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#2129261 - 08/07/13 02:26 AM Re: front key bushings regulation [Re: Bill McKaig,RPT]
pierrot Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/20/07
Posts: 19
Loc: japan
yes, i played a new c3 several years ago and keys felt pleasingly tight(no heavy feel).
i had that feel in my mind when i dicided to rebush keys.
_________________________
pardon me for asking......too much?

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#2129298 - 08/07/13 06:14 AM Re: front key bushings regulation [Re: phacke]
Maximillyan Online   embarrased
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: phacke
My vague recollection Reblitz says to swell the wood if there is too much play and not turn the metal front pins because that causes excess localized wear on the felt/cloth bushings, but I think most techs turn the metal pins.
Regards-

I can only express subjective feelings of some professional pianists, who believe that a keys of any grand piano " to drive worse (tight) in the winter time" on the territory of the former USSR. It may be cause dry winter air which reduces the bush hole and we find in a fall of a friction here. A cloth as close to the pin. For a professional pianist is better when it is a key tighter
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A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2129299 - 08/07/13 06:19 AM Re: front key bushings regulation [Re: pierrot]
Ed Foote Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 970
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: pierrot
yes, i played a new c3 several years ago and keys felt pleasingly tight(no heavy feel).
i had that feel in my mind when i dicided to rebush keys.


Greetings,
That is a readily available standard, and if you just had someone rebush your keys, they should feel like that. When reasons start piling up for it not, (a store in Japan does it this way), and trying to explain why some are looser on the ends, I think you should ask the job be done over, to Yamaha specifications. It is a simple matter to do this with the right cauls and cloth.
Regards,

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#2129300 - 08/07/13 06:28 AM Re: front key bushings regulation [Re: pierrot]
Ed Foote Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 970
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: pierrot
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Greetings,

Inre tight tolerances creating friction, I think that once there is no compression of the felt by the pins, there is nothing to be gained by further slack. There is no need for there to be any clearance, but it is difficult for us to insure the necessary freedom for repetition without some perceptible movement. Front pins are not always straight, and binding can occur if the bushings are too deep, etc., so we have to have some freedom. It should not be visible, but it should be felt when taking a key and moving it side to side. By the time you can see the key move from a playing position, you have significant wear. Most felt will compact an additional five or six thousandths in the first 10 hours of playing, also, so a new key job needn't start out with any more than the least possible movement.
There are also reasons for resilient, close bushings that have to do with key behavior under staccato playing, (loose keys can bounce uncontrollably at higher speeds).


I used to believe the same thing you expressed about if the felt isn't pinching the keypin then it should be OK. It's not. There IS measurable friction with the kind of setup you describe with sideplay 'feelable' but not visible. A bit more side play that is also visible will reduce friction. It may or may not matter much in a given action setup.

mmmmmm, i would love to listen to further discussion two of you would have about this...


Greetings,
My point is that after the bushing felt is no longer in contact with the pins, there is nothing to be gained by adding looseness. Inre the friction being there unless one can see the key move, my action balancing doesn't support that. I can feel movement in a key that exhibits no more friction in my BW measurements than one that I can see move. Some brands require more clearance, simply because of the number of front pins that had to be bent to space the keys, but Yamaha isn't one of those. ( I have installed two new sets of Yamaha keys and neither of them required more than one or two pins to be slightly moved to space).

When setting up a piano for heavy use, I don't want any more looseness than I have to. Caul size and glue viscosity are also important for the durability of these sets, too. I use overly thick cloth and VS-Profelt to size them to the pin. This is the only procedure that gives anywhere near acceptable longevity in the practice rooms. The older key bushing cloth was far more durable than what is being sold today, and the bushing jobs simply don't last anywhere near as long.
Regards,

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#2129308 - 08/07/13 07:20 AM Re: front key bushings regulation [Re: pierrot]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1795
Loc: Suffolk, England
Even if it's slightly OT, I'd like to ask a supplementary question about replacing the whippen cushion felt above the capstan.

Is advisable to replace it at the same time as rebushing the key, if not already done?

I recall Isaac saying this can do wonders for the touch.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2129315 - 08/07/13 08:13 AM Re: front key bushings regulation [Re: pierrot]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6333
Loc: France
when an action have played a lot there is some coherence in wear.

Correcting the keys is the most advantageous way to make a better touch, but the wear and looseness of the rest of the action is yet perceived.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2131497 - 08/12/13 01:14 AM Re: front key bushings regulation [Re: Olek]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 385
Loc: CO, USA
Originally Posted By: Olek
]

If you keys have "pulley" (front to back) this is enough to loose some of the benefit of new bushing cloths.

Can be closed somewhat by moistening the wood with 70% alcohol.



Hello Mr. Oleg, I was interested about this for the purpose of reducing side-to-side motion, as described in the original post question.

- Is the alcohol to better carry 30% water deeper into wood?
- Exactly where and how would you be applying this fluid.
- In what doses(volumes) would you apply it before trying its effect (as to not over tighten the wood around the pin)?; how do you get it just right?
- Is there any danger of this fluid interacting with the bonding of the existing bushing/felt to weaken its adhesion?

Best regards-

PS. No one has confessed or supported turning pins. Here is a direct quote from a tech who has worked on my piano in the past; excerpt from an email of his to me:
"The side to side play can also be eliminated by a technician by easily swelling the key bushing, or turning the oblong key pin in the front of the key. This is also something that should only take a few moments for a technician to take care of. " ... and... "As far as the side to side motion goes, you WANT side to side motion."




Edited by phacke (08/12/13 01:15 AM)
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

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#2131512 - 08/12/13 01:59 AM Re: front key bushings regulation [Re: phacke]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6333
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: phacke
Originally Posted By: Olek
]

If you keys have "pulley" (front to back) this is enough to loose some of the benefit of new bushing cloths.

Can be closed somewhat by moistening the wood with 70% alcohol.



Hello Mr. Oleg, I was interested about this for the purpose of reducing side-to-side motion, as described in the original post question.

- Is the alcohol to better carry 30% water deeper into wood?
- Exactly where and how would you be applying this fluid.
- In what doses(volumes) would you apply it before trying its effect (as to not over tighten the wood around the pin)?; how do you get it just right?
- Is there any danger of this fluid interacting with the bonding of the existing bushing/felt to weaken its adhesion?

Best regards-

PS. No one has confessed or supported turning pins. Here is a direct quote from a tech who has worked on my piano in the past; excerpt from an email of his to me:
"The side to side play can also be eliminated by a technician by easily swelling the key bushing, or turning the oblong key pin in the front of the key. This is also something that should only take a few moments for a technician to take care of. " ... and... "As far as the side to side motion goes, you WANT side to side motion."




I would not use alcohol as it can be used to unglue the bushings, and it also shrink the cloth.

turning the pins is used as a fine tuning of the play, eventually, only when the side play is basically good and even and discrepancies are noticed.

As a temporary measure too before re bushing, but it may never allow the cloth touch the edge of the pin, so the range of correction is limited.

What I never do now is to bend the balance pins to correct slanted keys (due to bushing wear). It simply add too much work to be undone later, and I do not like tapping too much the balance pins, with time they can loose their firmness in the wood, better leave them alone, they have been bend when the keyboard was installed, only with light key warping I bend the balance pin).

The moistening of the hole close the wood that can be uncompressed. the results are more or less long term depending of what other work is done and the condition of the wood.

Traditional repair for pulley is to shave a shim with a small V shaped wood chisel, and make a similar cut at the back of the hole. Glue that "boat shape" and adjust the hole .

I have buy a specific tool that allow to cut a round aperture where a new round key shoe is glued. Works fine with 90° holes, way less when the hole is inclined. the quality of the shoe is also to be tested.
I prefer the boat shape.




Edited by Olek (08/12/13 02:01 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2132081 - 08/13/13 12:38 AM Re: front key bushings regulation [Re: Olek]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 385
Loc: CO, USA
Thank you for your instructional comments, Mr. Oleg.

Best regards-
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

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#2132124 - 08/13/13 05:05 AM Re: front key bushings regulation [Re: pierrot]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6333
Loc: France
you can tap the wood (not too strong) to close the mortise a hair.

not all wood, easy with pine, much less with harder woods.

New pins are luxury on any keyboard, particularely the balance pins. changing them if the plating is lost give really smoothness and eveness.

And the new ones may be a hair stronger (I doubt it is voluntarily but it happens than the pins I buy have <1 tenths of mm more than the original) , which helps with the balance hole (not with the mortise if you did not think about previously).

reproducing the "L shape" of the bushing cloth in the capsule is also important when changing the cloth. make a firmer hold, a precise dimension and less friction. - one hour more than without the recess, but many do not reproduce the original design)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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