Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2136351 - 08/21/13 01:27 AM Mistake in Yamaha CP-300 programming?
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 580
Loc: Atlanta, GA
After many weeks of experimenting with editing the CP300 sounds, it's just come to me that the CP300's may have a fundamental, strangely bad problem--the start point for the amp envelope for Piano 1 is set at the peak. That is why editing software works fine for the attack on Piano 2, but not for Piano 1. There is no attack stage for Piano 1, since the start amplitude is the same as the peak amplitude. I'm astonished, really. On a $2k instrument, they made a freshman's mistake.

Makes me angry. I've always thought that stage pianos, from the keyboard, should let the user control basic elements such as the amp envelope. Finding that restricting access to basic parameters also hides elementary mistakes leaves me almost lost for words.


Edited by Jake Jackson (08/21/13 01:31 AM)

Top
(ads) Sweetwater / Roland
Kawai Superb Stage Piano and Controller

Click Here


#2136582 - 08/21/13 11:50 AM Re: Mistake in Yamaha CP-300 programming? [Re: Jake Jackson]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 572
Loc: Mt View, CA
Why is it a rookie mistake? I programmed mine the same way, so I'm curious to know. I think it would sound weird if it went up and back down. Could you post Piano 2 samples with the different attack settings?

Top
#2136615 - 08/21/13 01:07 PM Re: Mistake in Yamaha CP-300 programming? [Re: xorbe]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 580
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Well, just to be sure that we're on the same page--I'm not talking about wanting to create an artificial ramp-up, which would, yes, sound weird. I'm saying that the programmers apparently went in and artificially raised the amplitude of the very earliest stage of the attack by setting the start point of the samples to the same level as the peak.

To me, it creates two problems. Most basically, it creates an inaccurate picture of the attack. Although it might seem that the attack on a piano note is naturally loudest at the very start, if you zoom in on a wave file in an editor, a few milliseconds or so of movement from 0 decibels to the peak can be seen--the time in which the hammer is first coming into contact with the string, pushing against the string before it is released to vibrate.

The second problem is just the one that confused me--the user loses control over the attack. That stage of the envelope can't be manipulated because essentially it doesn't exist. Having control over the length of the attack seems to me to be essential--small changes can make a big difference.

One can of course argue that a stage piano is not a synth. The user should keep his manipulative synth thinking to himself. But that thought would lead me back to the first problem--if the desire was to create a piano emulation, the start point should not have had its amplitude artificially raised. This may seem like an abstract point--Yamaha can do what it likes, of course, and if raising the start point amplitude sounds better, then there should be no reason to complain. But listening to Piano 1 and 2 carefully, I hear the attack on Piano 2 as being much better. In addition, using an editor, the user can control the attack on all of the other pianos. That's what makes me think it was a mistake instead of an intentional way of brightening the attack. If they only wanted to manipulate the samples to brighten the attack, they could have instead just reduced the attack time.

I'll try to post a recording of a few notes later, but that will mean rerouting some cables.


Edited by Jake Jackson (08/21/13 01:21 PM)

Top
#2136624 - 08/21/13 01:35 PM Re: Mistake in Yamaha CP-300 programming? [Re: Jake Jackson]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 572
Loc: Mt View, CA
Originally Posted By: Jake Jackson
Most basically, it creates an inaccurate picture of the attack. Although it might seem that the attack on a piano note is naturally loudest at the very start, if you zoom in on a wave file in an editor, a few milliseconds or so of movement from 0 decibels to the peak can be seen--the time in which the hammer is first coming into contact with the string, pushing against the string before it is released to vibrate.

Ah, I have looked at my waves previously in detail, and that's what I saw. If the piano sample truly started at +/- 32767 then you would hear a really nasty pop ...

Top
#2136632 - 08/21/13 01:53 PM Re: Mistake in Yamaha CP-300 programming? [Re: xorbe]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 580
Loc: Atlanta, GA
I'm not sure if I understand--were you agreeing or disagreeing? In any case, here's a wave from the Black Grand in Audacity, zoomed in to reveal the attack, and how the start point is at a lower amplitude than the the peak. Very brief, but it's there:



But of course my real concern here is just that, mistake or no mistake, the programming limits what can be done with Piano 1.


Edited by Jake Jackson (08/21/13 01:58 PM)

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
"How It's Made" and Cunningham Piano Co.
by Rich Galassini
09/30/14 09:43 AM
How many different actions do the Kawai digitals have?
by Giancarlo Robles
09/30/14 09:34 AM
Hearing the changes
by paul abrahams
09/30/14 09:07 AM
My Kawai CA-95 does not record drum patterns
by SP6NIN
09/30/14 06:18 AM
page-turning for tablets
by Barly
09/30/14 04:02 AM
Who's Online
133 registered (ajames, accordeur, aesop, AaronH, 41 invisible), 1517 Guests and 17 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76376 Members
42 Forums
157882 Topics
2318762 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission