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#2134929 - 08/18/13 04:18 PM anyone use music moves for piano?
ten left thumbs Offline
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Anyone here use Music Moves for Piano by Marilyn Lowe? I ordered 1 each of the student books - and honestly I've never seen anything like it! help

I'd like to know more about the approach and how to use the ideas, practically, in the rather more conventional lessons I normally teach. Does anyone do this, and if so, how, or do you need to completely convert to the method?
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#2135842 - 08/20/13 09:20 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
ten left thumbs Offline
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OK, if no-one uses it I'll stop checking her for replies.
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#2135848 - 08/20/13 09:30 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
Morodiene Offline
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I didn't respond because I've never seen it or heard of it. Perhaps that's the case for everyone else too?

Since you ordered this, why not let us know what you think about it?
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#2135865 - 08/20/13 09:55 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
I'm very familiar with it and know the author. I'm just not sure what you're asking - the materials contain a lot of instructions. Maybe there's a more specific question here?
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#2135868 - 08/20/13 09:58 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Registered: 03/18/06
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TLT, as you live in Scotland, you need to remember than when you post, we're still all in dream land. Your post went up at 4:18AM my time. Some folks on the East Coast may have been up, but most likely not rushing to their computers to see what was new; after all most of us have lives outside of "computer world."

That said, I'm totally unfamiliar with the series, so an intelligent, well formed review would be appreciated by all.

Thanks,

John
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#2136114 - 08/20/13 04:38 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Thankyou for the responses. Please forgive my impatience, I posted a few days ago and was beginning to think I was being shunned. Stranger things happen.

Morodiene and John, I'm probably not up to a proper review as I really don't understand it yet. All I could say it is it unlike anything I have ever seen, as a beginner method. As a thorough ear-training method for someone who is already playing, it is probably excellent (as long as they're not British, there are just too many rude words in it! But I digress...)

The point as far as I can see is not to learn from notation, but by rote and 'audiation' - hearing and repeating patterns in the CD. Kreisler, please keep me right here as I may have misunderstood. I had not heard of Edwin Gordon until a few days ago, but since then I've been researching.

I can see a lot of value in the rhythm chants and games, but I need more input into how to actually implement them before I could actually use them with a student. There are a few youtube videos, but I'm not getting what I should actually do. I have the games books and student books 1-4, but not the pattern CD (which I seem to need).

Kreisler, you are right, the materials contain a lot of instructions, too many for me to deal with without seeing the bigger picture. Keyboard Games B is the only book devoid of bloopers that I could actually use with a child. So if there is anything you can tell me to orient me in what the principles are, how I can use the principles, then I would be grateful.

I should say I totally believe in learning from notation (for piano) and I teach up and down at the keyboard at the first lesson (Music Moves advises against the terms up and down, left and right and finger numbers).
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#2141439 - 08/30/13 03:17 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
OK, trying again.

What's macrobeat and what's microbeat and more importantly how does one teach this to a child?
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#2141594 - 08/30/13 11:11 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
The macrobeat is the large beat that's felt - in 4/4 time it would be a quarter note. In 6/8 time it would be a dotted quarter. It's often taught by marching or swaying, feeling the beat in your body.

The microbeat is the subdivision. In 4/4 and 6/8 it would be the eighth note. In a beat, there can be two or three microbeats (depending on whether or not the meter is simple or compound.) This is also taught through movement and chanting. Often, the student will move to the macrobeat and say the microbeats. Gordon uses the syllables Du-de (for simple meters) or Du-da-di (for compound meters.)

All this is very similar to Kodaly instruction. The "Ta" is the macrobeat and the "ti-ti" are the microbeats.

Gordon's (and Lowe's) system is based on how music is felt internally. It often sounds complicated when we put it into words, but in a classroom setting with children, it feels and comes very naturally to them, provided the sequence and instruction is clear.
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#2141656 - 08/31/13 03:47 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Thanks for the reply, Kreisler.

