the 32nd notes occupy 2 2/3 beats in the music.

For something so harmonically old-fashioned the time signatures are bit on the margin!

M.

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#2131650 - 08/12/13 10:12 AM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers]
Nikolas Online   content
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The level of details that you ask from your notation sometimes is too much... Are you really playing this very bar to last 3/4 and 0.666/4? If you actually are, just leave it at that. If you feel that in the heat of the battle you can add 0.33/4 then just make the whole gesture 3 beats (plus an extra one the rest) and you're done.

In any case you're already making these notes into tuplets...
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#2131657 - 08/12/13 10:19 AM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13797
Loc: Iowa City, IA
The standard time signature for what you want is 11/8.

Use beaming to show the beats. If you want to show where the gesture is, that's what phrase marks are for.
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#2131678 - 08/12/13 10:52 AM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Kreisler]
Axtremus Offline
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Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6186
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
The standard time signature for what you want is 11/8.

Use beaming to show the beats. If you want to show where the gesture is, that's what phrase marks are for.
I would be inclined to do the above ... except I'll break down the 11/8 and notating it as (3+3+3+2)/8.

The first quarter rest would then be notated as a dotted-quarter rest.
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#2131681 - 08/12/13 10:59 AM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Nikolas]
Michael Sayers Offline
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Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1146
Loc: Stockholms län, Sverige
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
The level of details that you ask from your notation sometimes is too much... Are you really playing this very bar to last 3/4 and 0.666/4? If you actually are, just leave it at that. If you feel that in the heat of the battle you can add 0.33/4 then just make the whole gesture 3 beats (plus an extra one the rest) and you're done.

In any case you're already making these notes into tuplets...


Ni Nikolas,

The 3.6 = 3.66666666 (an infinitely repeating six after the decimal) which is the only decimal way to have 3 and 2/3 beats - Finale doesn't seem to allow the fractional ratio.

I'll give it all more thought, definitely though the duration in constant beats with the preceding music would be 3 2/3.

I've seen modern music scores with fractions of a beat in a bar and not rounded up or down to the nearest whole beat, the difference here is that the content is not otherwise modernistic.


M.

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#2131706 - 08/12/13 11:30 AM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Kreisler]
Michael Sayers Offline
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Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1146
Loc: Stockholms län, Sverige
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
The standard time signature for what you want is 11/8.

Use beaming to show the beats. If you want to show where the gesture is, that's what phrase marks are for.


Thanks Kreisler!

I thought about this, this is one of the types of solution suggested elsewhere one the internet.

In my belief for romantic type music gesture is as important as anything else, hence the connected beaming and abbreviated (2/3) of a pulse/beat at the end and with the beat still residing in quarter note durations as with the bars before and after.

Where extreme ruggedness of expression is wanted I try to avoid legato phrasing because it probably would elicit the opposite expression from a performer . . .


M.

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#2131740 - 08/12/13 12:12 PM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13797
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: Michael Sayers
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
The standard time signature for what you want is 11/8.

Use beaming to show the beats. If you want to show where the gesture is, that's what phrase marks are for.


Thanks Kreisler!

I thought about this, this is one of the types of solution suggested elsewhere one the internet.

In my belief for romantic type music gesture is as important as anything else, hence the connected beaming and abbreviated (2/3) of a pulse/beat at the end and with the beat still residing in quarter note durations as with the bars before and after.

Where extreme ruggedness of expression is wanted I try to avoid legato phrasing because it probably would elicit the opposite expression from a performer . . .


M.


I think you should trust performers more. The good ones will understand what you want, and the bad ones won't be able to execute it no matter how you notate it.

Bartok's Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion is a good example. He writes 9/8 for much of the first movement, but the feel alternates between three triplet beats in a bar to 4.5/4 (2+2+2+3) at the Meno Mosso sections. It's clear because of the way he beams things (as I mentioned before, beams indicate rhythmic groupings, not phrasing.) When you want something phrased, you write a big phrase mark over it.

Also, keep in mind that engraving also includes words - ritardando, rallentando, piu/meno mosso, stringendo, etc... Don't rely solely on beams, time signatures, and rhythmic notation to communicate gestures, keep in mind there's an enormous wealth of text you can add to get your point across as well.
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#2131781 - 08/12/13 01:12 PM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Kreisler]
Nikolas Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Kreisler
The standard time signature for what you want is 11/8.

Use beaming to show the beats. If you want to show where the gesture is, that's what phrase marks are for.
Jason,

I'm not sure I get this... I keep counting the 32nds in there and I find them to be in total 32! Thus 4/4. And the extra quarter rest in the beginning it's either 10/8 or 5/4!

how did you come up with the 11/8 time signature?

Michael: What Kreisler says is what I've been saying to you all along: You need to place much more trust in the performers rather than try to notate absolutely everything as YOU perform it!


Edited by Nikolas (08/12/13 01:12 PM)
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#2131782 - 08/12/13 01:19 PM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Nikolas, the 32nds are not straight 32nds, 8 per beat. If you count how many are included under the bracket for beat 2, and then for beat 3, you will find 12 in each beat: these are 12-tuplets. Then at the end there are 8 of them, but they are meant to be 8 of a 12-tuplet, hence 2/3 of a beat.

To come up with 11/8:

Since only 2/3 of the last beat is wanted, consider notation that divides every beat into 3 parts, except just 2 parts for the last beat:
1st beat, 3 parts
2nd beat, 3 parts
3rd beat, 3 parts
4th beat, 2 parts

The subdivision of beats into 3 parts suggests compound meter. Normally 12/8, but the last beat is missing an eighth, hence 11/8.

To determine what note values to use, notice that on a normal 3 part beat you want 12 notes. That makes 4 notes for each part of the beat. Since each part is an eighth note, the four notes in it are 32nd notes. So this can be notated in 11/8 time using a dotted quarter rest at the beginning, and then 12+12+8 32nd notes. Beaming and sub-beaming can be used to show the beats and parts of a beat in a way which I think will be more intuitive for a musician to grasp than the current undifferentiated and fractional notation.

When I get back to my computer I'll put together an example score.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (08/12/13 01:28 PM)
Edit Reason: How to come up with 11/8
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#2131785 - 08/12/13 01:22 PM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13797
Loc: Iowa City, IA
The 32nds are actually in the context of triplet 8th notes. (Each beat that he has bracketed contains twelve 32nds, which equals six 16ths or three 8ths.) Notate it in 11/8, change the quarter rest to a dotted-quarter rest, and it all works out fine.
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#2132109 - 08/13/13 04:17 AM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Nikolas]
Michael Sayers Offline
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Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1146
Loc: Stockholms län, Sverige
Originally Posted By: Nikolas

Michael: What Kreisler says is what I've been saying to you all along: You need to place much more trust in the performers rather than try to notate absolutely everything as YOU perform it!


Kreisler and Nikolas, maybe what is being suggested is that there is a practical impediment to overly accurate notation for the purpose of having something definite on the page, perhaps it is in some way over notated as with Grainger's scores, but in a totally different way? Hardly anyone performs his music and I think that the notation probably has something to do with this.

Most pianists I know are quite on the literal side - "but in the score the tempo does not change!", "those octave doublings are not in the score!", "you can't add beats or remove beats from a bar!", et c., is the sort of thing I have heard much. So the idea is with most things to give a performer a carefully determined set of absolutes and definites for the music, and you are right, it is one of my interpretations imposed on the notation (and I would play it differently everytime, so it is really an exact "performance" that is notated!).

The 3 2/3 over 4 time signature for bar 43 might make more sense in the context of the surrounding bars, with the 32nd notes in the 4/4 bar just before having equal duration per beat, which is later followed by intensification in bars 44 and 45 leading into the affrettando:

(and you are right Nikolas about the 128th notes; maybe to include an ossia for bar 45 would be an effective compromise?)










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#2132122 - 08/13/13 05:00 AM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers]
Nikolas Online   content
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Michael,

First of all, you are NOT giving us ANY recording from these bars in order to actually tell what the heck is going on. Right now bar 42 looks sane enough, but onwards from 43 it's a big mess!

My guess (and correct me anyone if I'm wrong) is that any pianist will look at it and won't be counting 128ths, but given the impression of these bars (42-45) they will accel. more and more pretty much...

Bar 45 is a cadenza of sorts, so it hardly needs any real time signature or timing. Bar 44 (the intro to that) is cut short for a little bit.

