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Joined: Aug 2003
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Hi Everyone, Maybe there is consensus that here multiple staves are appropriate, as with the whole notes tied between bars 18 and 19? ![[Linked Image]](http://michaelsayers.com/tmp/etude_homage_to_liszt_18_19_wd700.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://michaelsayers.com/tmp/etude_homage_to_liszt_20_21_wd700.jpg) I'm curious about this ... for mm.20-21, I "get" that you can squeeze them into two staves and the layout would still look OK (and unless you'er writing for more than two hands, the use of pedal to sustain the whole-note chords is a given). For mm.18-19, while one can squeeze the three staves into two, I wonder how you would make the layout look good with the ties for the whole-note chord cutting across the beams and stems of the 16th-note arpeggiated figures in m.18? (Also, the "8va" may also have to go away so as not to impact the whole-note chord; so the need more ledger lines to notate the the first F# in m.19; but I do not see this as a big deal.) Can you "cheat" with drawing only one tie (instead of four) just for the top note, and then put in text to tell the pianist you really mean for the tie to apply to the whole F# chord, not jus the top note? (Again, if this is meant for two hands, then there is no way for the pianist to play the F# chord "again" in m.19 anyway ... so we're really just talking about which convention to break -- the one that says "two staves are better than three," or the one that says "tie every note, not just one of them" if you mean to hold and sustain the F# chord across mm.18-19.) For mm. 20-21, the tradeoff with collapsing the bottom two staves is adding lots of ledger lines to notate the whole note chords (not a big deal), and the tradeoff with collapsing the top two staves is adding a clef change before the 2nd beat of m.20 (also not a big deal). As for context, I am also curious about how you would prefer the pianist pedal this four measures, and how fast you'd prefer to have this passage played?
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
5000 Post Club Member
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5000 Post Club Member
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...maybe it actually is healthy to be head-butted from time to time in which case I should be thankful? Absolutely! Anyone you agree with 100% of the time is usually trying to sell you something, and almost always doesn't have your best interests in mind.  The Fantasy March is only 10 to 15 pages depending on spacing... Can I take a look at it sometime? I wouldn't be able to work on it for a while -- the first composition on my desk to finish is Steve Chandler's, once I fully recover from a wrist fracture (martial arts). But I'd still enjoy looking at the score. 
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
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Joined: Feb 2013
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OP
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Joined: Feb 2013
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Hi Everyone, Maybe there is consensus that here multiple staves are appropriate, as with the whole notes tied between bars 18 and 19? I'm curious about this ... for mm.20-21, I "get" that you can squeeze them into two staves and the layout would still look OK (and unless you'er writing for more than two hands, the use of pedal to sustain the whole-note chords is a given). For mm.18-19, while one can squeeze the three staves into two, I wonder how you would make the layout look good with the ties for the whole-note chord cutting across the beams and stems of the 16th-note arpeggiated figures in m.18? (Also, the "8va" may also have to go away so as not to impact the whole-note chord; so the need more ledger lines to notate the the first F# in m.19; but I do not see this as a big deal.) Can you "cheat" with drawing only one tie (instead of four) just for the top note, and then put in text to tell the pianist you really mean for the tie to apply to the whole F# chord, not jus the top note? (Again, if this is meant for two hands, then there is no way for the pianist to play the F# chord "again" in m.19 anyway ... so we're really just talking about which convention to break -- the one that says "two staves are better than three," or the one that says "tie every note, not just one of them" if you mean to hold and sustain the F# chord across mm.18-19.) For mm. 20-21, the tradeoff with collapsing the bottom two staves is adding lots of ledger lines to notate the whole note chords (not a big deal), and the tradeoff with collapsing the top two staves is adding a clef change before the 2nd beat of m.20 (also not a big deal). As for context, I am also curious about how you would prefer the pianist pedal this four measures, and how fast you'd prefer to have this passage played? Maybe the number of staves is a subjective preference with two as more economical and familiar? I think this is what Nikolas was saying - and Nikolas is a highly experienced, professional music editor with a Ph.D. in music composition. Liszt wrote some solo piano music on three and fours staves so there is a precedent, not that this makes it okay . . . I've never seen it so maybe the publishers always decided for a two staff presentation? I am told I over pedal, so maybe you would have the best idea for pedaling . . . same for tempo (I tend to be on the slower side of most things - slow and loud!). M.
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Joined: Nov 2007
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6000 Post Club Member
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Michael can you point me (us) to an example of Liszt using more than 2 staves? I'm not saying it's not true, but perhaps there are other reasons he ended up with more than 2 staves? In this case I stand my ground that more than 2 staves are not needed!
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,352
2000 Post Club Member
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OP
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Joined: Feb 2013
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The Fantasy March is only 10 to 15 pages depending on spacing... Can I take a look at it sometime? I wouldn't be able to work on it for a while -- the first composition on my desk to finish is Steve Chandler's, once I fully recover from a wrist fracture (martial arts). But I'd still enjoy looking at the score. Steve Chandler is one composer whose music I have thought to suggest as I think you would find some affinity with his music - maybe the Rhapsody is in progress . . . and I think Nikolas Sideris' music might be of interest if you are up to real modernism, probably he would not think I am the right pianist for it, but in my experience of the music I imagined a dramatic tonal and sonority landscape - on that basis I can not help but suggest it! And there is Joel Wagner, and others such as noble and deep thinking John Carollo who is not at pianoworld unless he is present incognito! I'll email the score. There are not any expectations attached - soon all will be online for anyone to access. M.
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Joined: Feb 2013
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2000 Post Club Member
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OP
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Michael can you point me (us) to an example of Liszt using more than 2 staves? I'm not saying it's not true, but perhaps there are other reasons he ended up with more than 2 staves? In this case I stand my ground that more than 2 staves are not needed! I fully support your view about more than two staves not being needed with these bars. The bit about Liszt is in Derek Watson's book, pg. 175: "Liszt's piano notation is always precise and designed to facilitate the desired interpretative effect . . . clarity and precision of effect also led him to notate on three, and occasionally, four staves." Of course the third concert etude (D-flat Major) has three staves starting with bar three and elsewhere but it is just one example and, as you say, it is for other reasons. What I wonder is where are Liszt's four staff solo piano bars? I can't at the moment think of any . . . not having access to them makes it a bit difficult to discuss them! M.
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Joined: Nov 2007
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Link to the 3rd concert etude: http://conquest.imslp.info/files/im..._4_19-21_Drei_Konzert_Etueden_filter.pdfpage 188 (26 on the PDF). In this case, the arpeggio moves around both clef in every single bar. It also is played with both hands, if I understand it correctly. If Liszt (the editor) was to use 2 staves, he'd have to change clefs in every bar, multiple times, and the distribution of hands would be very difficult to show (unless using brackets which is not wise). So there's no other way to do this, but only with the use of 3 staves... Sorry for derailing the thread in this way...
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Link to the 3rd concert etude: http://conquest.imslp.info/files/im..._4_19-21_Drei_Konzert_Etueden_filter.pdfpage 188 (26 on the PDF). In this case, the arpeggio moves around both clef in every single bar. It also is played with both hands, if I understand it correctly. If Liszt (the editor) was to use 2 staves, he'd have to change clefs in every bar, multiple times, and the distribution of hands would be very difficult to show (unless using brackets which is not wise). So there's no other way to do this, but only with the use of 3 staves... Sorry for derailing the thread in this way... I actually think it's partially written that way to indicate that one hand plays it. (If I were playing this, I would probably play it one handed. First two measures two-hands, but then the arpeggio can be all LH -- bar 3 fingering, 5215421 and reverse on the way down.) To me, as a pianist, this split is for ease of reading the RH. Once you see the pattern of the LH, you just need to know the chord, and then you don't even have to look at the notes. But the RH would be hidden amidst a flurry of arpeggio if they tried to put it on two staves. (If there is still a question, a couple of pages down, the RH plays broken octaves, which pretty much eliminates the RH ability to play the bottom arpeggios.) With Michael's score, I could see creating an 8vb or 8va staff as a reason to separate the staves, rather than indicating it in writing.
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
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