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Maybe someone here has an idea if with the analytic followed by the measured tremolos it is fine to have the number included in parentheses or if a pianist would just say "what does this mean" and turn the page?

This isn't intended as a replacement for the analytic in most instances but as a supplement, and of course in some music with rapid changes this might avoid using an analytic altogether and maintain clarity - the number with a one beat tremolo in 32nd notes could be "(12)" instead of "(8)" for instance.

Thanks in advance!

What do you mean by an analytic?

The analytic is a written out presentation of a tremolo, as in the first bar, to give a guide for the remainder.

Some compositions have many of these, as with Liszt's 2nd Legend . . .

M.

I've never come across that term for this. Googling only brings me to this thread. Is it a term your notation program uses?

It is just the word I use

M.

You don't need the number at all. You need to trust that the pianist knows what to do with the measure. It's pretty obvious in this case.

And what's with the tempo decimal again? 87.25? Do you really expect anyone to follow that? I would wager all the gold in Fort Knox that if you listened to 10 different performances of Rachmaninoff's 2nd piano concerto, you'd get 10 different tempos at every single tempo mark in the score. Why are you overly complicating the music in this way? Is there a specific/musical reason?

By using a three-stroke tremolo marking you have asked for 32nds just as clearly as you did in the first bar by writing notes with three beams.

The (32) is unnecessary and confusing. A number in that position would normally be the count of identical repeated bars.

By using a three-stroke tremolo marking you have asked for 32nds just as clearly as you did in the first bar by writing notes with three beams.

The (32) is unnecessary and confusing. A number in that position would normally be the count of identical repeated bars.

I hope no-one dares to perform this music at q=87.24 instead of the authentic q=87.25 :-)

Thanks - with each iteration of the (32) that would make for a quite long composition!

The authentic tempo is q=87.251036, and depending on gyroscopic factors and weather pressure patterns it is + or - .02

Are you sure about this? A few days ago I did a quick review of Alkan's Le Preux, and there are in the score instances of the number "12" for 12 sixteenth note chords in two beats, only the twelves never are parenthesized.

Are the parentheses an issue?

M.

Wombat's correct. It's been a long time since I played music with vamps or extended repeats, but that's typically what it means. I rarely see it over a noted measure. Usually, the measure is written out once, and then a "repeat the previous measure" sign is used.. I'm used to seeing it as %. The number is usually over that measure. And of course, over rests, they usually just put the number without the parentheses.

Some times it means that. But usually the numbers are bold and rather larger.

BTW, in your example, the numbers are barely visible, because they are in the middle of the staves...

Interesting that you say sometimes, Nikolas. I didn't want to say "always" and then end up being wrong -- it appears my choice was pertinent in this case! haha

What else can it mean?

Oh...

I didn't notice your post Derulux! Sorry.

Numbers above a beam, Italized mean a tuplet. Bolded they mean something else.

In this case there's a single beam per bar which makes every single number apply for the whole beam as well as the bar. And it's unnecessary. But since it's Italized and repeated it's not unclear what it is.

Numbers can also be a count (1, 2, 3, etc), or repeated bars as you guys mentioned.

No worries!

And thanks for the answer. Nothing there I haven't seen before, but I think the recollection is going.. haha

And I also agree -- I wouldn't expect to play every measure 32 times. That would be excessive. Or, perhaps, Czerny.

LOL @ the Czerny comment!

Maybe there is a specific score that can be mentioned which has this use of numerals for a repeated bar?

The closest I've seen is a repeat section with between the staves "x3" or whatever number of repeats is desired - and without italics or parentheses.


M.

I wish I could send you to one guaranteed to have it, but the last time I played a score requiring that notation, I was playing lead trumpet in a pit orchestra, and it was 15 years ago.

And I still don't remember if it was in the pit, or in the jazz band I used to play in, that I saw these figures.

I'll see if I can dig something out of the attic that might have this kind of notation...

There isn't any need for that special effort!

Each of the two 64th note tremolos at the end of Thalberg's Fantasie Op. 33 has an "18" under it, but without parentheses and not in italics.

There should be a standard way to indicate the number of note stems in a tremolo of any duration without the number indicating other things about the music . . . but maybe there is no such standard.

I've become focused on this due to inconsistencies as with the 2nd Liszt Legend when an analytic for each section of tremolos is used or not, and when the sections of alternating notes are written out or not - and it seems that if one checks enough recordings unless the number of note stems is specified very firmly performers feel free to play a free tremolo instead which technically it otherwise is.

So with the Liszt Canzone in Annees de Pelerinage every tremolo is written out in full, and everyone plays it that way, I just don't think a composer should have to write out every tremolo in full and use four times as many pages to achieve that consistency of outcome.

(and of course it is a personal contradiction, because I don't care how anyone plays the music, but I at least like the score to reflect how I hear it!)


M.

I think what you may be referring to is the number of lines between the notes in the indicated tremolo. I'm used to reading a single line as 8th notes, a double line as 16th notes, a triple line as 32nd notes, etc. for whatever duration the note values indicate. I believe this is convention, but someone who is more of an expert may want to chime in there if I'm wrong.

Anyone who plays the tremolo free, in those instances, is usually ignoring what's written in the score (for which, whether it's good or bad, we'll have to refer to the Pianist Corner's discussion on sticking to the score ).