In all honesty these gestures remind me of Rachmaninov and in any case of rather romantic music. The same goes with your harmonic language. So this level of detail with a 3.6666/4 time signature is totally over the top.

If you're trying to notate improvisations, perhaps you should rework them to make "more sense". Is there an actual reason for bar 44 to be cut short, but such a short bit? A musical reason? A mathematical reason? Or it just ended up like that?

To everyone: a little explanation is needed here. with Michael we worked a tiny bit on his Fantasy March (he mentioned it in a thread, this one or another). In that work he had signs that were like "R" and "Rp" above chords. Which mean Rit. and Rit. poco on a single chord. So, my impression was that he's trying to dictate in a very exact manner what the performance will be like. Thus my comments in this thread.

Bar 44, and the one before and the one after is a big gesture, cadenza like. One that shouldn't have overly specific time signatures and the such...

If it was some highly complicated aleatoric, or serial music, then I'd argue in favour of the different time signatures (heck I change time signatures ever couple of bars in some of my own works), but in this case it seems unnecessary.
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#2132164 - 08/13/13 08:11 AM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Nikolas]
Michael Sayers Offline
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Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1146
Loc: Stockholms län, Sverige
Hi Nikolas,

Thanks for the response I will give this all more thought generally.

The observation about the 3.6 over 4 time signature not being used in romantic style music, might that be an argument from tradition that as others have done so we must do today? wink

Except for the modernistic Homage to Debussy suite there is minimum conscious decision making unless it is something such as how to combine one composition with another - as with the Södermalm Fantasy Ballade with the "R" and "R-p" (and even "R-pp"), a short sketch book composition became incorporated into it. The reliance is to with a totally silent mind hear the music in one's head (or "improvise" the composition on that basis with a piano) and let the unrestricted continuation emerge, trusting that any apparent disorder is or will be counterbalanced elsewhere in the music - and if apparent disorder or novelty remains then this is okay.

I guess the goal through the notation is to represent the sound in the way that is simplest and easiest to read but with minimal loss of music content.

Probably I am not the best musician for this especially as there was little composing before October 2012 and none at all 2009-2012, et c.!

As you know it is something that is happening from without, and with sudden abruptness beginning in October of last year . . . seemingly not only as coincidence initiated on the date of Liszt's birthday . . .


M.

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#2132176 - 08/13/13 09:07 AM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13797
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Seeing the passage in context, I think it's very clear what's going on in the music, and I stand by my original suggestion. It's in 11/8, and you need to add the marking that quarter = dotted quarter.
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#2132506 - 08/13/13 09:18 PM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers]
ScottM Offline
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Registered: 06/11/05
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Nikolas and the others are kind to spend so much time trying to understand the music. I totally agree with Nikolas that 4 staves are too much. I also agree that 3.6/4 time is really over the top and in my opinion will turn a lot of performers off right there.

I also believe the octave runs alternating hands (unless it is slow) is going to be almost impossible because one hand will easily run into the other while trying to get to the next note. Many pianists are able to make fast octave runs in one hand (even chromatically). So would it not work to give a good portion of the ascending 64th notes to the left hand and then at some convenient point let the right hand take over?

As an alternative, I would suggest simplifying the runs and keep it one octave apart with the left hand playing the lower note in the octave and the right hand the upper note. This is a very common figuration. Or you could have the hands 2 octaves apart. Is there an artistic purpose here - or is it just to make it very difficult to play so the pianists will be impressed at how difficult it is? That's a legitimate question.
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#2132552 - 08/13/13 11:15 PM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13797
Loc: Iowa City, IA
No...the octave technique Michael has written is a reasonably well-known virtuosic device. There are examples of the same technique in Liszt's and Saint-Saens' music.

(And it is tricky, but not so bad once you get used to it.)
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#2132800 - 08/14/13 12:44 PM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: ScottM]
Michael Sayers Offline
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Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1146
Loc: Stockholms län, Sverige
Thanks Scott, before writing out the measure with 3 2/3 beats I realized that it had less than four beats, we'll see if I leave it as over 4 or change it to over 8 - the latter seems to make sense for something I am not sure is happening here which is a totally new change of pulse as in a 3/4 section followed by a 6/8 section and then back to the 3/4.

You are right, where the Fantasy March music ends up in bar 45 seems meant to wow an audience, and you have good ideas for an ossia, I think the risk is more with sound than technique - bar 45 might just sound like an alternating octave exercise being played ultra-fast. Just as, with the broken octaves in the Liszt B Minor Ballade, oftentimes these are played to sound more like a Lisztian boogie-woogie than as something rugged and majestic.

I tend to forget that I did compose a lot in the past as a child, all of that music is stored in the U.S. and I haven't seen it in years! Most of that music does not involve a piano, hence the habit to think in terms of multiple staves to distribute the music rather than overload one staff with too many tones sounding at once - definitely it isn't necessary in 99% of instances to have three or four staves, and I'm not sure if two staves are suggested for reasons of economy (less paper and space) or if it is thought easier on the eye to have all compressed into two.

Probably I'll make many mistakes in all of this!

M.

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#2132899 - 08/14/13 05:58 PM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers]
Derulux Offline
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Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
I think I'm missing something here conceptually...

Since the only significant thing going on in that measure is the 32nd note octave run, why not make it a 5/4 measure? It's got the right number of notes, and since it's most-likely a fast octave run, it's not going to change how it's played; only how it's conceptualized. (In other words, you'll be hard-pressed to hear the beats in the middle of that kind of run, especially as the run gets faster and faster.)

With 3.6666.../4, the last beat is cut short. But with 5/4, the octave swell and ebb is carried out for a "full" five beats in transition to the next measure.


Besides, you don't even have "true" 4/4 in the first measure. Visually, and I'm sure conceptually, it's 4/4. But counting out the beats, it's really 6/4.


EDIT: One last idea with octave runs like that. You may find it easier to write it all on one staff, without the rests, and without the 128th note notation (use 8th/grace/cadenza notes). I prefer to read it that way, though I know it's often written the way you have it. I just find it easier to find the change of direction, and leaps, when they're closer together and with much less black.


Edited by Derulux (08/14/13 06:01 PM)
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#2132906 - 08/14/13 06:09 PM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers]
Nikolas Online   content
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Derulux: That's what I said. Make them regular 32nds (8 per beat, and not 12) and thus the whole bar into a 5/4! wink
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#2132962 - 08/14/13 08:36 PM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Nikolas]
Derulux Offline
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Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Derulux: That's what I said. Make them regular 32nds (8 per beat, and not 12) and thus the whole bar into a 5/4! wink

Ah, bugger! I completely missed the first page. (Thought the image on the 2nd page was the first post, and didn't look at what page I was actually on.) Sorry to repeat what was already said..

Also, I think Kreisler has a solid point for 11/8, given the 12-note 32nd note runs, rather than 8-note. But I still stand by what I said, that, at a faster speed, it will be impossible to separate the octave run into duple/triple time to hear those minor beats, and that the audience will likely only hear a swell-and-ebb from the bottom to the top, and back to the bottom. All the more reason to simplify the time signature.

I do understand, conceptually, why 3.666.../4 might be preferred, because in the later 4/4 time, you have triplets, but I think for the sake of readability/accessibility, it may be easier/simpler for the performer to read in a simpler time signature. I would much prefer 11/8 to 3.666.../4, but I would prefer even more to see it in 5/4, given that what comes later is in 4/4 and not in 12/8.


Might I ask what is the tempo of this piece? q = 80 max? Guessing 60-66 because it's a little more playable.. unless you took the octaves on the half-beat, so the top of the run hit on the off-beat between chords. Then, I could see a slightly faster tempo, but probably not too much faster.. maybe up to 92? But, I mean, that's really pushing the tempo to virtually unplayable..
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#2133149 - 08/15/13 04:23 AM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Derulux]
Michael Sayers Offline
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Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1146
Loc: Stockholms län, Sverige
Originally Posted By: Derulux

Might I ask what is the tempo of this piece? q = 80 max? Guessing 60-66 because it's a little more playable.. unless you took the octaves on the half-beat, so the top of the run hit on the off-beat between chords. Then, I could see a slightly faster tempo, but probably not too much faster.. maybe up to 92? But, I mean, that's really pushing the tempo to virtually unplayable..


The tempo would be up to the performer (how many pianists can do bar 45 at qurter note = 92?).

