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#2136046 - 08/20/13 02:34 PM Question About Tuning
Duane Graves Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/16/13
Posts: 32
A basic question that I have is what is the common electronic tuner that piano tuners use to give the desired note...thank you, Duane.

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#2136118 - 08/20/13 04:43 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4190
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Tunelab is one and Verituner is another if i recall correctly.

I use the manual method; tuning fork and ear muscle group, so there are likely other names that escape me.
_________________________
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2136231 - 08/20/13 08:03 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1658
Loc: Chicagoland
Sanderson Accutuner (SAT) is the one with the longest legacy. Stand-alone machine only for tuning.

Reyburn Cybertuner, Tunelab, Verituner, OnlyPure and Dirk's are all software programs that run on a variety of platforms.

Verituner first generation "the box" was also a stand-alone machine only for tuning.

There were older ones and some simpler, modern ones, but I think the above represents the ones that take information from the actual sound of the piano via a microphone input to adjust the tuning to better match a specific piano.

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#2136247 - 08/20/13 08:55 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: RonTuner]
Duane Graves Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/16/13
Posts: 32
Which one do you recommend, Ron? thanks, Duane.

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#2136292 - 08/20/13 10:33 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 401
Loc: Lincoln, NE
I use TuneLab http://www.tunelab-world.com/ and Tunic OnlyPure http://www.piano-stopper.de/html/tunic_onlypure.html . There is no "common" tuning device or ETD (Electronic Tuning Device). I suppose the granddaddy would be the Sanderson Accu-tuner http://www.accu-tuner.com/. It's a dedicated device and the others are software or apps as they call them now. Over all I'd recommend TuneLab. It's the least expensive at $300 and available on the most platforms - iPhone, Android (the only one for Android), Pocket PC and PC. Is it the best? I don't know but it does the job. I think it's the only one that produces a tone like a tuning fork would which is handy to have.
_________________________
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#2136301 - 08/20/13 10:55 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1658
Loc: Chicagoland
Duane, I prefer the tunings that the Verituner calculates using the custom styles available to in the software.

All of them are strong programs or platforms, but the Verituner is the only one (and maybe Dirk's, but I have no experience with that one) that uses a large number of measurements from the piano to micro-adjust the tuning calculation from end to end.

It depends what you are looking for from the electronic tuning device. Those that already know how to tune well aurally may need less guidance than the Verituner offers and are happy to take advantage of the pitch-raising features and the consistency that all of the platforms offer.

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#2136314 - 08/20/13 11:18 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: RonTuner]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 671
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Duane - I've logged just over 5,000 tunings on a Veritune 100 (the box) that I bought near the time when it first became available. I've had to replace the battery and charger once, the touchpads and also the on / off switches, but it still performs flawlessly. I love it, and wouldn't think of switching.

Before that, I had gone through 5 Tunemasters, by Berkshire instruments. I liked them at the time, but only because I didn't know any better. They tuned every piano exactly the same - didn't analyze the data from the specific piano to give a tuning unique to the instrument. But in 1973 when I started out, they seemed a whole lot better than a Conn Strobotuner. I liked the needle display - which the Verituner replicates (although not with an actual physical needle.)

Good luck with your decision to change careers at this point in you life, and all the excitement that will go along with it. Beats the heck out of retiring from your job to become a greeter at Walmart. The challenge of learning piano tuning and repair will keep you young at heart, I predict. Chuck Behm


Edited by Chuck Behm (08/21/13 12:36 AM)
_________________________
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#2136804 - 08/21/13 07:53 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
Duane Graves Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/16/13
Posts: 32
Thank you, Chuck, very encouraging comments especially the Walmart Greeter, but you know what I would do that a little bit just because I love talking to people. Thank you to all who have responded it is very encouraging to get helpful answers and the answers are so different but all lead to good things. Reminds me of the Mandolin Café and the forum there....lots of good stuff about the instrument.....Duane.

