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#2140321 - 08/28/13 04:13 PM Wilde Jagd
Hakki Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3030


How do you play this?
How do you pedal it ?
Or do you pedal it ?
Do you hold the right hand upper notes for their full values ?
What fingering for the right hand upper notes would you use ?
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#2140328 - 08/28/13 04:29 PM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: Hakki]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3847
I did not try to play it but looking at the notes it seems rather obvious

* I would suggest no pedal, how else can you play the LH staccato and get the required pauses? And using pedal would make it much harder to play pp espressivo
* Again, a theoretic answer. In m1 5 for the long note, 3 and 4 for the descending melody line and 1 and 2 for the remaining 2 notes? and 3,4,5 for the top voice and 1,2 for the bottom 2 in the other measures?
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#2140341 - 08/28/13 05:00 PM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: Hakki]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1844
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
you hold the upper notes to make the sound richer, but of course, the melody is still descending from G going down. This part is not one of the trickier in the piece imo

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#2140422 - 08/28/13 08:01 PM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: Hakki]
pianorigami Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/25/13
Posts: 324
Loc: United States
How does Wilde Jagd compare to the other Transcendental Etudes?
I know that Mazeppa, Feux Follets, and Chasse Neige are "harder," but by how much? I understand they all focus on different things, but I'm curious what a pretty advanced, first Transcendental would be for me.
Thanks!
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#2140498 - 08/29/13 12:49 AM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: pianorigami]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6723
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: pianorigami
How does Wilde Jagd compare to the other Transcendental Etudes?
I know that Mazeppa, Feux Follets, and Chasse Neige are "harder," but by how much? I understand they all focus on different things, but I'm curious what a pretty advanced, first Transcendental would be for me.
Thanks!


Take a look at the 9th (Ricordanza).

p.s. I just sent you a PM. smile



Edited by carey (08/29/13 01:09 AM)
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#2140521 - 08/29/13 01:58 AM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: Hakki]
TwoSnowflakes Online   blank
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 1617
You know, I remember that section sounding so pedaled and dolce as a little interlude from the furious pace of the rest of it but now listening to a few versions of it, I could be wrong but I think it's just using fingers in the right hand to add sustain because that bass still has the remnants of the punchier theme, like the "wild chase" is still happening under there, keeping the staccato, and you couldn't really get that effect with regular pedaling, could you?

This piece is way above my level to play, but since I was at least moderately familiar with the piece, I thought I'd see what I could hear from a closer listen. I apologize if my ear isn't good enough to add anything useful to the discussion!
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Currently:
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#2140541 - 08/29/13 03:23 AM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: Hakki]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1844
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Some pedal through this section (Berezovsky if I'm not mistaken) but I agree with the drier approach...which is what Vladimir Ovchinnikov does I think, in his INCREDIBLE set of all transcendentals.

I guess some of the "easier" etudes would be:
paysage, eroica, vision, ricordanza and nr 10 (look how similar the shape of that theme is to the earlier written chopin f minor etude op 10 nr 9 - same key even!).

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#2140649 - 08/29/13 11:15 AM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: Hakki]
Hakki Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3030
Has anybody tried playing it exactly as written without pedal in tempo?
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#2140656 - 08/29/13 11:23 AM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: Hakki]
TwoSnowflakes Online   blank
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 1617
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Has anybody tried playing it exactly as written without pedal in tempo?


*whistles and looks away at nothing in particular*
_________________________
Currently:
Scales. Scales and arpeggios. Scales, arpeggios and chords.
Chopin, Fantaisie-Impromptu Op. post. 66
Scriabin, Three Pieces, Op. 2
Prokofiev, Flute Sonata, Op. 94

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#2140704 - 08/29/13 12:18 PM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: TwoSnowflakes]
Hakki Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3030
Originally Posted By: TwoSnowflakes
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Has anybody tried playing it exactly as written without pedal in tempo?


*whistles and looks away at nothing in particular*


grin grin grin
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Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

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#2140742 - 08/29/13 01:10 PM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: Hakki]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5444
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Has anybody tried playing it exactly as written without pedal in tempo?

Yeah, but I never liked the result. To your other questions:


Quote:
How do you pedal it ?

Often, so it doesn't get muddled. My hand is not large enough to hold out that G with everything else that comes between, so I have to pedal the first note.

Quote:
Do you hold the right hand upper notes for their full values ?

Absolutely not. I can't stretch that far. (And with the pedal, there's no need.) But if you can reach it, it would be an interesting sound. I don't think I've ever heard it performed that way -- holding the notes, with zero pedal.

Quote:
What fingering for the right hand upper notes would you use ?

Whatever's comfortable. For me: 5544 | 535 | 5445 | 5555

Basically I switch from 5 if the hand would get too cramped to keep the 5 going. The 4, for me, is interchangeable in some places.


Originally Posted By: pianorigami
I know that Mazeppa, Feux Follets, and Chasse Neige are "harder," but by how much? I understand they all focus on different things, but I'm curious what a pretty advanced, first Transcendental would be for me.

They're all difficult. If you can play any of the ones listed so far, you can play most of them. Feux Follets, though, is a beast in an entirely different category from the other 11.

My first was No 8, Wilde Jagd. Then 10, Appassionata. Then 4, Mazzeppa. I fiddled through 1, 3, and 11 (which I think are the easiest), but never really "finished" them. Read through 2, 5, 6, 7, and 12. For some reason, was never interested in 9, Ricordanza. Don't know why.
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#2141654 - 08/31/13 03:32 AM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: Derulux]
Hakki Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3030
He seems to have arranged the left hand such that when there is a bigger interval (like the C-Ab in the fourth measure, or the C-Bb in the second line) the staccato accompaniment is not there to allow for a brief pedaling.
But other than that, he seems to have intended for what is written, because otherwise it would be a too easy passage for a transcendental etude.
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#2142062 - 09/01/13 12:52 AM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: Hakki]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5444
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Hakki
He seems to have arranged the left hand such that when there is a bigger interval (like the C-Ab in the fourth measure, or the C-Bb in the second line) the staccato accompaniment is not there to allow for a brief pedaling.
But other than that, he seems to have intended for what is written, because otherwise it would be a too easy passage for a transcendental etude.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the idea that, "it's a transcendental, so it must needs be hard." There are some pretty easy passages in every ├ętude, and some universally easy passages in more than one. I do recognize the staccato marking, but since I can't hold the note values comfortably with my hand size, I attack the hl staccato but the sound lingers some due to pedal.

It would be interesting to hear it played without pedal, but I also think it would diminish the sound somewhat.. Jury's out (I'd have to hear it), but that is my instinctual thought.

Note: I'm typing on a mobile device so my response is a little short handed.. Apologies.
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#2142065 - 09/01/13 01:00 AM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: Hakki]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2177
Loc: Canada
I think Berezovsky stays dry ( remember hearing his crisp LH rhythm..), though I think if you release the pedal often enough it'll sound dry.

I can't play this section though, the rhythmic synchronization between both hands kills me. And the rest of the piece is insane, so I'm out.
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#2142649 - 09/02/13 03:15 AM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: Hakki]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2892
Here is one of the very best performances of this piece you are ever likely to hear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIWEmwuOEJk

It has to be played with fire and abandon!

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#2142698 - 09/02/13 07:33 AM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: pv88]
Okay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/11
Posts: 41
Loc: Paris
Hi,

I don't think you should play it with no pedal. That's not the idea. Personnaly, I change the pedale about twice a bar, except when it becomes too modulatory (i.e. more changes).

The middle section of Wild Jagd is of extremely different character than the rest of the piece. Not the same wildness, the wildness of the beginning morphes into ardor and plain lyricism.
But Liszt still uses the "Jagd" motive (the left hand stacatto motive) for a purpose of compostional unity . Again, this left hand reminder is an 'old' motive in a new landscape. First, it is in the background and second, it is mellower, it sounds more like horns than trumpets/tubas (stacatto but not incisive). Therefore, you can use pedal without restriction (changing it with harmony).

Regarding the distant notes in the theme, all is about keeping the momentum of the sentence. Holding or not the keys is not the issue, the issue is only phrasing and tone.

Hope it helps.


Edited by Okay (09/02/13 07:37 AM)
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#2142757 - 09/02/13 10:58 AM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: Okay]
Hakki Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3030
Thanks all for the replies.

I am somewhat obsessed with the use of pedal recently.
For example, when reading through the Chopin Barcarolle I am trying to play it with the pedal as notated (Ekier Edition)which is almost at a minimum level.

BTW, Okay, your YouTube site is wonderful! Bravo!
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#2143259 - 09/03/13 04:49 AM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: Hakki]
Okay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/11
Posts: 41
Loc: Paris
Thank you vm Hakki, I don't have updated it for a while... and most of the recordings are done with Silent. Hard to find decent conditions actually.

I think that Ekier edition only reports the Chopin original pedalling, which is more or less treated as mandatory. I am not sure that Chopin always noted pedalling rigorousely in all compositions. I don't know for the Barcarolle, which is one of the trickiest !
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#2143313 - 09/03/13 08:22 AM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: Okay]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8247
Originally Posted By: Okay

Holding or not the keys is not the issue, the issue is only phrasing and tone.



Unless the technical issue being addressed (it is an etude, after all) is about holding the keys. It sure looks that way...

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#2143343 - 09/03/13 09:29 AM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: wr]
Okay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/11
Posts: 41
Loc: Paris
I don't think that not holding the key is cheating in these bars. If (like me) you can't hold the C and play the A-flat one octave lower, there is no solution except good phrasing since the left hand is busy with distant chords. I would say that the most important is that you don't hear a jump, and that you are not disturbed when following the leading voice.

Fair enough, this is an edutde, but having to jump here is by no mean like using the thumb in Chopin op10#2 or actually cheating in op10#1 ...


Edited by Okay (09/03/13 09:30 AM)
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#2144480 - 09/05/13 07:06 AM Re: Wilde Jagd [Re: Okay]
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8247
Originally Posted By: Okay
I don't think that not holding the key is cheating in these bars. If (like me) you can't hold the C and play the A-flat one octave lower, there is no solution except good phrasing since the left hand is busy with distant chords. I would say that the most important is that you don't hear a jump, and that you are not disturbed when following the leading voice.

Fair enough, this is an edutde, but having to jump here is by no mean like using the thumb in Chopin op10#2 or actually cheating in op10#1 ...


If you really and truly can't reach, then doing whatever you have to do isn't cheating (as long as you are honest with yourself about what you are doing).

It seems to me that avoiding pedal by taking the A-flat with the left hand while holding the C is pretty feasible, especially since the tempo marking gives all sorts of wiggle room in the passage.

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