The first page is marked quarter note = 46.5 - I realize that may be on the slow side, hence it isn't marked "Tempo di marcia", but all interpretation of music is up to the performer including the tempo!

Your are right, and a half-beat rest in constant terms is closer to what I would do (not a full one beat rest, and some some slight pause before beat one of the next bar for marcato emphasis), maybe this interpretative approach with beats themselves shorter or longer is not something that would be ideal to notate?

And with bar 45, maybe that would go straight into bar 46 with minimum delay?

M.

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#2133237 - 08/15/13 09:21 AM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13797
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Quarter note = 46.5??????

Why? No metronome on the planet is that specific.
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#2133310 - 08/15/13 11:38 AM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers]
Derulux Offline
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Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
I think the desire for specificity is actually detracting from the ability to correctly interpret what's on the page. It gets to a point where the pianist must actually disregard what's on the page in order to play it.

(For example - disregarding the quarter note rest in order to play the swell starting on the half beat, which you said you would also do. Consequently, it's what I heard, but I tried to conceptualize it both ways, since you did write a quarter rest.)

No pianist on Earth will specifically play q = 46.5. Won't happen. Ever. Might I ask why you're trying to be so specific with it?


In regard to measure 45 -- I would honestly expect the performer to completely disregard tempo in that measure and play it more like a cadenza. The pattern in the measure has "more than 4 beats". So, it really won't matter what the tempo is. wink


EDIT: I think much of what I'm trying to say is that it sounds like you're trying to make it as difficult as possible for the sake of making it as difficult as possible. The notes themselves are already a challenge at up-tempos. Why are you (seemingly intentionally) making it so hard to find the beat?


Edited by Derulux (08/15/13 11:41 AM)
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#2133332 - 08/15/13 12:10 PM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers]
Nikolas Online   content
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Registered: 11/26/07
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And here's where we're slowly coming to my comments: Michael is trying to ultra control the performance of the score, and as such he's putting various details like the q = 46.5, or the 3.666/4 bars, or the R, and R-p above single notes.
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#2133369 - 08/15/13 01:10 PM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Michael Sayers]
synergy543 Offline
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Registered: 05/28/11
Posts: 110
I'm saving this thread as it epitomizes the ailment with so much modern music, why classical music is in decline, and why audiences are no longer interested.

Instead of discussing tempos with fractions, and beat divisions with remainders (which the composer reminds us goes on infinitely), maybe instead its time we ask ourselves what composing music is all about anyway? Is is about "anal"yzing notation amongst ourselves? Or is it about communicating and connecting with performers and ultimately with an audience? Well, this is certainly a topic for another thread, though perfectly primed by this one.

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#2133390 - 08/15/13 01:58 PM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: synergy543]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5300
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: synergy543
I'm saving this thread as it epitomizes the ailment with so much modern music, why classical music is in decline, and why audiences are no longer interested.

Instead of discussing tempos with fractions, and beat divisions with remainders (which the composer reminds us goes on infinitely), maybe instead its time we ask ourselves what composing music is all about anyway? Is is about "anal"yzing notation amongst ourselves? Or is it about communicating and connecting with performers and ultimately with an audience? Well, this is certainly a topic for another thread, though perfectly primed by this one.
I think that there is a place for complicated music, and even more complicated notation.

Unfortunately Michaels' music is NOT suited for such tricks.
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#2133472 - 08/15/13 04:59 PM Re: 3 2/3 over 4 time signature [Re: Nikolas]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: synergy543
I'm saving this thread as it epitomizes the ailment with so much modern music, why classical music is in decline, and why audiences are no longer interested.

Instead of discussing tempos with fractions, and beat divisions with remainders (which the composer reminds us goes on infinitely), maybe instead its time we ask ourselves what composing music is all about anyway? Is is about "anal"yzing notation amongst ourselves? Or is it about communicating and connecting with performers and ultimately with an audience? Well, this is certainly a topic for another thread, though perfectly primed by this one.
I think that there is a place for complicated music, and even more complicated notation.

Unfortunately Michaels' music is NOT suited for such tricks.

Exactly.. if you're trying to land a man on the moon, you'll need all the complex equipment the space shuttle has to offer. However, if you're trying to put a nail into a board, you don't need anything more than a hammer.
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