Is this really similar to Kodaly? So far I thought they were very different. In Kodaly a crotchtet/quarter is ta. But in Gordon's/ Lowes system as far as I can hear, what you call it depends on when it comes. So I thought for Du da di, I was in 3/4 and if it came on beat 1, it was du, if it came on beat 2, it was da and if it came on beat 3 it was di. Not right?

I'm afraid I am very confused.

So how do you give clear instruction then? How exactly do you start this up?
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#2141723 - 08/31/13 09:17 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
The syllables are different, but the underlying musical feel is the same.

I'm afraid it's impossible to explain in an Internet post....you'd need to attend a training seminar or go through some of Gordon's or Lowe's books in detail. There's a teacher guide that explains it al very well and includes lesson plans.
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#2141732 - 08/31/13 09:41 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
keystring Online   content
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If in the example of 3/4 time, the "macrobeat" is the quarter note, and the "microbeat" is the eighth note, then you can translate that into what you know about music, and how you yourself work with beats and pulses in music. (It's also my first time seeing these terms). So as a musician, you know that in a 3/4 waltz you have this "ONE two three" or "BOOM tish tish" (I'm hearing a drum set). You also know if there are smaller note values like eighth notes, they will not be as strong because they come in between, so that it's like
"ONE and two and three and" (my guess)

I'm thinking that it would be cool if there were an audio demonstration of the concepts existing in the book to help you get what they mean by these terms. Would Google on the "video" setting yield anything?

Kreisler, some questions:
- are "macrobeat" and "microbeat" standard terms, or unique to the writers of this book?
- if not standard, is there a standard term for the "microbeat"?


Edited by keystring (08/31/13 09:43 AM)

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#2141744 - 08/31/13 10:19 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Loc: Irvine, CA
In CM, from Level 7 and up the beats are divided as below:

4/4 has 4 beats and 4 pulses
3/4 has 3 beats and 3 pulses
6/8 has 6 beats, but it is only 2 pulses
12/8 has 12 beats, and it is 4 pulses

So, I think in this case we can say that:
Macrobeat=pulses
Microbeat=beats

Anyone understand this?
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#2141746 - 08/31/13 10:20 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Loc: Irvine, CA
OTOH, TLT, I wrote you a PM.
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#2141761 - 08/31/13 11:06 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: keystring]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: keystring
Kreisler, some questions:
- are "macrobeat" and "microbeat" standard terms, or unique to the writers of this book?
- if not standard, is there a standard term for the "microbeat"?


The terms are unique to the writers of the book. As far as I'm aware, there's no standard term, although the underlying concepts are all very familiar to those with training in elementary music education (Orff, Kodaly, etc...)
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#2141793 - 08/31/13 11:58 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: Kreisler]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
The syllables are different, but the underlying musical feel is the same.

I'm afraid it's impossible to explain in an Internet post....you'd need to attend a training seminar or go through some of Gordon's or Lowe's books in detail. There's a teacher guide that explains it al very well and includes lesson plans.


Kreisler, there don't seem to be any events this side of the Atlantic. Maybe the Teacher guide would help, maybe not, I don't know.

What I have done is taken what you said and checked again with the Pattern CD.

I don't think a note value = a syllable as in Kodaly.

Here's what happens (I'll say this in US English to make it more intelligible)

The measure in 4/4 time:

1/8 1/8 1/4, 1/8 1/8 1/4
Goes as:
Du-de du, du-de du

So, Du is when it's on the beat (macrobeat) and de is the offbeat in simple time.

It's not that Du is a 1/4. Du might be a 1/4, or it might be an 1/8.

Not so?
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#2141817 - 08/31/13 12:54 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
It all depends on how the pulse is felt.

It's best not to be pedantic and say that "Du" is necessarily a particular note. It can change. Apologies for my earlier explanation being a bit too simplistic.

Here's a video that shows an Gordon exercise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS4PxCTxdno

It begins with a neutral syllable (Ba) representing the macrobeat (large beat) which is felt in the body in a variety of ways.

Then, you hear "Du-da-di", showing that the rhythm is felt in threes - a triple meter. You can see the macrobeat remains in the feet, the microbeat is in the hands, and the rhythm is chanted on a neutral syllable and students are invited to repeat and improvise on it.

Obviously, the rhythms in the video could be notated in a lot of different ways. 3/8, 6/8, or 3/4. The macro and microbeats would have different note values depending on how it's notated, but the basic feel remains the same.
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"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#2141819 - 08/31/13 12:56 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
It should be said that one of the ideas behind Gordon's thought is that experience precedes notation. The goal is not to ascribe syllables to notated music, but rather to experience rhythm in the body and through chanting - to internalize it before seeing what it might look like on paper.
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"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#2141870 - 08/31/13 03:41 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
ten left thumbs Offline
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Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Thanks I was beginning to think I was going mad. As far as I can see, Gordon/Lowe is as different from Kodaly as Kodaly was from notation, and there may be something in it.

I've seen a couple of the rhythm exercises in groups. What I'm not sure about is how to start one up from scratch given my students haven't done this before. Probably the answer is just to do it!
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#2142096 - 09/01/13 03:20 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ezpiano.org]
The Monkeys Offline
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Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 399
Loc: Vancouver BC
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
In CM, from Level 7 and up the beats are divided as below:

4/4 has 4 beats and 4 pulses
3/4 has 3 beats and 3 pulses
6/8 has 6 beats, but it is only 2 pulses
12/8 has 12 beats, and it is 4 pulses

So, I think in this case we can say that:
Macrobeat=pulses
Microbeat=beats

Anyone understand this?


6/8 has 3 accents at the 1st and 4th beat, while 3/4 has accents on every beat. Is that what you meant?

I actually like the name Macrobeat and Microbeat when it comes to 6/8. But it seem not very useful or even confusing with 3/4.

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#2142128 - 09/01/13 05:34 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: The Monkeys]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys

6/8 has 3 accents at the 1st and 4th beat, while 3/4 has accents on every beat. Is that what you meant?


er, you mean 2 accents?

Quote:

I actually like the name Macrobeat and Microbeat when it comes to 6/8. But it seem not very useful or even confusing with 3/4.



Funny you should mention that. What I've been contemplating is I don't see how the Gordon/Lowe method deals with 3/4 where each quarter is a macrobeat. I see how it works in a fast 3/4 where the dotted half is the macrobeat (basically, like 6/8).

But a real 3/4? Or worse yet, 9/8?
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#2142130 - 09/01/13 05:37 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ezpiano.org]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
In CM, from Level 7 and up the beats are divided as below:

4/4 has 4 beats and 4 pulses
3/4 has 3 beats and 3 pulses
6/8 has 6 beats, but it is only 2 pulses
12/8 has 12 beats, and it is 4 pulses


There are language things happening here. For ABRSM, 6/8 has two beats (duple time). Each beat is subdivided into 3. There is no distinction between beats and pulses.
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#2142433 - 09/01/13 07:02 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 958
Loc: Irvine, CA
Originally Posted By: Monkey
6/8 has 3 accents at the 1st and 4th beat, while 3/4 has accents on every beat. Is that what you meant?


I mean 6/8 has 2 accents at the 1st and 4th beat, while 3/4 has accents on every beat.
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#2142441 - 09/01/13 07:13 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ezpiano.org]
Gary D. Offline
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Registered: 08/30/08
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Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
Originally Posted By: Monkey
6/8 has 3 accents at the 1st and 4th beat, while 3/4 has accents on every beat. Is that what you meant?


I mean 6/8 has 2 accents at the 1st and 4th beat, while 3/4 has accents on every beat.

That's the problem. The system being discussed considers only one "accent" per measure in 3/4 time. They define that "accent" as the "macro-beat".

This would be more like: "How many beats per measure in 3/4 time?"

The standard answer is double: three beats per measure when slow, but only one beat per measure when fast.

That's what the system is trying to clear up. You use your ear, not your eye. Fast 3/4, 6/4, 9/4 and 12/4, also 3/8, 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8 may all be perceived as three macros and three minis.

It's just a system, including ways of counting the perceived patterns...
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#2142446 - 09/01/13 07:23 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
The Monkeys Offline
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Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 399
Loc: Vancouver BC
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys

6/8 has 3 accents at the 1st and 4th beat, while 3/4 has accents on every beat. Is that what you meant?


er, you mean 2 accents?


My bad, I mean 2, sorry.

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#2142462 - 09/01/13 07:47 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: The Monkeys]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys

6/8 has 3 accents at the 1st and 4th beat, while 3/4 has accents on every beat. Is that what you meant?


er, you mean 2 accents?


My bad, I mean 2, sorry.

But that't the problem. What you are calling "accents" changes with tempo. 6/8 can be 6 beats to the measure, or 2. And this system is not about how many accents to a notated bar. It only considers accents.

Thus 2 measures of 3/8 may well sound no different from 1 measure of 6/8, and so on.

That is the point. Notation makes us think we hear things we do not hear. Our ears are influenced by how the music looks. For someone who is trying to learn how to notate what he/she hears, that can be deadly.
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#2142621 - 09/02/13 01:57 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
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Registered: 08/07/07
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Loc: Orange County, CA
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#2142633 - 09/02/13 02:41 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: Gary D.]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5275
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys

6/8 has 3 accents at the 1st and 4th beat, while 3/4 has accents on every beat. Is that what you meant?


er, you mean 2 accents?


My bad, I mean 2, sorry.

But that't the problem. What you are calling "accents" changes with tempo. 6/8 can be 6 beats to the measure, or 2. And this system is not about how many accents to a notated bar. It only considers accents.

Thus 2 measures of 3/8 may well sound no different from 1 measure of 6/8, and so on.

That is the point. Notation makes us think we hear things we do not hear. Our ears are influenced by how the music looks. For someone who is trying to learn how to notate what he/she hears, that can be deadly.

Great point, Gary!

On old CM tests, there was this audio question that asks students if the music is in 3/4 time or 6/8 time. I just told my students to mark 3/4, and if they got it wrong, go argue--because all 6/8 music can be rewritten in 3/4, but not all 3/4 music can be rewritten in 6/8. The question is tragically flawed.

Here's another one of those ambiguous ones:

http://youtu.be/OaiUtwYU9S8
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#2142909 - 09/02/13 04:08 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzyclassical Offline
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Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 154
Loc: California
[quote=ten left thu
I've seen a couple of the rhythm exercises in groups. What I'm not sure about is how to start one up from scratch given my students haven't done this before. Probably the answer is just to do it! [/quote]
I just wanted to say that you prob should get the teachers guide for Book 1 at the very least. There are some very detailed lesson plans in that book. Also, I did try Music Moves for a little while with preschoolers and it was nice although I didn't have the same effect with older children (school age and up). I have put the program aside for now but I would be very open to attending a seminar to better understand the "big picture". I think the reason Music Moves was a bit difficult for me was it was as if i was learning a whole new language and culture and then expected to teach it like someone with expertise! It was very daunting. On the other I am very comfortable teaching piano in much the same way that I was taught. That doesn't mean I think one way is better than the other. i just have much more expertise in a different approach. That said, I would still most likely use keyboard games A with preschoolers coupled with First Steps in Music as a music readiness course for 4 year olds.
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#2142911 - 09/02/13 04:12 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: AZNpiano]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11170
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano


On old CM tests, there was this audio question that asks students if the music is in 3/4 time or 6/8 time. I just told my students to mark 3/4, and if they got it wrong, go argue--because all 6/8 music can be rewritten in 3/4, but not all 3/4 music can be rewritten in 6/8. The question is tragically flawed.

When it comes to those exam questions I'm wondering whether they are like the RCM ones at all. In those, the sample music usually has a clear duple beat for 6/8 (two beats per measure), and clear triple beat for 3/4. The advice that I got for theory exams was to listen to the music in my head and use what the music does for the answer. If there is a clear duple beat, then it can't be written in 3/4. Would the examples in the CM exam be ambiguous? (Ours were contrived to be clear).