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#2136811 - 08/21/13 08:15 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
Duane Graves Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/16/13
Posts: 32
You know, the tuners you all mention are just great and I will get one I'm sure but for now what is a good cheaper one say less than $100....can these be found....Duane

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#2136822 - 08/21/13 09:13 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3866
Originally Posted By: Duane Graves
You know, the tuners you all mention are just great and I will get one I'm sure but for now what is a good cheaper one say less than $100....can these be found....Duane


A tuning fork, instructions on how to tune an aural temperament, and your ears.
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#2136879 - 08/22/13 12:23 AM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2402
Loc: Olympia, WA
You will never regret learning to tune aurally. If you have healthy ears and enough patience, you can do it. Becoming dependent on a machine will be a limitation.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#2136975 - 08/22/13 07:03 AM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1726
Loc: Mexico City
Yes, it's really wonderfull to be able to tune a piano with only a fork, a tuning hammer and a mute!

Unfortunately, now in these cybernetic times, some customers ask me to use an ETD! They think it's better than aural tuning!

Some years ago, it was the contrary! Customers believed that a tuner had to use an ETD just because he couldn't tune aurally!


Edited by Gadzar (08/22/13 07:07 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2137056 - 08/22/13 09:49 AM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Bob]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Bob
Originally Posted By: Duane Graves
You know, the tuners you all mention are just great and I will get one I'm sure but for now what is a good cheaper one say less than $100....can these be found....Duane


A tuning fork, instructions on how to tune an aural temperament, and your ears.


This is a good answer. The question is supposing (rightly, apparently) that Tuners use a machine to tell them how to tune.

Congratulations for thé public to believe that today.
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#2137058 - 08/22/13 09:52 AM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Gadzar]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Yes, it's really wonderfull to be able to tune a piano with only a fork, a tuning hammer and a mute!

Unfortunately, now in these cybernetic times, some customers ask me to use an ETD! They think it's better than aural tuning!

Some years ago, it was the contrary! Customers believed that a tuner had to use an ETD just because he couldn't tune aurally!


That is a disaster, or the proof some finesse in listening is lost.

Probably local, this is the opposite here at the moment. For how long?
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2137389 - 08/22/13 08:00 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1726
Loc: Mexico City
Yesterday I tuned a wurlitzer spinet for the first time. The owner asked me if I tune with an ETD, I said yes if you want, but I can also tune by ear.

He told me the last time the piano was tuned, aurally, the tuning was weird, the treble was flat and some chords just didn't sound right. He has complained to the tech who has retouched the tuning. But he was not satisfied with the final tuning. So this time, he wanted to try with an ETD!

I tune for some recording studios and they also ask me to tune with an ETD.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2137394 - 08/22/13 08:14 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
Duane Graves Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/16/13
Posts: 32
Yes, this is all good and thank you for sharing but what I asked was: "You know, the tuners you all mention are just great and I will get one I'm sure but for now what is a good cheaper one say less than $100....can these be found....Duane" so....does anyone know of any EDT's as they are called available and reliable at a more "delicate" price....tks, Duane.

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#2137396 - 08/22/13 08:30 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1726
Loc: Mexico City
Nop.

And I know you are not going to appreciate my answer but an ETD is only a tool. You are supposed to know how to tune in order to make a good use of it.

In other words, if you do not know how to tune a piano it is useless to buy an ETD.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2137399 - 08/22/13 08:43 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1726
Loc: Mexico City
The cheapest professional level tuning software I know is Tunelab Pro and it is about $300 +.

But this is not as much as the 2 to 3 years of training in tuning pianos with a good mentor or at least a $1,600 course of piano technology plus a good $1,000 to buy a decent tuning hammer and a minimum set of other tools to fix broken strings, sticking keys and other minor repairs.

So if you only have $100 to spend, you can call a professional tuner to tune your piano!


Edited by Gadzar (08/22/13 08:55 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2137408 - 08/22/13 08:55 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1658
Loc: Chicagoland
Duane, feel free to PM me if you want to have a discussion about electronic tuning without the pressure to be an aural tuner first...

Tunelab is available as a free download - computer for sure, and maybe pocket PC as well. It will "lock up" for timed intervals as it reminds you to purchase a license, but it gives you a chance to see if it suits your needs.

Again, there are ways to maximize your chance of getting great tunings without being an aural tech first. The farthest from decent tunings I often see are from aural techs that either never really got good, have lost "the touch", or have just gotten sloppy..

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#2137421 - 08/22/13 09:16 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1968
Loc: Philadelphia area
Ron, I'm not sure what the OP wants. A good tuning fork can be had for under $20.00 US.

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#2137423 - 08/22/13 09:21 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Gadzar]
BenP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/12
Posts: 166
Loc: South Jersey
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
The cheapest professional level tuning software I know is Tunelab Pro and it is about $300 +.

But this is not as much as the 2 to 3 years of training in tuning pianos with a good mentor or at least a $1,600 course of piano technology plus a good $1,000 to buy a decent tuning hammer and a minimum set of other tools to fix broken strings, sticking keys and other minor repairs.

So if you only have $100 to spend, you can call a professional tuner to tune your piano!


Seriously? $1000 in tools before you can learn how to tune a piano? $1600 course? I started learning how to tune with a $35 tuning lever, a few sessions with a mentor, my ears, and the trial version of Tunelab (which Ron mentioned - glad someone is trying to actually help Duane). Yes, I have now spent exponentially more money on tools and training, but Duane is not trying to start a business overnight, as I understand it.

Duane, there is an excellent book by Arthur Reblitz that nearly all of us own and many of us learned with - it is only $20 on Amazon (link below) and discusses how to do an aural tuning (among many, many other things). Tunelab is also a great way to start - and the two in conjunction would be even better. The trial version of Tunelab is fully functional, you just have 2-minute wait periods every few notes, and it is intended for people that are just getting started or learning how the software works.

Reblitz book:
http://www.amazon.com/Piano-Servicing-Tu...eywords=reblitz

Tunelab:
http://www.tunelab-world.com/

Hope this helps. You most certainly will need a few tools as well - they can be found many places, including Piano Supplies, Piano World's online store (I'm seeing an ad on the left right now for a tuning kit).


Edited by BenP (08/22/13 09:26 PM)
Edit Reason: typos
_________________________
Ben Patterson
Part-time Piano Tech
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#2137435 - 08/22/13 09:37 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
Nash. Piano Rescue Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 384
Loc: East Nashville,TN Scottsville...
If you are looking to become a tuner for employment I can tell you that if you want to stay endlessly busy learn to tune by ear. Some of those guys will still use a machine to set temperament but I learned a long time ago that customers, especially those in the music business that record or use other instruments in a set like guitars want their pianos tuned by ear with the tuning fork.

A side note on tuning by ear in a music studio is making sure there are no open mikes set up anywhere, that one can get you if you are not careful.
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#2137456 - 08/22/13 10:13 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1726
Loc: Mexico City
My case actually contains tools for more than $2,500 US $, There is practically no repair I can not do when I visit a customer. Except for major repairs of course.

And if what you want is to help Duane, you better tell him he has to tune several hundreds pianos before he could get acceptable results.

I has a great respect of Ron Koval and his contributions to this forum, but to be honest I don't think a novice can get a decent tuning just by using Tunelab.

And there are many courses available in the internet, as cheap as a few dollars, but learning to tune pianos takes more than 2 years of practice with a good mentor!

There is no magic software which teaches you to settle the pIns, equalize tension's string, hammer technique, etc...

Even with an ETD, if you don't know the fundaments of piano tuning you can not get a correct tuning curve for a particular piano.


Edited by Gadzar (08/22/13 10:19 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2137470 - 08/22/13 11:03 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
That Guy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/11
Posts: 401
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Quote:
Even with an ETD, if you don't know the fundaments of piano tuning you can not get a correct tuning curve for a particular piano.


I would beg to differ. Sometimes with an ETD you can get a superior tuning curve. TuneLab samples several notes, measures the inharmonicity and the calculates the tuning curve for that piano. It's not a generic tuning curve. Other programs like Verituner and Tunic OnlyPure (another program I use) sample notes "on the fly" or as you tune. Tunic calls it "quasi real time". All these programs are very sophisticated and are only going to get better and more intuitive. As long as you pay close attention to the unions and octaves you'll come out fine.

Now, I'm not saying anything against aural tuning - I'm advocating for ETD tuning.
_________________________
Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com

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#2137471 - 08/22/13 11:16 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1658
Loc: Chicagoland
There's really no contest between a novice with an electronic tuning device and a novice with a tuning fork and a page of instructions...

But that's not really the question here, is it?

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#2137499 - 08/23/13 01:00 AM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21513
Loc: Oakland
I would phrase it: Without a fundamental knowledge of aural tuning, you will not be able to tell whether the result of using an ETD is correct or not.
_________________________
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#2137638 - 08/23/13 10:08 AM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: BDB]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1721
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: BDB
I would phrase it: Without a fundamental knowledge of aural tuning, you will not be able to tell whether the result of using an ETD is correct or not.


thumb

BTW, I happened to notice that some are still charging hefty $'s for this little book on aural tuning. It is old school, but sufficient for rudiments. Can be downloaded with or without illustrations, AND IT IS FREE:

http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=217889&pageno=1


Edited by bkw58 (08/23/13 10:08 AM)
Edit Reason: emphasis
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technic Blog

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#2137813 - 08/23/13 03:09 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: BDB]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: BDB
I would phrase it: Without a fundamental knowledge of aural tuning, you will not be able to tell whether the result of using an ETD is correct or not.

+1

However, no ETD available at this time (with the possible exception of Dirk's tuner) truly finds the best compromise temperament of every note on the piano (as a result of the unique inharmonicity of every string on the piano) that causes the partially related strings to become almost harmonically related and truly begin to sing. An exceptional ear can do this.

TuneLab will allow you to record each note, measure the iH multiple times and allow you to tune an Ok temperament, but it still uses generic stretch (user adjustable).

What I do is to put all the iH values into a spreadsheet, put in a theoretical temperament (I am using Young 1799), calculate the first 8 partials, and then stretch the temperament to match the M3 and P5 beat rates to the theoretical rates (as closely as is possible) throughout the entire compass of the piano.

I just tuned my BB to Young for the first time last week using this technique. The sound is truly amazing. I would be happy to post the spreadsheet for your comments, criticisms, and corrections, and will be posting a recording of the sound using arpeggios, chords, and chord progressions in each key. Chopin, Schubert, Debussy, Gershwin and just about every other composer come alive with the colour.




Edited by Mwm (08/23/13 03:18 PM)

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#2137817 - 08/23/13 03:16 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Mwm]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Question to all you tuners out there. When I moved my piano from ET to Young 1799, I did not make an adjustment to maintain the overall tension. It is now slightly higher. I found that as I moved the pitch to the new temperament in the C6 to C8 range, the individual string would start to ring and have longer sustain than at the old tension. Is this normal? Is it a result of the increased tension? Am I just thinking it is different?

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#2137827 - 08/23/13 03:35 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
I would think that the increased tension would tend to stiffen the board. So, I don't think it's that. Edit: unless it turns out that the responsiveness of this particular board is really optimized at a higher tension.

Though I have never tuned the Young 1799, I have absolutely found that various temperaments will affect the resonance and character of the piano, beyond just affecting the harmony. This is the main reason I personally use them.

I try to stay with temperaments that are very close to ET. Even the 1/10th CM, which might technically still be considered ET, affects the resonance.

Also, the way octaves are tuned... whether one takes a "local" approach, or a "global" approach across the whole keyboard.


Edited by daniokeeper (08/23/13 03:37 PM)
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