Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
Who's Online
145 registered (accordeur, 36251, anotherscott, Alexander Borro, Almaviva, 46 invisible), 1799 Guests and 15 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4
Topic Options
#2141684 - 08/31/13 07:19 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: wr]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5546
I think that in our present time, when repeats are usually literally that - repeats with nothing changed (no extra ornamentation etc), it often makes no sense to take all repeats just because there's a repeat mark there.

It amazes me how some pianists can justify some repeats and not others - like Alfred Brendel and his disciples who refuse to play the repeat of Schubert's D960 1st movement despite that resulting in an incomplete performance of this great work (because some bars are left out). Yet they repeat note-for-note, and every single nuance, some other pieces, with no attempt at giving a fresh insight during the repeat.

Very few performances of Mozart symphonies are played with all repeats - I think there's one recording where the last two symphonies are played thus (one suspects that the recording engineer just spliced the same performance in twice, as the repeats were completely identical), and each symphony lasted over 40 minutes. And in fact, most Beethoven symphony performances don't take all repeats either. The only one that seems mandatory is that in the first movement of the 5th, partly because it's too short without it.

Personally, I believe that in piano music, one should play a repeat if not taking it would result in leaving out some music that the composer wrote (or if the composer specifically indicated that it must be taken), or if one is convinced that the music needs that repeat. Don't play a repeat if you are not convinced about it, and have no idea what to do during the repeat other than repeating exactly what you've already just played.....
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#2141694 - 08/31/13 07:40 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: beet31425]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Do you know which one (or the key)?

-J


Of course, I do. Hob XVI:51, Dmajor.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#2141736 - 08/31/13 09:48 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6084
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
I don't know the ins and outs of all repeats, but I've always been under the impression that the only time I should omit them is if I need to save time in a competition (granted, I only did small, local competitions in high school), and if I am playing in some sort of studio or student recital. But if I have my own recital, or time is not an issue, I will take repeats!

Top
#2141741 - 08/31/13 09:54 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6084
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Although, isn't sonata form sort-of a combination of binary and ternary forms? Having an expo-development-recap format feels ternary, but because the expo repeats AND the development/recap repeats, that hearkens back to binary form, right?

Heck, sonata principle technically does not NEED a development section, right? (Though most do.)

Top
#2141749 - 08/31/13 10:32 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Orange Soda King]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Well, it's what they call a rounded binary. And yeah, it does need a development and all the modulatory structures that go with to fit in that mold. Without it, it's some kind of rondo.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2141808 - 08/31/13 12:32 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: stores]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3836
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Do you know which one (or the key)?

-J


Of course, I do. Hob XVI:51, Dmajor.

Yep... Interesting that it's late Haydn.

By the way, the most tedious repeating I've ever heard is in my otherwise-excellent Mozart symphony recordings by Trevor Pinnock. What he does in the minuets is unforgivable: Not only does he take all the repeats the first time through, he takes them again after the trio! Great music, but I don't have to hear the A-material eight times!!

-J
_________________________
Schubert Immersion: Bb Impromptu; C# minor and Ab Moments Musicaux; accompanying four songs (Suleika II, Rastlose Liebe, Du Liebst Mich Nicht, Im Fruhling); listening intensely to Die Schne Mllerin and Winterreise

Chopin: first Ballade; Mozart: D minor concerto;

Top
#2141830 - 08/31/13 01:28 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: beet31425]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Do you know which one (or the key)?

-J


Of course, I do. Hob XVI:51, Dmajor.

Yep... Interesting that it's late Haydn.

By the way, the most tedious repeating I've ever heard is in my otherwise-excellent Mozart symphony recordings by Trevor Pinnock. What he does in the minuets is unforgivable: Not only does he take all the repeats the first time through, he takes them again after the trio! Great music, but I don't have to hear the A-material eight times!!

-J


Umm, yeah, I'm thinking that might be a bit much! I can't say I've ever heard anyone take the repeats on the second time through.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#2141842 - 08/31/13 02:10 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6084
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
I haven't, either. I though repeats should be omitted after the trio of a minuet and trio form

Top
#2141903 - 08/31/13 05:24 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Orange Soda King]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8934
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
I thought repeats should be omitted after the trio of a minuet and trio form

Yes, I thought that was customary.

Count me in as a BIG stickler for repeats in Beethoven, even the less 'consensus' ones such as in the finale of the 5th.

However, I was rather surprised that Katsaris, in his recording of the Beethoven-Liszt 6th, takes the exposition repeat. I hardly thought that necessary, even if I would be outraged if it were omitted in an orchestral performance.
_________________________
Jason

Top
Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
Christmas Decorations at Piano World Headquarters 2014
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Need help picking a Beethoven Piano Sonata Slow movement
by oaklandraiders76
12/20/14 04:50 PM
What are some great ways to learn the blues?
by brucepiano
12/20/14 04:37 PM
Do you recommend an undercover on upright with Dampp-Chaser?
by thestar
12/20/14 03:56 PM
kawai model SA-8E upright
by EthanHawaii
12/20/14 02:28 PM
Piano Felt
by Modern Conner
12/20/14 01:37 PM
Forum Stats
77374 Members
42 Forums
160020 Topics
2349914 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission