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#2132099 - 08/13/13 02:43 AM Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1762
Loc: KZ
I have a question.
What do technicians think the number of coils around a pin about . May be it's more than 3?
4 or 5
Will there be a more stability and a tight in hole piano pin?
http://youtu.be/7IUXCAcFuOo

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#2132111 - 08/13/13 04:24 AM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 23770
Loc: Oakland
Too few and the wire will not stay in the hole. Too many, and it is hard to get the coil tight. 3 turns is a good compromise, and the amount of wire you need is about a hand's breadth, which makes it easy to measure.
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#2132118 - 08/13/13 04:55 AM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 9230
Loc: France
it is about 2.5 turns and the rest with the wire stretch to get 3.

(more stretch in low medium than in high treble with <4 mm to 0.5 mm the number of turns will differ in the end.)

The more turns mean more wire stretch around the pin, I suspect it may make tuning less stable when new.

The problem we have sometime is that the hole is not at the same height than the old pins, and we are obliged to make a different number of coils than originally if we want the threaded part to be located right.

I make no direct relation between the number of coils and the becket. If the becket is angled frankly and correctly from the start, it can stay put even with one coil, it is ugly indeed.


Edited by Olek (08/13/13 04:57 AM)
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#2132127 - 08/13/13 05:21 AM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: BDB]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1762
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: BDB
Too many, and it is hard to get the coil tight. 3 turns is a good compromise, and the amount of wire you need is about a hand's breadth, which makes it easy to measure.

The compromise is 3 coils me clear. But I figured that if we increase it's to 4-5, then the area of ​​all coils distributed across a pin will become more and thus one unit of pressure on pin will decrease. Perhaps this will reduce the need for frequent maintenance a pin. I saw on the old German piano 5 coils

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#2132129 - 08/13/13 05:36 AM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1762
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek

I make no direct relation between the number of coils and the becket.

Is "becket" angle of string to a pin?

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#2132153 - 08/13/13 07:25 AM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 9230
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek

I make no direct relation between the number of coils and the becket.

Is "becket" angle of string to a pin?


yes the small piece of wire
_________________________
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

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#2132210 - 08/13/13 10:27 AM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
For number of coils you must also keep in mind the angle which the string bears off the pin. If this is too high or low, you could add unwanted difficulties in tuning. On some older pianos, if the pins were driven in a bit deeper for more hold, a compromise can be had by having one less coil, but still maintianing a gap of about a nickels width between the string and the plate.
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Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2132217 - 08/13/13 10:57 AM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Maximillyan]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2547
Loc: PA
When stringing, I wind 2 1/2 coils onto the pin before driving it in. Bringing the wire to pitch, accounting for stretching, usually adds another coil to it. So, I usually end up with 3 1/2.
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#2132314 - 08/13/13 02:13 PM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Loren D]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2544
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Loren D
When stringing, I wind 2 1/2 coils onto the pin before driving it in. Bringing the wire to pitch, accounting for stretching, usually adds another coil to it. So, I usually end up with 3 1/2.


Same here.

My mentor taught me to wind 2-1/2 in order to achieve 3-1/2 at pitch. If you look at most quality pianos, that is about the amount you should see.

I'm pretty sure I can wind 2-1/2 in my sleep anymore...
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
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#2132461 - 08/13/13 07:55 PM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 23770
Loc: Oakland
If I expect it to be about 3 coils, I will wind maybe 3-1/2 on the pin. I unwind it a bit, and the wire knows where to go when it is tightening up.
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Semipro Tech

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#2132540 - 08/13/13 10:24 PM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1762
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek

I make no direct relation between the number of coils and the becket.

Is "becket" angle of string to a pin?


yes the small piece of wire

Thank,Isaac

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#2132547 - 08/13/13 11:03 PM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1762
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery
For number of coils you must also keep in mind the angle which the string bears off the pin. If this is too high or low, you could add unwanted difficulties in tuning. On some older pianos, if the pins were driven in a bit deeper for more hold, a compromise can be had by having one less coil, but still maintianing a gap of about a nickels width between the string and the plate.

Hi,Emmery.
What should be the ideal (classic) angle of piano 90 ° ? Or less?
The fact that the gap between the string and the plate should always be, I agree with you. However, the fact that in the old piano to "get rid" of 1-2 coils we must of the fault of tuner which these pins hammer drive a block trying to tighten it's. Thus turns it's planted into a bush. Now we have to reduce it's number and change native angle. It is a pity that the old piano tuners were not aware of the healing properties of corrugated cardboard


Edited by Maximillyan (08/13/13 11:04 PM)

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#2132551 - 08/13/13 11:12 PM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: OperaTenor]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1762
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Originally Posted By: Loren D
When stringing, I wind 2 1/2 coils onto the pin before driving it in. Bringing the wire to pitch, accounting for stretching, usually adds another coil to it. So, I usually end up with 3 1/2.

I'm pretty sure I can wind 2-1/2 in my sleep anymore...

Is this akin to the knowledge passed into the unconscious figure skill to automatism?

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#2132569 - 08/14/13 12:35 AM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Maximillyan]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2544
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
No, just me trying to be funny. wink
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2132579 - 08/14/13 01:07 AM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: OperaTenor]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1762
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
No, just me trying to be funny. wink

I laugh along with you as well. Because if you do not be ridiculous after installing 10 or dozens of new strings in which we must make new pre-spiral coils, then you can go crazy.
It's f u n

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#2132851 - 08/14/13 03:26 PM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Maximillyan]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1997
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Demo is technically good, but it's the long way around the barn.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#2138049 - 08/24/13 01:32 AM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Maximillyan]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 851
Loc: CO, USA
So I'm looking at this old piano (in tune), and I'm noticing that greater than 90% of beckets are inserted into the pin in the tight range of 2 o'clock to 4 o'clock as I face the keyboard -- very neatly organized in appearance. If I hired out a string change and requested it to be done with similar uniform results, would it be reasonable, or is that not a norm in this day and age?

Thanks for your consideration-
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014)

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#2138207 - 08/24/13 10:49 AM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Maximillyan]
TunerJeff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 534
Loc: Oregon Coast
Getting the beckets (..the bend into the pin) all perfectly lined-up is a skill in itself! No matter how carefully one measures and cuts while stringing there will always be minor variation in where the becket ends up in most restringing jobs outside of a factory. Consistancy is a goal...it is not always achieved.

I would not fault a rebuilder for failing to get every becket perfectly lined-up at 2 to 4 o'clock after a restring. I'd be far more interested in having neat, clean, and tight coils with every pin driven to the same height and every string having the same angle toward the bearing points of the plate, pressure bar, or agraffes. That's where tuning stability will come from...not the visual of 2-4 o'clock on becket alignment. OK?

.02-----ching!
_________________________
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com

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#2138217 - 08/24/13 11:10 AM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: TunerJeff]
James Carney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 440
Loc: new york city
Originally Posted By: TunerJeff
Getting the beckets (..the bend into the pin) all perfectly lined-up is a skill in itself! No matter how carefully one measures and cuts while stringing there will always be minor variation in where the becket ends up in most restringing jobs outside of a factory. Consistancy is a goal...it is not always achieved.

I would not fault a rebuilder for failing to get every becket perfectly lined-up at 2 to 4 o'clock after a restring. I'd be far more interested in having neat, clean, and tight coils with every pin driven to the same height and every string having the same angle toward the bearing points of the plate, pressure bar, or agraffes. That's where tuning stability will come from...not the visual of 2-4 o'clock on becket alignment. OK?

.02-----ching!


+1
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http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/

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#2138261 - 08/24/13 12:34 PM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: James Carney]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2544
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: James Carney
Originally Posted By: TunerJeff
Getting the beckets (..the bend into the pin) all perfectly lined-up is a skill in itself! No matter how carefully one measures and cuts while stringing there will always be minor variation in where the becket ends up in most restringing jobs outside of a factory. Consistancy is a goal...it is not always achieved.

I would not fault a rebuilder for failing to get every becket perfectly lined-up at 2 to 4 o'clock after a restring. I'd be far more interested in having neat, clean, and tight coils with every pin driven to the same height and every string having the same angle toward the bearing points of the plate, pressure bar, or agraffes. That's where tuning stability will come from...not the visual of 2-4 o'clock on becket alignment. OK?

.02-----ching!


+1


+2
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
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#2138318 - 08/24/13 01:35 PM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 23770
Loc: Oakland
Even if you have them lined up well, the order in which the strings are pulled to pitch makes a difference in how the beckets will aim. Generally, pulling the first shared string will mean that you pull the second one less. But if you are consistent, they should line up pretty well.
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#2138348 - 08/24/13 02:56 PM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Maximillyan]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4263
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Having all the beckets line up is not that much of a problem. The stringer has to be aware that various sizes of wire will have slightly differing lengths to achieve becket/ tuning pin lineup.

Not important that they are, lined up, just looks neat and tidy. A skill learned in the old European way; repeating the process over and over.
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2138601 - 08/25/13 01:38 AM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3707
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

Not important that they are, lined up, just looks neat and tidy.


When they are lined up it makes the tuning hammer transfer so much nicer.
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Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

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#2138644 - 08/25/13 05:41 AM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 9230
Loc: France
it can be computed using the diameter of the pin and wire , plus the stretch the string will have when at pitch .

the difference is about 1/5 turn between the thickest and the thinnest strings. just stretch varies from 0.5 to 4 mm




Edited by Olek (08/25/13 10:26 AM)
_________________________
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!

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#2138997 - 08/25/13 10:38 PM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Maximillyan]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 851
Loc: CO, USA
Thank you all for your comments. I am reading that it is a goal, but minor variation is to be expected. The coils, when I restring my folk guitar, generally come out looking like crap, and that is 100 X easier than the piano restringing I guess. I tip my hat to you guys doing this kind of beautiful work.

Best regards-
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014)

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#2139010 - 08/25/13 11:28 PM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: phacke]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1762
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: phacke
The coils, when I restring my folk guitar, generally come out looking like crap, and that is 100 X easier than the piano restringing I guess. I tip my hat to you guys doing this kind of beautiful work.

Russian aircraft's designer Tupolev said this:
"Beautiful plane flies well"


Edited by Maximillyan (08/25/13 11:31 PM)

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#2139157 - 08/26/13 10:59 AM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Maximillyan]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2325
In line beckets is a leftover from oblong pins. It is a beautiful thing to see rows of oblong pins in groups of six to all intents and purposes perfectly still in line with each other at a convenient tuning angle of 1.30. This, in one case after 100 years of 4xpa tuning, in another more recent case 150 years according to company records.

This makes absolute sense when we consider the strings and pins were installed by somebody who did the same thing for 40-50 years and subsequently tuned by well trained tuners who were well aware that the less they did, the more stable the piano. They were both solidly at 440. I gained a firmer grasp of piano tuning from tuning one of those four times a year.

To have modern square pins in line and the star tip in line with the handle can take several minutes off a tuning. Not that I time myself though I can't help but notice the difference in hi security venues the time difference between signing in and signing out.
_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.



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#2139214 - 08/26/13 01:15 PM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Maximillyan]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1548
Loc: Tennessee
Greetings,
Consistency is a desirable quality in a piano stringer. I want to know that the pins are all in the same distance, the curvature is aligned the same, and that as many things as possible be consistent. When I see all the beckets within a narrow range, it is proof that a stringer was being consistent, and I rarely see this in a sub-standard rebuild. I also rarely see a credible restringing where the beckets are the only thing that is inconsistent. If the hitchpin loops look like a disaster, the coils are usually no better, and the beckets are not even a consideration.
In and of themselves, the beckets are not important, but consistent ones leave the hammer in the same angle from note to note, string deflection consistent, and indicate that someone was taking care with their work. I strive for it, but I don't sweat the occasional stray and I don't pull wire around hitch and bridge pins after tensioning it, just to make the beckets exact.
Regards,

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#2139407 - 08/26/13 09:11 PM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Ed Foote]
Chuck Behm, CPT-E Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 833
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Hi all - I got interested in this topic a long time back when I tuned a piano which had been restrung by an out of state rebuilder. The beckets were nearly perfectly aligned, and with my string cutting technique (using the old hand width measurement standard) my beckets never looked that uniform, not by a long shot.

Anyway, on my next restringing, I started working on more precision, and over time got to the point where my beckets are very uniform.

If you would like to look over my methods, which add probably a minute per string to the process, check out this article I wrote up for Schaff - that is if you haven't seen it before. I hope it is helpful. Chuck
_________________________
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#2139422 - 08/26/13 10:08 PM Re: Maknig Good Tuning Pin Coils [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 23770
Loc: Oakland
The problem is that a minute per string adds up to about 4 hours. But practice makes for consistency, as well as speed.
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Semipro Tech

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