Quote:
Here's another one of those ambiguous ones:

http://youtu.be/OaiUtwYU9S8

Oh indeed! Thank you for that! smile


Edited by keystring (09/02/13 04:17 PM)

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#2143044 - 09/02/13 07:28 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: keystring]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5275
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: keystring
When it comes to those exam questions I'm wondering whether they are like the RCM ones at all. In those, the sample music usually has a clear duple beat for 6/8 (two beats per measure), and clear triple beat for 3/4. The advice that I got for theory exams was to listen to the music in my head and use what the music does for the answer. If there is a clear duple beat, then it can't be written in 3/4. Would the examples in the CM exam be ambiguous? (Ours were contrived to be clear).

Unfortunately, I can't tell you--we don't have access to old audio questions. But the question itself is flawed. Even if the 6/8 audio example were the most contrived Burgmuller tarantella, you can still re-write it in 3/4 time.

Here's another example: "Take Me Out to the Ball Game." It can be in either 3/4 or 6/8. It's completely an interpretation.
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#2143255 - 09/03/13 04:32 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: jazzyclassical]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: jazzyclassical

I just wanted to say that you prob should get the teachers guide for Book 1 at the very least. There are some very detailed lesson plans in that book. Also, I did try Music Moves for a little while with preschoolers and it was nice although I didn't have the same effect with older children (school age and up). I have put the program aside for now but I would be very open to attending a seminar to better understand the "big picture". I think the reason Music Moves was a bit difficult for me was it was as if i was learning a whole new language and culture and then expected to teach it like someone with expertise! It was very daunting. On the other I am very comfortable teaching piano in much the same way that I was taught. That doesn't mean I think one way is better than the other. i just have much more expertise in a different approach. That said, I would still most likely use keyboard games A with preschoolers coupled with First Steps in Music as a music readiness course for 4 year olds.


Good to know, I feel very much the same way about it being a foreign language.

Does the teacher's guide help with the big picture? I have already spent a lot of money on this and if I spend more I want to do it wisely. One thing I have noticed is that the programme seems extremely complicated - and I do feel rather like someone is trying to micromanage me. In my experience, 'lesson plans' are normally further micro-management.

I've also been thinking it might be wise to invest in one of Gordon's books, Learning Sequences in Music.

For now, I just can't spend more money.

I thought instead I'd go through the books slowly, giving myself a couple of days at each lesson, listening to the patterns, etc as a student is supposed to do.

Nice to know about the First Steps in Music. What is most useful there in individual lessons? The curriculum book, or the CD's?
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#2143256 - 09/03/13 04:39 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: keystring]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: keystring
(Ours were contrived to be clear).



Ours are also contrived. smile It's all in how the examiner plays them. The same can be said for distinguishing 2 beats per bar or 4. It's all in how it's played. And I feel the examiners don't mark too harshly if the candidate give the 'wrong' answer but with good reason.

So, from listening to the Music Moves, and from Kreisler's definition of 'macrobeat', my conclusion is that what they call 'duple time' is what we call 'simple time' and what they call 'triple time' is what we call 'compound time'. This is all in what we call duple or quadruple metre.

What I have yet to discover is do they cover what we call 'triple metre'?

(By 'we' I mean the generally accepted UK-ABRSM based definitions).

So it's fine to go:

Du Du Du Du Du Du Du Du

But can you go

Du Du Du Du Du Du Du Du Du

?


Edited by ten left thumbs (09/03/13 04:39 AM)
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#2143261 - 09/03/13 04:53 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: AZNpiano]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys

6/8 has 3 accents at the 1st and 4th beat, while 3/4 has accents on every beat. Is that what you meant?


er, you mean 2 accents?


My bad, I mean 2, sorry.

But that't the problem. What you are calling "accents" changes with tempo. 6/8 can be 6 beats to the measure, or 2. And this system is not about how many accents to a notated bar. It only considers accents.

Thus 2 measures of 3/8 may well sound no different from 1 measure of 6/8, and so on.

That is the point. Notation makes us think we hear things we do not hear. Our ears are influenced by how the music looks. For someone who is trying to learn how to notate what he/she hears, that can be deadly.

Great point, Gary!

On old CM tests, there was this audio question that asks students if the music is in 3/4 time or 6/8 time. I just told my students to mark 3/4, and if they got it wrong, go argue--because all 6/8 music can be rewritten in 3/4, but not all 3/4 music can be rewritten in 6/8. The question is tragically flawed.

Here's another one of those ambiguous ones:

http://youtu.be/OaiUtwYU9S8

Yes. Great example. I have known this piece for as long as I can remember back, but I just never bothered to look at the score. I assumed there was a trick here, so I simply listened to it my head first.

What I heard was a simple waltz in E, with the RH coming on 1 and 3 of the first of two measures, then 2 in the next. I would challenge anyone to guess Ravel's notation. I would even say that the notation is likely to cause something rather unnatural and artificial to happen.

Interesting, I think, is that Ravel could have notated his idea in 6/8, nothing else changed except the beaming. Or he might have beamed the LH in threes but the RH in twos. And if he had written the same thing 50 years later, with the exact same sound in mind, again he might have notated it differently.

Often composers modified there notational style later in life.

Both Argerich's and Michaelangeli's famous recordings just sound like the playing of an elegant waltz.

The point, I think, is that we can intellectually conceive of rhythms that no one will hear as we do. It is the playing that dictates what we hear.
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#2143263 - 09/03/13 04:59 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: keystring]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: keystring

When it comes to those exam questions I'm wondering whether they are like the RCM ones at all. In those, the sample music usually has a clear duple beat for 6/8 (two beats per measure), and clear triple beat for 3/4. The advice that I got for theory exams was to listen to the music in my head and use what the music does for the answer. If there is a clear duple beat, then it can't be written in 3/4. Would the examples in the CM exam be ambiguous? (Ours were contrived to be clear).

But it can. You simply write something all in 3/4, and it is fairly fast. But every two bars could be written as one of 6/4 or 6/8. So those theory exams are simply wrong. Which is not surprising.

All you have to do is to find a Chopin Waltz, then see if it has an even number of bars in every section that could also be thought of in pairs. Take the middle section of the "Minute Waltz". It could easily have been written in 6/8. It is all quarters. The sound would be no different.

It is much like the idea of 4/4 vs. 2/2. In theory one has four beats, the other 2, but you will find MANY exceptions.
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#2143264 - 09/03/13 05:00 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: AZNpiano]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4649
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: keystring
When it comes to those exam questions I'm wondering whether they are like the RCM ones at all. In those, the sample music usually has a clear duple beat for 6/8 (two beats per measure), and clear triple beat for 3/4. The advice that I got for theory exams was to listen to the music in my head and use what the music does for the answer. If there is a clear duple beat, then it can't be written in 3/4. Would the examples in the CM exam be ambiguous? (Ours were contrived to be clear).

Unfortunately, I can't tell you--we don't have access to old audio questions. But the question itself is flawed. Even if the 6/8 audio example were the most contrived Burgmuller tarantella, you can still re-write it in 3/4 time.

Here's another example: "Take Me Out to the Ball Game." It can be in either 3/4 or 6/8. It's completely an interpretation.

Exactly. wink
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#2143466 - 09/03/13 02:13 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzyclassical Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 154
Loc: California
I think the teachers guide for book one is the best at presenting how the material should be taught. So it gives a good idea of the "big picture" in some sense. I still think it would be great to attend a seminar however, it's the next best thing. Gordon's learning sequences in music book provides the philosophy behind it.
I get what you are saying about the micromanaging aspect, but that would be helpful to teachers new to the method. I think you certainly can use it as a guide, I definitely did with the preschool groups I taught. What I did was I used Feierabends first steps in music for the songs and activities in my program and used music moves as the piano component for 4 year olds.
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#2143499 - 09/03/13 03:35 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Good to know, jc. I will get the teacher guide in the next round.

Would you say the Feierabends be good for individual lessons, you think?
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#2143561 - 09/03/13 06:03 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzyclassical Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 154
Loc: California
Groups.
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#2143823 - 09/04/13 02:42 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: jazzyclassical]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3328
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: jazzyclassical
Groups.


thanks
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