Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Yamaha CP4 Rebate
Yamaha CP4 Rebate
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
88 registered (anotherpianoplayer, Bebe Lim, Batuhan, 20 invisible), 991 Guests and 16 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4
Topic Options
#2141684 - 08/31/13 07:19 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: wr]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5940
I think that in our present time, when repeats are usually literally that - repeats with nothing changed (no extra ornamentation etc), it often makes no sense to take all repeats just because there's a repeat mark there.

It amazes me how some pianists can justify some repeats and not others - like Alfred Brendel and his disciples who refuse to play the repeat of Schubert's D960 1st movement despite that resulting in an incomplete performance of this great work (because some bars are left out). Yet they repeat note-for-note, and every single nuance, some other pieces, with no attempt at giving a fresh insight during the repeat.

Very few performances of Mozart symphonies are played with all repeats - I think there's one recording where the last two symphonies are played thus (one suspects that the recording engineer just spliced the same performance in twice, as the repeats were completely identical), and each symphony lasted over 40 minutes. And in fact, most Beethoven symphony performances don't take all repeats either. The only one that seems mandatory is that in the first movement of the 5th, partly because it's too short without it.

Personally, I believe that in piano music, one should play a repeat if not taking it would result in leaving out some music that the composer wrote (or if the composer specifically indicated that it must be taken), or if one is convinced that the music needs that repeat. Don't play a repeat if you are not convinced about it, and have no idea what to do during the repeat other than repeating exactly what you've already just played.....
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#2141694 - 08/31/13 07:40 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: beet31425]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Do you know which one (or the key)?

-J


Of course, I do. Hob XVI:51, Dmajor.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#2141736 - 08/31/13 09:48 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6159
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
I don't know the ins and outs of all repeats, but I've always been under the impression that the only time I should omit them is if I need to save time in a competition (granted, I only did small, local competitions in high school), and if I am playing in some sort of studio or student recital. But if I have my own recital, or time is not an issue, I will take repeats!

Top
#2141741 - 08/31/13 09:54 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6159
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Although, isn't sonata form sort-of a combination of binary and ternary forms? Having an expo-development-recap format feels ternary, but because the expo repeats AND the development/recap repeats, that hearkens back to binary form, right?

Heck, sonata principle technically does not NEED a development section, right? (Though most do.)

Top
#2141749 - 08/31/13 10:32 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Orange Soda King]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1505
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Well, it's what they call a rounded binary. And yeah, it does need a development and all the modulatory structures that go with to fit in that mold. Without it, it's some kind of rondo.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/greg-dempster/34/325/6b9/ (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2141808 - 08/31/13 12:32 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: stores]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3900
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Do you know which one (or the key)?

-J


Of course, I do. Hob XVI:51, Dmajor.

Yep... Interesting that it's late Haydn.

By the way, the most tedious repeating I've ever heard is in my otherwise-excellent Mozart symphony recordings by Trevor Pinnock. What he does in the minuets is unforgivable: Not only does he take all the repeats the first time through, he takes them again after the trio! Great music, but I don't have to hear the A-material eight times!!

-J
_________________________
Beethoven op.111 first movement -- Liszt 11th Hungarian Rhapsody -- Rachmaninoff B minor Prelude -- Chopin first Ballade

Top
#2141830 - 08/31/13 01:28 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: beet31425]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Do you know which one (or the key)?

-J


Of course, I do. Hob XVI:51, Dmajor.

Yep... Interesting that it's late Haydn.

By the way, the most tedious repeating I've ever heard is in my otherwise-excellent Mozart symphony recordings by Trevor Pinnock. What he does in the minuets is unforgivable: Not only does he take all the repeats the first time through, he takes them again after the trio! Great music, but I don't have to hear the A-material eight times!!

-J


Umm, yeah, I'm thinking that might be a bit much! I can't say I've ever heard anyone take the repeats on the second time through.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#2141842 - 08/31/13 02:10 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6159
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
I haven't, either. I though repeats should be omitted after the trio of a minuet and trio form

Top
#2141903 - 08/31/13 05:24 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Orange Soda King]
argerichfan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 9019
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
I thought repeats should be omitted after the trio of a minuet and trio form

Yes, I thought that was customary.

Count me in as a BIG stickler for repeats in Beethoven, even the less 'consensus' ones such as in the finale of the 5th.

However, I was rather surprised that Katsaris, in his recording of the Beethoven-Liszt 6th, takes the exposition repeat. I hardly thought that necessary, even if I would be outraged if it were omitted in an orchestral performance.
_________________________
Jason

Top
Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
circle of 5ths coaster
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Hal Leonard Teacher VIP
Hal Leonard Teacher VIP Your Source for Piano Music
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Digital Pianos and aging - is older = worse?
by Kaiketsu
Today at 03:46 AM
a recording of four nocturnes by Thomas Tellefsen
by Michael Sayers
Today at 02:32 AM
Notice Hiromi's jazz ballad meter(s) ?
by rintincop
Yesterday at 10:52 PM
Need serious help deciding DGX650 or P115?
by jaketanner
Yesterday at 10:25 PM
Piano pedal extender help
by metcarl
Yesterday at 10:04 PM
What's Hot!!
Trade Regrets: Gary Trafton - Piano Rep
--------------------
Historic Piano Documents
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Forum Stats
78,741 Registered Members
43 Forums
162,928 Topics
2,391,402 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2015 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission