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I need advice on tuning Kawai pianos. I have been tuning pianos for several years now but always seem to have problem getting the Kawai pianos stay in tune for more than a week. The pitch tends to drift lower over a couple of days and I have tried hard not to push the pin hard and bend the pin too much when settling them but to no avail. Right after the tuning, the pianos would sound great but my clients will call me after a couple of weeks and complain about their pianos being out of tune. I hate not able to serve my clients well with their pianos and I am a pianist myself so I understand how frustrating it can be to play on an out of tune piano, even when it is slightly where you can hear the unison not being in tune with each other.

I have a client who had a tuner who has been in this business for at least 40 years and had no problem tuning her Kawai piano. I don't know what the key is to stable tuning.

Any ideas or suggestion is desperately needed!

Thanks so much!

I do. Practice

It is not the piano, it is your work. It sounds like are not able to achieve a stable tuning with your technique. You are finding out that there is a lot more to piano tuning than turning a few pins until it sounds good to your ear or a tuning device. A Kawai is not harder to tune than a Yamaha or most other pianos.

Seriously, it does not sound like you should be tuning pianos for "clients".

How many pianos have you tuned? It can take anywhere from a hundred tunings (for a gifted student, with a good mentor) to one thousand tunings of experience to tune a piano decently.
A tuning that holds only for a couple of weeks on a home piano is not a tuning.

I would recommend to take some tuning lessons from an experienced technician.

HI Jurgen,

Thanks for your comment. I have no problem tuning other brands of pianos. I have tuned around 1000 various brand of pianos. Many of my clients are music teacher, musicians and concert pianists. I seldom get negative feedback from my clients, except when I start tuning the Kawai pianos. A lot of my clients are repeat clients.

That's why I am baffled as to why I have such a hard time getting the Kawai pianos in tune.

When you approach the target pitch, assuming the pitch is flat, are you moving the pin (not the apparent pitch, but the pin) sharp and then lowering the pin foot in an attempt to hit the target pitch? To be clear, I'm speaking specifically of the pin here and not the apparent speaking length pitch which, if pulling, will almost always overshoot the target.

Can you differentiate between movement of the pin foot and movement of the wire?

Jim Ialeggio

Interesting. To me, Kawai is one of the easiest to tune. If I were you, I'd keep track of the relative humidity when you service pianos. This will help determine if it's something in your technique or if it's something else.

Hi Teklover: I am rather curious as to what you mean by "bend the pin"?

Jim,

I always try to move the pin when I bring it sharp before attempting to settle the pin. I thought perhaps it had to do with my bending the pin too much when I settled the pin because the pitch would drift flat over time. So, I tried the new way of only giving the pin a very slight nudge to settle the pin but then the pin would drift sharp after a while. I have tried pounding hard on the key to equalize the string tension but that did not help either. I think I am missing something here. I talked to two reputable and experienced technicians about it and they seemed to run into similar problem of settling the pins on the Kawai pianos but their problem is not as worse as mine.

Beethoven, I think if the tuner who has 40 years experience could get the piano in tuned, then I am pretty sure it's not a problem caused by humidity fluctuations.

bkw,

I didn't mean I intentionally bend the pin when I settle the pin but I might have accidentally done just that where I nudge on the pin to settle it.

I'm, sorry, but if an experienced technician kept the piano in good tune, and you, following him, cannot, it is not the piano. It's your technique.
Yes, that is what I am trying to say... You need someone to physically show you. A mentor.

Thanks, Teklover. For example, on an upright, when you "nudge the pin to settle it," in which direction are you moving or applying pressure on the tuning hammer? Toward you? Counterclockwise? Elsewhere?

bkw, I would be applying pressure on the hammer counterclockwise(away from me).

Thanks, Teklover. I agree with my colleagues that Kawai is a joy to tune. Typically Kawai holds a tune quite well. I think that Jurgen's suggestion is wise. Contact a tech with a good track record so he/she can actually see what you are doing. If there is no one in your area willing to do this, then there is always an evaluation/lessons via Skype.

bkw, thanks for suggestion. After reading Jurgen's comment and pondering on it, I think you are right. I will need someone to show me how exactly it is done on Kawai.
I did not know that you can get tuning lessons via Skype??

Yep. There might even be one or two of these instructors in the building.

Tuning is an ever diminishing series of turning the pin sharp and flat of pitch to feel the pin torque. Once you've determined that you have zeroed in on the pitch in regards to pin twist, the last motion is to nudge the pin in the sharp direction to set the string.

If you come down to pitch and leave it, the string segment between the tuning pin and counter bearing will be of lower tension than the speaking length. This is due to the friction at the bearing points and a firm blow will cause the friction to release and equalize tension, the pitch of the speaking length goes flat.

However, if your last movement is to ever-slightly pull up to pitch, that front string segment is slightly higher in tension than the speaking length and that friction will not release on a heavy blow. A solid tuning. This fine tuning is not moving the pin in the block but finessing the torsion of the pin.

For many Aeolian grands such as M&H and Chickering that have the high degree angle of counter bearing; you have to pull it to pitch and leave it. There is no finessing the pin torque due to the ultra high friction caused by the extreme angle. One has to lower the tension in the front section so much for the high friction to release that the pitch drops dramatically. That's why you have to 'set it and forget it'.

Another problem is with tight pins for setting a solid tuning. That is when the friction grip on the pin in the block exceeds the torque required to turn the pin, springy pins. When the sliding friction in the block does not exceed the torsion factor, all goes well.

I've had to change pitch as much as 20c before the pin would turn in the block.
Baldwins were that way as are some Estonias. These are a challenge to tune until they go thru enough seasons for the blocks to release some of their grip.

I more or less agree with your first phrase, but the goal (for me) must be to attain the final location of the pin in one move (if possible,) and avoid any further motion of the pin to lower the pitch. This is the strongest and the most long lasting setting.

The more you "sand" the pinblock moving the bottom of the pin up and down, the less good the final setting, seems evident to me. If difficult I prefer to raise in 2 too small moves than go too high and turn back.

The thing is that some Kawai do not send back as much tactile information as many pianos, as if the pinblock was lubed or the pin steel very soft (plus hold firmly by the bushing).

Something a tuner need to perceive is the amount of tension that is in the upper segment of wire, and that have nothing to do (or very little) with listening, and much to do with physical sensitivity, plus a decoding of the different motions within pin, upper segment, rendering point.

The more back and forth motion you apply, the less precise you finish in regard of the upper segment (and in the end it takes more time than pointing the good location immediately, with just refinements done at the pin level in the end)


A very good and very firm pin setting hopefully allow for some leeway and then pins work is allowed.

Raising the tension in the wire too slowly and progressively gives the utmost control on friction points. The added stress in the front segment is "read" by the ear as pitch change/ vs torque.slow motion give a very precise "reading in the body and mind.

THat is the playing hand that moves the string, not the lever (exagerated)

Due to Florida humidity and the resultant tight blocks, we have pins flexing 60 cents before they turn in the block, then when they finally turn, they snap 10-15 cents.

Ultraflex Pins.

These pianos are still tunable, but take a lot more work and sometimes more time to make sure pins are set. You probably don't have enough experience at 1000 pianos tuned to set these types of "Ultraflex" pins with consistency. I've found that flexing the pin backwards or forwards when turning it helps the pin turn in smaller increments. The issue for us in humid Florida, is we don't get "seasons" that loosen pins to a comfortable level, so it can take many tunings over many years for pins to settle down.

Not all pianos are easy to tune, and the makers are not going to change the feel of tuning pins or string rendering because techs complain. You will have to learn to set difficult pins even if it takes you 3 hours at first to tune them.

Even on decent grip the raise can be 50cts if you go slowly.

This allow to store much added stress, that will be used at the end to regulate the higher torque of the front segment.

Indeed too much will make the string go sharp so experience is necessary.

With that higher pitch the wire is more elastic and more reactive, the friction points lessen.

This is why I asked about feeling the differentiation between pin movement and string movement.

Your description is pretty good, and it sounds like the pin foot has been raised beyond the target pitch. Then you are trying to move the pin foot counterclock-wise to "settle".

I have found the "settle" concept confusing because if you "settle" the wrong thing you you've got the problem you describe. Ideally, the pin foot goes to the "correct" position in the block and does not need "settling". The front segment of the string (the tuning pin segment) and all the felt bearing do need settling...but this is not done by moving the pin foot as it sounds like you are doing. It is done by flexing the upper part of the pin, or other "settling" techniques...test blows, etc.

My stability took a quantum leap when I realized that if the pin (again differentiating between the pin and the wire,)that is the bottom of the pin, the part in the block, not the upper part of the pin, but the bottom of the pin, moved only up to pitch and not not beyond, the I could achieve excellent stability, even on tight pin poorly rendering pianos. When doing this, depending on tightness of the block and the relative resistance to rendering, the pin foot may move up to where you intuit it wants to be, but the apparent pitch of the wire will often go well sharp of target, becasue the upper part of the pin flexes considerably before the pin foot turns. As Jon says, the apparent pitch may go a good 20c sharp, but you basically have to ignore that and feel when the pin foot moves and how much.

After I've got the pin foot where I think it is right, most of the time the apparent pitch will be off-target. That is because the upper part of the pin has flexed way more than the bottom part of the pin...creating the false impression that you've moved the pin foot too far. So, once the pin foot is where I think I intuitied it to be right, I flex the pin...yes, flex the pin gently back and forth, to ease the front segment into equilibrium. In addition I help the rendering and pin movement by keeping the whole string in constant vibrating movement by repeatedly, 2x/second striking the key musically at mf. Often, on a grand I will open the notes' damper and keep it up with the sostenuto to keep that string vibrating while I mess with the pin and segments. I don't do strong test blows, because when I tune, I am playing the piano musically...but whatever works you in the settling is the way to go.

If I move the pin foot too far sharp, and get lazy, trying to nudge the foot down, the pitch will go south, and maybe not immediately...as you report. This I think is mainly because when turning the pin in the same direction the string tension is torquing the pin, it is hard, at least for me, to have the minute control I need to go south. Sometimes I use a ratchet movement to tweak the pin foot flat just a tad, or flex and wiggle the pin to get that movement, but often, I find it quicker and safer to just start over and come up to pitch with the pin foot.

But the bottom line is, make sure when you say you are moving the pin that you are moving the pin and not just the apparent pitch...these are 2 very different things.

Jim Ialeggio

A cheap tuning lever can be a huge disadvantage also. Make sure what you're using gives you precise feedback from the tuning pin.

I use a Fujan lever on grand pianos and a Cyberhammer on verticals. I find the impact method to be very stable. Bump it where it needs to be; done.