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#2141230 - 08/30/13 07:55 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Joel, my point was that not all that long ago you were wholeheartedly on the bandwagon that says "the score is nothing but a guide... do your own thing" and now you're asking about the validity of taking repeats. Why would you care what Beethoven has written in this regard?

Regarding Horowitz/Mozart/Beethoven... I am not saying that his playing is not beautiful (I've not ever heard a time when it wasn't), but that isn't the point.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2141292 - 08/30/13 10:29 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: stores]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: stores
Joel, my point was that not all that long ago you were wholeheartedly on the bandwagon that says "the score is nothing but a guide... do your own thing" and now you're asking about the validity of taking repeats. Why would you care what Beethoven has written in this regard?


Because I'm not aware of all of Beethoven's sonatas and don't know how important any of the repeats may be. For all of the Mozart sonatas I've heard, the repeats don't mean a thing imo, but I don't yet know if the same can be said structurally about the Beethoven sonatas, especially the later ones.

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#2141335 - 08/30/13 11:58 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Nikolas]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19664
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I meant in exams, rather than recitals. Sorry for the mixup!

I thought there was a good chance you meant it in some other way than how he took it (because it's clearly untrue).

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#2141406 - 08/30/13 01:57 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: stores
Joel, my point was that not all that long ago you were wholeheartedly on the bandwagon that says "the score is nothing but a guide... do your own thing" and now you're asking about the validity of taking repeats. Why would you care what Beethoven has written in this regard?


Because I'm not aware of all of Beethoven's sonatas and don't know how important any of the repeats may be. For all of the Mozart sonatas I've heard, the repeats don't mean a thing imo, but I don't yet know if the same can be said structurally about the Beethoven sonatas, especially the later ones.


Well it absolutely IS vital in his later sonatas - usually the structure depends on it! And, if a composer wrote two different endings to a repeat, I think generally a good idea to play it smile
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2141438 - 08/30/13 03:14 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Kuanpiano]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17843
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
[...]
Concerning repeats, I think that when you're performing for people who are not familiar with the work, repeating is a good idea, even when the work is technically weaker without it (I'm thinking of Chopin's 3rd, which I'm hopefully going to perform soon).


My thoughts on repeats in Beethoven - or anywhere else, for that matter :

I always take them on the principle that if I didn't get it right the first time, I may get lucky and play it better - maybe even right - the second! smile

Cheers!
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#2141450 - 08/30/13 03:57 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: BruceD]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4850
Is there any consensus on where to repeat in the first movement of Beethoven's Pathétique (i.e. from the beginning of the Grave or from the Allegro)?

Shades of Chopin's Funeral March Sonata here....(though in Chopin, more and more pianists are gravitating towards repeating from the Grave rather than from the Doppio movimento, as used to be the norm).

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#2141455 - 08/30/13 04:15 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: bennevis]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19664
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Is there any consensus on where to repeat in the first movement of Beethoven's Pathétique (i.e. from the beginning of the Grave or from the Allegro)?

Shades of Chopin's Funeral March Sonata here....

No. grin

(Same issue.)

But I know that people here have views on it.
Mine: Not back to the beginning. (Likewise in the Chopin.)

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#2141456 - 08/30/13 04:15 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: stores
Joel, my point was that not all that long ago you were wholeheartedly on the bandwagon that says "the score is nothing but a guide... do your own thing" and now you're asking about the validity of taking repeats. Why would you care what Beethoven has written in this regard?


Because I'm not aware of all of Beethoven's sonatas and don't know how important any of the repeats may be. For all of the Mozart sonatas I've heard, the repeats don't mean a thing imo, but I don't yet know if the same can be said structurally about the Beethoven sonatas, especially the later ones.


Do you think that Mozart was not as aware of what he was doing as was Beethoven? Why do Mozart's repeats not mean a thing? If you use structure as the basis for your answer, then I'd like to know WHY structurally you feel a repeat is not necessary.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2141460 - 08/30/13 04:38 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: stores]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: stores
Joel, my point was that not all that long ago you were wholeheartedly on the bandwagon that says "the score is nothing but a guide... do your own thing" and now you're asking about the validity of taking repeats. Why would you care what Beethoven has written in this regard?


Because I'm not aware of all of Beethoven's sonatas and don't know how important any of the repeats may be. For all of the Mozart sonatas I've heard, the repeats don't mean a thing imo, but I don't yet know if the same can be said structurally about the Beethoven sonatas, especially the later ones.


Do you think that Mozart was not as aware of what he was doing as was Beethoven? Why do Mozart's repeats not mean a thing? If you use structure as the basis for your answer, then I'd like to know WHY structurally you feel a repeat is not necessary.


I don't know how to explain it. In K330, for example, I don't find any of the repeats necessary. Taking them out doesn't hurt the piece at all imo. All I was really asking is if there were repeats in Beethoven sonatas that are CRUCIAL to the structure, and taking them out would significantly harm the piece. It's my understanding that Beethoven wrote very architecturally.

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#2141466 - 08/30/13 04:54 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3725
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: stores


Do you think that Mozart was not as aware of what he was doing as was Beethoven? Why do Mozart's repeats not mean a thing? If you use structure as the basis for your answer, then I'd like to know WHY structurally you feel a repeat is not necessary.


I don't know how to explain it. In K330, for example, I don't find any of the repeats necessary. Taking them out doesn't hurt the piece at all imo. All I was really asking is if there were repeats in Beethoven sonatas that are CRUCIAL to the structure, and taking them out would significantly harm the piece. It's my understanding that Beethoven wrote very architecturally.


The fact that Mozart and Haydn repeat every single one of their expositions, while (for example) Beethoven chose to repeat his Waldstein exposition, but not his Appassionata exposition: I think this fact speaks volumes. It suggests that Beethoven deliberately decided, work by work, whether to repeat (at least after his early works), whereas Haydn and Mozart did not.

This doesn't necessarily mean you should ignore Mozart's and Haydn's repeats. But it does point to a fundamental difference in these composers' attitudes which I think is relevant.

-Jason
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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#2141568 - 08/30/13 10:17 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: stores
Joel, my point was that not all that long ago you were wholeheartedly on the bandwagon that says "the score is nothing but a guide... do your own thing" and now you're asking about the validity of taking repeats. Why would you care what Beethoven has written in this regard?


Because I'm not aware of all of Beethoven's sonatas and don't know how important any of the repeats may be. For all of the Mozart sonatas I've heard, the repeats don't mean a thing imo, but I don't yet know if the same can be said structurally about the Beethoven sonatas, especially the later ones.


Do you think that Mozart was not as aware of what he was doing as was Beethoven? Why do Mozart's repeats not mean a thing? If you use structure as the basis for your answer, then I'd like to know WHY structurally you feel a repeat is not necessary.


I don't know how to explain it. In K330, for example, I don't find any of the repeats necessary. Taking them out doesn't hurt the piece at all imo. All I was really asking is if there were repeats in Beethoven sonatas that are CRUCIAL to the structure, and taking them out would significantly harm the piece. It's my understanding that Beethoven wrote very architecturally.


So, your answer, basically, is that you don't know why you feel the repeats aren't necessary with Mozart. You just feel that leaving them out doesn't hurt the piece. Fine. If that is your enlightened opinion, then you ought to be able to determine whether, or not, Beethoven's repeats are crucial to his structure(s). How are you able to make such a determination with one composer and not another?
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2141570 - 08/30/13 10:21 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: stores]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3725
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: stores
So, your answer, basically, is that you don't know why you feel the repeats aren't necessary with Mozart. You just feel that leaving them out doesn't hurt the piece. Fine. If that is your enlightened opinion, then you ought to be able to determine whether, or not, Beethoven's repeats are crucial to his structure(s). How are you able to make such a determination with one composer and not another?

Um... I made a determination, if you want to pick on me instead. In the post two above this one, I raised what is (I think) an interesting and relevant point that separates Haydn and Mozart from Beethoven regarding sonata exposition repeats. It doesn't settle the debate, but I think it's interesting.


-J
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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#2141582 - 08/30/13 10:53 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: beet31425]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: stores
So, your answer, basically, is that you don't know why you feel the repeats aren't necessary with Mozart. You just feel that leaving them out doesn't hurt the piece. Fine. If that is your enlightened opinion, then you ought to be able to determine whether, or not, Beethoven's repeats are crucial to his structure(s). How are you able to make such a determination with one composer and not another?

Um... I made a determination, if you want to pick on me instead. In the post two above this one, I raised what is (I think) an interesting and relevant point that separates Haydn and Mozart from Beethoven regarding sonata exposition repeats. It doesn't settle the debate, but I think it's interesting.


-J


I'm not picking on anyone. I simply asked Joel to explain his thinking regarding said repeats. Your point is well taken and while Mozart did ask for repeats with all of his expositions, Haydn did not.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2141583 - 08/30/13 10:54 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: stores]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: stores
Joel, my point was that not all that long ago you were wholeheartedly on the bandwagon that says "the score is nothing but a guide... do your own thing" and now you're asking about the validity of taking repeats. Why would you care what Beethoven has written in this regard?


Because I'm not aware of all of Beethoven's sonatas and don't know how important any of the repeats may be. For all of the Mozart sonatas I've heard, the repeats don't mean a thing imo, but I don't yet know if the same can be said structurally about the Beethoven sonatas, especially the later ones.


Do you think that Mozart was not as aware of what he was doing as was Beethoven? Why do Mozart's repeats not mean a thing? If you use structure as the basis for your answer, then I'd like to know WHY structurally you feel a repeat is not necessary.


I don't know how to explain it. In K330, for example, I don't find any of the repeats necessary. Taking them out doesn't hurt the piece at all imo. All I was really asking is if there were repeats in Beethoven sonatas that are CRUCIAL to the structure, and taking them out would significantly harm the piece. It's my understanding that Beethoven wrote very architecturally.


So, your answer, basically, is that you don't know why you feel the repeats aren't necessary with Mozart. You just feel that leaving them out doesn't hurt the piece. Fine. If that is your enlightened opinion, then you ought to be able to determine whether, or not, Beethoven's repeats are crucial to his structure(s). How are you able to make such a determination with one composer and not another?


I already told you - I don't know his later sonatas. This thread was really just a simple request for knowledge.

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#2141586 - 08/30/13 10:57 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1201
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: JoelW

I don't know how to explain it. In K330, for example, I don't find any of the repeats necessary. Taking them out doesn't hurt the piece at all imo. All I was really asking is if there were repeats in Beethoven sonatas that are CRUCIAL to the structure, and taking them out would significantly harm the piece. It's my understanding that Beethoven wrote very architecturally.


Well, it's a matter of personal taste. However I must say, as someone who has performed that piece for over 30 years, that I find ALL those repeats essential, especially in the andante. If you don't find any use for them, then I must accuse you of lacking an imagination (as much as I like you personally).

Beethoven owned a pen, and ink to go with it. The ink cost money to make, and to buy. Do you really think he wrote all those repeats by hand just for fun, when it cost him money to do so? BTW, the engraver would not have thought of those repeats as superfluous, considering just how much effort it used to take to scrive them accurately and cleanly on a copper plate using a burr, nor would the publisher have been happy to pay for them to do so considering what that all cost at the time, or even today if it were still done by hand.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2141591 - 08/30/13 11:07 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: laguna_greg]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg

Beethoven owned a pen, and ink to go with it. The ink cost money to make, and to buy. Do you really think he wrote all those repeats by hand just for fun, when it cost him money to do so? BTW, the engraver would not have thought of those repeats as superfluous, considering just how much effort it used to take to scrive them accurately and cleanly on a copper plate using a burr, nor would the publisher have been happy to pay for them to do so considering what that all cost at the time, or even today if it were still done by hand.


I don't believe writing a repeat sign requires a whole lot of effort and ink.

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#2141593 - 08/30/13 11:08 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: stores
Joel, my point was that not all that long ago you were wholeheartedly on the bandwagon that says "the score is nothing but a guide... do your own thing" and now you're asking about the validity of taking repeats. Why would you care what Beethoven has written in this regard?


Because I'm not aware of all of Beethoven's sonatas and don't know how important any of the repeats may be. For all of the Mozart sonatas I've heard, the repeats don't mean a thing imo, but I don't yet know if the same can be said structurally about the Beethoven sonatas, especially the later ones.


Do you think that Mozart was not as aware of what he was doing as was Beethoven? Why do Mozart's repeats not mean a thing? If you use structure as the basis for your answer, then I'd like to know WHY structurally you feel a repeat is not necessary.


I don't know how to explain it. In K330, for example, I don't find any of the repeats necessary. Taking them out doesn't hurt the piece at all imo. All I was really asking is if there were repeats in Beethoven sonatas that are CRUCIAL to the structure, and taking them out would significantly harm the piece. It's my understanding that Beethoven wrote very architecturally.


So, your answer, basically, is that you don't know why you feel the repeats aren't necessary with Mozart. You just feel that leaving them out doesn't hurt the piece. Fine. If that is your enlightened opinion, then you ought to be able to determine whether, or not, Beethoven's repeats are crucial to his structure(s). How are you able to make such a determination with one composer and not another?


I already told you; I don't know his later sonatas. This thread was really just a simple request for knowledge.


Yes, but you don't explain WHY Mozart's aren't necessary... only that you don't FEEL their omission takes away from the piece. What we like, when it is different from what is written in the score, is not enough(maybe you ought to watch the Barenboim/Beethoven sonatas masterclass with David Kadouch, if you think I am a purist about the score and it's detail (and I've never heard Barenboim accused of being a purist)... of course, you may believe Barenboim knows nothing about Beethoven). You've stated that you don't know LvB's later sonatas, so, I must ask about the repeats found in the sonatas you DO know (I've no idea to what point you are aware of the 32). Are these necessary and why? To state that a repeat affects the structure (with, or without that repeat) without knowing how, and why, it affects the structure is to not understand the thing entirely. You may think that I'm needling you, but I'm not. I'm trying to get you to dig a little deeper (do the homework) and learn the answers to your questions on your own. To understand something as simple as a repeat and the how and why it affects a work is to improve your performance of that work.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2141599 - 08/30/13 11:26 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Roland The Beagle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 206
Loc: California
If the music is good, I have no problems hearing it again. I WANT to hear it again.

Schiff can take as many repeats as he wants, I'll be still be listening 6 hours later.

If you are going to do a repeat and do nothing with it or worse, muck it up, well maybe then...
_________________________
Danzas Argentinas, Alberto Ginastera
Piano Sonata Hob. XVI: 34 in E Minor, Franz Joseph Haydn
Nocturne, Op. 15 No. 1 in F Major, Frdric Chopin
Prelude, Op. 11 No. 4 in E Minor, Alexander Scriabin
Prelude and Fugue in G Major, Well-Tempered Clavier Vol. 2, Johann Sebastian Bach

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#2141605 - 08/30/13 11:46 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: stores]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: stores
You may think that I'm needling you, but I'm not. I'm trying to get you to dig a little deeper (do the homework) and learn the answers to your questions on your own.


I have nothing against "doing your own homework" but what exactly is the matter with asking Piano World sometimes? How lame would it be if no one ever exchanged knowledge around here..

I'd like to add that I think some pieces DO sound right with the repeat and sound wrong without the repeat. If K545's exposition didn't repeat the main theme would feel cut short. Same goes for Chopin sonata 2 imo. I feel like the repeat helps the structure. Other pieces, I don't feel this way. I don't know.. whatever. Stupid thread.

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#2141609 - 08/31/13 12:03 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2117
Loc: Canada
Just ask yourself a question: what is the point of doing the repeat?

Is there a structural reason?

The composer liked the material so much that he suggests it be played twice?

The composer is too lazy to write the music out again?

The composer wants to make sure the audience has a firm grasp of the material before developing it?

The first repeat colours the exposition so that the second runthrough has a different , meaning?
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op. 109
Brahms - 6 Klavierstucke op. 119
Rachmaninoff - Piano Sonata no.1

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#2141612 - 08/31/13 12:11 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: JoelW
I don't know.. whatever. Stupid thread.


Yeah, that's what I figured.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2141614 - 08/31/13 12:14 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1201
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: JoelW


I don't believe writing a repeat sign requires a whole lot of effort and ink.




You just keep telling yourself that, Young Man...
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2141619 - 08/31/13 12:20 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: laguna_greg]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Originally Posted By: JoelW


I don't believe writing a repeat sign requires a whole lot of effort and ink.




You just keep telling yourself that, Young Man...


Oh p*ss off.

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#2141620 - 08/31/13 12:24 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1201
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Originally Posted By: JoelW


I don't believe writing a repeat sign requires a whole lot of effort and ink.




You just keep telling yourself that, Young Man...


Oh p*ss off.



HEY!!! WATCH IT!!!

In the 18th and 19th Centuries, ink and paper cost money, and cost quite dear.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2141625 - 08/31/13 12:31 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Nikolas]
Ferdinand Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 936
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Nikolas

...
On the question at hand: I'm currently working with a Canadian composer who has a couple of repeats on her works. From the manuscript, she has a phrase like "repeat mandatory" or something like that.

So my very first thing was to eliminate that, thinking that when you have a repeat with 1 and 2 different endings, etc (not sure how it's called in English) then it's pretty obvious that you have to do it. Because you need to play it twice, in order to get a lead/bridge to the next part. This is what the composer wanted. And thus I deleted that phrase.
...

Beethoven did something similar with the Bagatelle op. 126 #1. At the end he wrote "La seconda parte due volte."
Were it not for that explicit instruction I might be tempted to omit the repeat (when playing for myself.)

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#2141638 - 08/31/13 01:36 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Ferdinand]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3725
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: Ferdinand
Originally Posted By: Nikolas

...
On the question at hand: I'm currently working with a Canadian composer who has a couple of repeats on her works. From the manuscript, she has a phrase like "repeat mandatory" or something like that.

So my very first thing was to eliminate that, thinking that when you have a repeat with 1 and 2 different endings, etc (not sure how it's called in English) then it's pretty obvious that you have to do it. Because you need to play it twice, in order to get a lead/bridge to the next part. This is what the composer wanted. And thus I deleted that phrase.
...

Beethoven did something similar with the Bagatelle op. 126 #1. At the end he wrote "La seconda parte due volte."
Were it not for that explicit instruction I might be tempted to omit the repeat (when playing for myself.)

It is similar, but also, I think it's quite different. This is Beethoven saying "repeat the second part even though you didn't repeat the first part." i.e. "this isn't a copy error; I really want only the second part repeated". If both parts had had repeats he wouldn't have given instructions no matter how mandatory he considered them.

The same thing happens (with the same instructions) in the last movement of Appassionata.

-J
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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#2141643 - 08/31/13 02:07 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: stores]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3725
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: stores
...while Mozart did ask for repeats with all of his expositions, Haydn did not.

Cool-- I never knew that. You mean there's a Haydn sonata whose first movement is in sonata form but its exposition isn't repeated? Do you know which one (or the key)?

-J
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

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#2141653 - 08/31/13 03:31 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
patH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 552
Loc: Germany
Short answer: It depends.

That's not very helpful, so I'll give examples.

When I play a complete sonata for a recital, I usually play the repeats. Even the repeat of the third movement of op.27/2 (Moonlight).
In the case of op.10/1 I do it because the second movement does not have any repeats, but is still longer than the first or third movement with repeats. So leaving out the repeats there would give much room to the second movement.

When I play sonatas, or movements, for my own amusement, it depends on my mood and my time available. Example: I sometimes play a personal mix of Beethoven sonatas (op.13 (Pathétique), first movement, op.27/2 (Moonlight), second movement, op.31/2 (Tempest), third movement). When I do so I usually leave out the repeats; even the repeats of the second movement of Moonlight; which makes it really short.

So: Ask yourself what you play, why you play it and whom you play for. Then decide whether you want to include or omit the repeats.
_________________________
Everything is possible, and nothing is sure.
XXXI

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#2141676 - 08/31/13 06:31 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Verbum mirabilis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 203
I played the first movement of k 330 at a student recital. My teacher thought that I could also play something else with the sonata so that I would get to play more. I suggested that I repeat the exposition of the sonata, but my teacher thought I shouldn't, so I ended up not playing any repeats. The slow movement does need at least some of the repeats played (if I remember correctly, Mozart wrote repeats in the first A section, and in the B section, but not in the second A section).

I don't like repeating developments + recaps because of repeating the development. I don't think it is good for the structure. I could see repeating just the recap working, but since no composer (that I'm aware of) wrote sonatas in which only the recaps are repeated, the idea really doesn't work. (There's usually a V-I cadence and a pause between exposition and development + recap, but the development + recap are bridged together)
_________________________
Working on
Beethoven: sonata op. 14 no. 2
Chopin: op. 25 no. 2, op. 10 no. 3, op. 47
Bach: P&F in D minor, book 2

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#2141678 - 08/31/13 06:42 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Kuanpiano]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7767
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Just ask yourself a question: what is the point of doing the repeat?

Is there a structural reason?

The composer liked the material so much that he suggests it be played twice?

The composer is too lazy to write the music out again?

The composer wants to make sure the audience has a firm grasp of the material before developing it?

The first repeat colours the exposition so that the second runthrough has a different , meaning?


It is worthwhile to note, I think, that in the Classical period, many people heard music one time, and that was it. Forever. In that sort of situation, the repeat plays a somewhat different role than it does in ours. It's not necessarily just about structure.

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