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It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
But I am a huge Lisitsa fan myself; I've got tickets to go see her opening night at the 92nd Street Y that I'm very much looking forward to.
But I still don't know what you're referring to, and chances are, I'd like to, if I don't know it already. Which I can't tell because I seriously have no idea what you're referring to.
Care to elaborate?
OK, all fair comment. I actually spent nearly an hour on my original post to this but decided I was time wasting. (Not ALL Hakki's fault, of course!)
So here goes, this is an old post, I am surprised you haven't seen it but perhaps you have forgotten it?
I am (again) not trying to be rude, but you are aware of how the "satellite states" hated the USSR?
It is very political.
Quite. Being Jewish of "satellite state" regional extraction certainly does not lend me with particular interest in wanting to identify anything as "Russian" when it's not, but I'm not sure Lisitsa and the OP are talking about the same thing.
Lisitsa is arguing that it's kind of a waste of time to definitively say one way or another that something is or is not part of a certain school, and for precision's sake, do not call her Russian. But I am quite sure she would not argue that as a very general matter, styles can have regional similarities.
My own teacher is Ukrainian (as well as Jewish) and when huge precision is not required (as it never is when you're talking general styles) she refers to the way she plays as "Russian." In fact, she has more than once referred to herself as a "Russian immigrant" when she's simply trying to evoke an idea rather than a particular principle or political statement.
When asked what MY heritage is, I have described it as "Jewish. Shtetl-y. You know, Russianish, pass the borscht."
Ask me politically what I think of Russia? You'll get a very different answer.
What on earth are you going on about, "Russian School" and Valentina Lisitsa for?
This seems a remarkable lack of knowledge of the subject.
You do KNOW....... don't you?
I'm afraid I have no idea what it is I'm supposed to know here.
But then again it's often less about the answer than the general desire to shame unsophistication when one asks a question and purposefully withholds the answer. Otherwise one would just simply share what it is they know and are sure you don't.
I'm not sure that slipperykeys knows what he/she's talking about either. Flat fingers are what was advocated by Josef Lhevine in his book Basic Principles in Pianoforte Playing. Whether this is the quintessential Russian School of piano playing I don't know, but Lhevine was definitely Russian and definitely well known as a piano pedagogue. You can't tell me otherwise, I own the book.
I won't tell you otherwise. I am glad you have such a book. Good for you, I don't know if I have that book myself, being a man I might have spilt beer over it after a drunken night's carousing and wenching. (We do a lot of that in England, if we are lucky enough!)
But that isn't the point, the point is Valentina Lisitsa and her style, or claimed lack of it.
I think this is what Hakki refers to when he talks about pianists playing very legato and deep into the keys. This is how you achieve a lovely luminous singing tone!
I find her style rather superficial. Which I myself tend to do as well.
That is, playing over the keys, with flat fingers, not pressing the keys all the way down, not holding full note values and not playing with true legato, instead using the sustain pedal excessively for these kind of passages. She plays as if she is just taking the dust over the keys with her fingers. I find this style contrary to the Russian school of playing.
Whereas, Kissin, Khozyainov, Kholodenko, etc. from this generation and Richter, Gilels from the past all seem to play with finger tips, pressing the keys firmly to the key bed, with power and solid tone, following the traditional Russian style.
What do you think?
Totally agree with everything you said. It's bothered me from the first time I ever saw her play. I've watched some (not many, because I'm not a fan) of her Youtubes, and also seen her play live, and in both cases she plays this way.
I just heard her live in the Rachmaninoff 2nd. She really accented the melodic line and kept an excellent rapport with the conductor. It was an outdoor concert and the piano was nicely miked, so this was not an opportunity to hear the subtleties of her performance. Instead, by focusing so much on the melody she showed herself to be very adaptable to the outdoor circumstances (including fighting screaming ambulances).
I doubt she ever had any intention of being a Russian pianist. She is Ukrainian, which might as well be on the other side of the world from Russia. I think that helped her establish an individual style, and the OP is quite correct in pointing out she is not a deep-in-the-keys, full tone type of pianist. That's fine with me. Her motions are graceful, and obviously economical or she would be making a lot of mistakes. Her technique is certainly adequate, and she has built up an amazing repertoire at this stage of her career. She is not a super-technician like Katsaris or Hamelin or even Kissin, but there is not much in the repertoire beyond her. What I really like about her playing is her tonal balance, especially the ability to pull out the melody in impossible pieces like the Schubert-Liszt songs. This is only possible because of her careful use of weight, which is more of a French school technique than from the Russian school.
The fact she has made a major career on her own through the internet - one of the first concert pianists to do so - will always be cited in her biographies.
Lisitsa often plays Bosendorfer. The others you mention more often played Steinway when they could ( Russians got stuck with some funky pianos )
Bosendorfer action and sound does not work well when playing it in a " Traditional Russian Style". On a Steinway, you can play through the point of sound. I am not sure if this makes sense to everyone here. On a Bosendorfer, and several other European style instruments, you have to play right at the point of sound. If you play a Bosendorfer with a Steinway approach, it chokes.
You can see Lisitsa playing Hamburg Steinways in her Rach concerto recordings. She is more than capable of doing exactly what she wants on either piano.
I really cannot look at Lisitsa if I'm going to give her performances a fair hearing. Her visual presentation, the facial expressions, those mannered, choreographed looking hand and arm movements, are enough to completely put me off. I just can't watch her.
Kate
"We are caught in a traffic jam of discursive thought." ~ Chogyam Trungpa "We lie in the lap of immense intelligence." ~ Emerson
Valentina is a phenomenal pianist. Her technique may be unconventional, but it is accomplished: she plows through the toughest Liszt transcriptions, and the brain-teasers that most people wouldn't even want to touch after reading the score. She takes her music very, very seriously, and there isn't a hint of showmanship or superficiality about her in interviews or live practice sessions.
And do note that I'm not saying that everyone needs to enjoy her playing. I love her playing and I put it right up there with the best of them, but what I'm really asking for is to give her a chance beyond the one or two YouTube recordings you might have heard.
As for the first part of your quote all of this is absolutely true, however, her playing goes well beyond mere flashy showmanship in the Schubert-Liszt transcriptions as she manages to bring out a real "singing" line amongst the notes and I find that her playing possesses some authentic emotional content and real depth of tone.
Here are three of the best examples where the piano has to "sing" as these are originally songs by Schubert and transcribed by Liszt:
It takes a phenomenal technique just to project the singing melody line in these pieces and no one does this better than Valentina Lisitsa. It sounds like to me I am hearing the music first and not just someone bent on speed and virtuosity for its own sake.
Again, she projects and highlights the melodic line of the song itself in very nice fashion amongst all of the other notes. One needs to compare her playing to the original song to fully take in the transcription:
I really cannot look at Lisitsa if I'm going to give her performances a fair hearing. Her visual presentation, the facial expressions, those mannered, choreographed looking hand and arm movements, are enough to completely put me off. I just can't watch her.
I am sure that Lisitsa's hand and arm movements are there only to serve the music and her technical approach to the piano. Many terrific pianists use the same kind of hand and arm movements as Lisitsa although she does them more frequently and with a bigger range of motion than most.
Her facial expressions are minor compared to many pianists and would not even be visible to the audience in a recital setting. It's only in the YouTube super close up view that they are noticeable. I actually never gave them a second thought even on her Youtube videos. There are very few pianists who will not appear to be making faces if viewed as if one were only a foot a way and facing them front on.
Lisitsa often plays Bosendorfer. The others you mention more often played Steinway when they could ( Russians got stuck with some funky pianos )
Bosendorfer action and sound does not work well when playing it in a " Traditional Russian Style". On a Steinway, you can play through the point of sound. I am not sure if this makes sense to everyone here. On a Bosendorfer, and several other European style instruments, you have to play right at the point of sound. If you play a Bosendorfer with a Steinway approach, it chokes.
You can see Lisitsa playing Hamburg Steinways in her Rach concerto recordings. She is more than capable of doing exactly what she wants on either piano.
Keith, the point of sound is at the same place on any properly regulated and maintained action, on any grand piano. Right at the "bump". And if I'm not mistaken, it's the same place on Bosies as it is on Steinways.
Frankly, aiming a Bosie slightly below the bump produces a very thick, rich sound, just like it does on on a Steinway, even though the characteristic timbre of the instrument is lighter and mitigates against that kind of color. Still, one can give the impression on a well regulated Bosie that it can be played mit schlag.
Unless of course you are telling us all that the Bosie action is regulated differently than any other piano in the world?
I have some minor quibbles with her playing, not so much for the result of what she does but from the standpoint of what I was taught was "good technique."
One point I was taught is - in spite of some comments to the contrary - that even while using the damper pedal, legato should be maintained, as much as possible, with the fingers. I'm a little distracted by how much she uses the damper pedal to hold notes when, it would appear, her fingers could do that work. I had a teacher, once, who adamantly claimed that he could distinctly hear the difference between notes held by the damper and those created by "finger legato." In some instances this is obvious, in others, less so.
That said, I admire how totally relaxed Lisitsa is at the keyboard. If her hand, wrist and arm movements seem a little excessive to some, I consider that that must be her way of maintaining relaxation throughout the body while playing; I wish I could be so relaxed. Certainly in her Schubert/Liszt transcriptions (try "Liebesbotschaft" among many others) it must be that relaxation that enables her to surmount the technical challenges with such apparent ease that the beauty of the music shines through.
As pv88 mentions, there is little flashy showmanship for showmanship's sake in her playing of these transcriptions and, for me, the real music-making of these performances is what both impresses and touches me the most.
But, hey! Guess what? In searching for the Lisitsa performance of the "Liebesbotschaft" I found this one. I think, in many important ways, it's even better than Lisitsa's performance. Who is this young man, Arseniy Aristov?
I feel a bit guilty if I play the way she does. I feel as if I am faking or even cheating.
In this regard, I give more credit to pianists like Kissin, Kholodenko, Khozyainov etc. who use finger tips, true legato and play all the notes all the way to the key bed. They are at more stress, stretching more and are performing generally with a lot more effort compared to her. Both physically and mentally. They really deserve the appreciation.
I had a teacher, once, who adamantly claimed that he could distinctly hear the difference between notes held by the damper and those created by "finger legato." In some instances this is obvious, in others, less so.
I think the comparison should between notes played legato using the pedal only and notes played legato using fingers and the pedal. Perhaps this is what you meant?
For pedal only legato vs. finger only legato I don't think anyone would say the sound is very different. For pedal plus finger legato vs. pedal only legato there may be some debate but I don't see any logical reason why they should sound different.
Here's a good example of Rubinstein playing the legato opening of Chopin's Waltz in c# minor using pedal only legato(much easier than trying to play 25-14 with finger legato which involves some awkward stretches): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehSKhRburRQ
I feel a bit guilty if I play the way she does. I feel as if I am faking or even cheating.
In this regard, I give more credit to pianists like Kissin, Kholodenko, Khozyainov etc. who use finger tips, true legato and play all the notes all the way to the key bed. They are at more stress, stretching more and are performing generally with a lot more effort compared to her. Both physically and mentally. They really deserve the appreciation.
Simply refuse to play the way she does then, dear man. There could be nothing worse than you feeling guilty.
Good grief, you KNOW how she ALWAYS drags true quality like yourself DOWN to HER meagre level.
I avidly await your announcement of a major record deal and a concert at The Royal Albert Hall.
I had a teacher, once, who adamantly claimed that he could distinctly hear the difference between notes held by the damper and those created by "finger legato." In some instances this is obvious, in others, less so.
I think the comparison should between notes played legato using the pedal only and notes played legato using fingers and the pedal. Perhaps this is what you meant?
