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#2140982 - 08/29/13 09:41 PM Repeats in Beethoven
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4760
Loc: USA
How important are repeats in Beethoven's sonatas? Did he construct his sonatas in a way that the repeats are crucial, or can they simply be taken out like much of Mozart's? I'm aware that the answer is probably different depending on the sonata but in this case I would be asking specifically about op. 2/1.

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#2140983 - 08/29/13 09:45 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Kuanpiano Offline
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Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2114
Loc: Canada
Always take them. Always, all of them. Never ignore them.

I don't know about Mozart's repeats, but it's a bit questionable to take them out. Is that the standard performing practice these days?

Concerning repeats, I think that when you're performing for people who are not familiar with the work, repeating is a good idea, even when the work is technically weaker without it (I'm thinking of Chopin's 3rd, which I'm hopefully going to perform soon).
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op. 109
Brahms - 6 Klavierstucke op. 119
Rachmaninoff - Piano Sonata no.1

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#2140984 - 08/29/13 09:46 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Kuanpiano]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7501
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
...when the work is technically weaker without it (I'm thinking of Chopin's 3rd...

You think the Chopin 3rd is weaker without the repeat? I violently disagree.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2140985 - 08/29/13 09:47 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Kuanpiano Offline
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Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2114
Loc: Canada
It's up in the air for a lot of people. However, I'm planning performing it with the repeat.
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op. 109
Brahms - 6 Klavierstucke op. 119
Rachmaninoff - Piano Sonata no.1

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#2140986 - 08/29/13 09:53 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
pianorigami Online   sleepy
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Registered: 07/25/13
Posts: 287
Loc: United States
For a lot of competitions, they encourage NOT to take repeats, or even strictly forbid them. If you're preparing it for a competition, there's no point in practicing with the repeat; however, if you're learning it for a recital, or something similar where the audience appreciates the music, by all means, take it!
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Currently working on:
1) Chopin Etudes Op. 10; Scherzo Op. 54
2) Beethoven Sonata Op. 53
3) Prokofiev Sonata Op. 83
4) Bach Prelude and Fugue in f# minor, WTC II
5) Grieg Concerto Op. 16, 1st Movement

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#2140990 - 08/29/13 10:00 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Kuanpiano]
JoelW Offline
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Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4760
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Always take them. Always, all of them. Never ignore them.

I don't know about Mozart's repeats, but it's a bit questionable to take them out. Is that the standard performing practice these days?


Don't really know. I heard K330 by Uchida first and the discovered Horowitz's and was a little stunned at first when he didn't play ANY of the repeats but after a couple more listens I started to strongly agree with Horowitz's decision. Now every time I hear the regular version I think the repeats sound so forced. I also feel that way about the Beethoven sonata. Certain repeats after what should be the ending cadence feel so forced and displeasing to my ear. Hey - I can always take out the repeats at home for my pleasure. grin

Congratulations on playing the Chopin sonata BTW.

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#2140992 - 08/29/13 10:01 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7221
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Read up on "sonata form."
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Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2140994 - 08/29/13 10:05 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4760
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
...when the work is technically weaker without it (I'm thinking of Chopin's 3rd...

You think the Chopin 3rd is weaker without the repeat? I violently disagree.


Agreed. It drags on with the repeat imo. Don't get me wrong, I love the exposition, but when it's been played through once, I want to hear the development section!

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#2141003 - 08/29/13 10:30 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
stores Offline
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Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Horowitz, Joel, is NOT the pianist you want for your model with Mozart, or Beethoven. His Beethoven, especially, was not good. That said, I'm quite surprised that you're even asking about whether it is proper, or not, to take repeats.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2141006 - 08/29/13 10:34 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
...when the work is technically weaker without it (I'm thinking of Chopin's 3rd...

You think the Chopin 3rd is weaker without the repeat? I violently disagree.
Agreed. It drags on with the repeat imo. Don't get me wrong, I love the exposition, but when it's been played through once, I want to hear the development section!

Agree extremely on all counts.

That exposition is one of my very very favorite things in music. It's one of my very favorite things of anything. But repeating it ____s up the piece. smile

I agree with taking all repeats in Beethoven. I mean, I'm not sure if I agree with it in an "on-principle" kind of way; it's just that I can't think of one where it seems to make sense not to take it.


Edited by Mark_C (08/29/13 10:37 PM)
Edit Reason: Adding the part about Beethoven

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#2141007 - 08/29/13 10:36 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Mark_C]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
...when the work is technically weaker without it (I'm thinking of Chopin's 3rd...

You think the Chopin 3rd is weaker without the repeat? I violently disagree.
Agreed. It drags on with the repeat imo. Don't get me wrong, I love the exposition, but when it's been played through once, I want to hear the development section!

Agree extremely on all counts.

That exposition is one of my very very favorite things in music. It's one of my very favorite things of anything. But repeating it ____s up the piece. smile


Do you think the repeat ____s up the Schubert Bflat, or 959? Just curious...
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2141009 - 08/29/13 10:38 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2114
Loc: Canada
Love the repeat in D960! You go through the exposition the second time wondering what on earth is going to happen in the development...

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with D959...


Edited by Kuanpiano (08/29/13 10:38 PM)
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op. 109
Brahms - 6 Klavierstucke op. 119
Rachmaninoff - Piano Sonata no.1

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#2141010 - 08/29/13 10:41 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: stores]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: stores
Do you think the repeat ____s up the Schubert Bflat, or 959? Just curious...

First of all please see what I added to the above post. (It might blunt whatever outrage you might feel about what I might say about the Schubert.) grin

edit: I wrote this next thing mistakenly thinking that 959 was the B-flat. (I realized it when I saw Kuan's post.) So, this next thing is about the B-flat:

I'm not as clear on the Schubert. I personally would never take it when performing it publicly (not that I've done it -- just talking hypothetically) smile ....but when playing it for myself I think I'd ALWAYS want to take it.

In hearing performances by others, I'm generally very glad that they don't; I don't think I've ever been to a performance where anyone did. But with certain few performers, I would hope that they would.


So....about 959, which was what you asked about:

Again, I wouldn't put it nearly as strongly as I did about the Chopin. But I do prefer it without the repeat, far more so than with 960.

So, for what it's worth, I guess there's sort of a "hierarchy" for me (all IMO, all subjective, and all subject to laughter and mocking, perhaps deserved): ha

Beethoven: Don't even think of not taking repeats
Schubert D. 960: I love the repeat, wouldn't want to do without it when playing it for myself but wouldn't 'inflict' it on any audience
Schubert D. 959: Please omit the repeat but I won't drop dead if you take it
Chopin Sonata #3: I'll drop dead if you take it. smile


Edited by Mark_C (08/29/13 10:48 PM)

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#2141012 - 08/29/13 10:56 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: stores]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4760
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: stores
Horowitz, Joel, is NOT the pianist you want for your model with Mozart, or Beethoven. His Beethoven, especially, was not good. That said, I'm quite surprised that you're even asking about whether it is proper, or not, to take repeats.


That's your opinion. I love Horowitz's Mozart. To me, it is the best. smile

And I really don't think it's a question to be surprised at. If major competitions ban repeats, why should I not question the validity of certain repeats on the notion that they may be a result of pure convention?


Edited by JoelW (08/29/13 11:07 PM)
Edit Reason: added the bottom paragraph

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#2141014 - 08/29/13 11:00 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4760
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
That exposition is one of my very very favorite things in music. It's one of my very favorite things of anything. But repeating it ____s up the piece. smile


Do you think the repeat was just a conventional thing?

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#2141015 - 08/29/13 11:03 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Basic question. Why do composers write repeats in sonata form structures? I understand why in da capo structures, especially in the baroque era, that allow for enhanced ornamentaion in the repeat, and in most cases are needed to get you back to the original key.

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#2141020 - 08/29/13 11:15 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
That exposition [i.e. 1st mvt of Chopin Sonata #3] is one of my very very favorite things in music. It's one of my very favorite things of anything. But repeating it ____s up the piece. smile
Do you think the repeat was just a conventional thing?

Yes.

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#2141025 - 08/29/13 11:29 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: stores
Horowitz, Joel, is NOT the pianist you want for your model with Mozart, or Beethoven. His Beethoven, especially, was not good. That said, I'm quite surprised that you're even asking about whether it is proper, or not, to take repeats.


That's your opinion. I love Horowitz's Mozart. To me, it is the best. smile

And I really don't think it's a question to be surprised at. If major competitions ban repeats, why should I not question the validity of certain repeats on the notion that they may be a result of pure convention?


It's not really just an opinion... his Mozart, and Beethoven, are terrible. The fact that you like his Mozart brings me back to the point about you even questioning the validity of repeats, which, obviously, you missed the point on.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2141029 - 08/29/13 11:34 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: stores]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Speaking as a huge Horowitz fan, I agree that he's not particularly a model for Mozart or Beethoven, but this:

Originally Posted By: stores
....It's not really just an opinion... his Mozart, and Beethoven, are terrible.

....is, at best, just an opinion, and more likely I'd say, pretty extreme.

Quote:
The fact that you like his Mozart brings me back to the point about you even questioning the validity of repeats, which, obviously, you missed the point on.

I'm with you on the repeats, but I'm not ashamed to say that I'm with Joel in loving Horowitz's Mozart.

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#2141031 - 08/29/13 11:39 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: stores]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4760
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: stores
Horowitz, Joel, is NOT the pianist you want for your model with Mozart, or Beethoven. His Beethoven, especially, was not good. That said, I'm quite surprised that you're even asking about whether it is proper, or not, to take repeats.


That's your opinion. I love Horowitz's Mozart. To me, it is the best. smile

And I really don't think it's a question to be surprised at. If major competitions ban repeats, why should I not question the validity of certain repeats on the notion that they may be a result of pure convention?


It's not really just an opinion
... his Mozart, and Beethoven, are terrible.


Wrong.

Quote:
The fact that you like his Mozart brings me back to the point about you even questioning the validity of repeats, which, obviously, you missed the point on.


Did you even make a point? Honestly, I even looked back at your post to make sure before I wrote this. I don't see a point, all I see is you stating that Horowitz is not the model to use for Mozart and Beethoven. You didn't provide any real substance behind that statement. Please inform me of what you mean. And please, don't tell me to go do my homework as a cop-out! wink

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#2141034 - 08/29/13 11:43 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7501
Loc: New York City
I'm not familiar with Horowitz's Mozart, but I don't imagine he'd play it particularly well.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2141044 - 08/30/13 12:00 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Polyphonist]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I'm not familiar with Horowitz's Mozart, but I don't imagine he'd play it particularly well.

Yeah, it's just "terrible." grin

Maybe take a taste of this:


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#2141046 - 08/30/13 12:01 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4760
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I'm not familiar with Horowitz's Mozart, but I don't imagine he'd play it particularly well.

Yeah, it's just "terrible." grin

Maybe take a taste of this:



The worst!!

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#2141048 - 08/30/13 12:07 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7501
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I'm not familiar with Horowitz's Mozart, but I don't imagine he'd play it particularly well.

Yeah, it's just "terrible." grin

Maybe take a taste of this:



The worst!!

Not the worst, but I don't like it. One thing I do like, though, is how he brings out the bass at 2:29.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2141054 - 08/30/13 12:18 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: JoelW
The worst!!

Yes indeed -- it stinks!!! ha

This really is related to the discussion on another thread (which I avoided like the plague) about what "musical" means.

To me, anyone who says flat-out something like that Horowitz's Mozart is terrible is just showing a rigid and limited view of music. What it means is that Horowitz isn't following that person's strong views on what Mozart playing should be, and (I guess) on how scores should be observed -- and that the person isn't allowing for different meaningful ways.

I can see all kinds of things that Horowitz isn't doing, and I can see ways in which he violates certain notions of what is correct. But I also see much that is extremely wonderful, and I think it's GREAT -- despite what's not there. I also happen to like it. smile

I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy and greatly admire Mozart performances that 'purists' would hold up as better models. I'm not sure I'd like any of them better than Horowitz's, and I suspect that some of them would put me to sleep.

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#2141058 - 08/30/13 12:22 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7501
Loc: New York City
Even if I abandon all my views about "what Mozart playing should be," and look at this performance completely abstractly, it is still not to my taste. I wouldn't like it as Bach, I wouldn't like it as Beethoven, and I don't like it as Mozart. (Of course, this is all relative.)
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2141060 - 08/30/13 12:22 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Mark_C]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7501
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy and greatly admire Mozart performances that 'purists' would hold up as better models.

Hmm - did we sneak in a change from _________________ to "purists?" grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2141061 - 08/30/13 12:23 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Polyphonist]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Even if I abandon all my views about "what Mozart playing should be," and look at this performance completely abstractly, it is still not to my taste....

NO PROBLEM!!!

It would only be a problem if you also saw fit to say that it's no good.

Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Hmm - did we sneak in a change....

Yes.
I made a mistake in including any personal reference, and I took it out.
I'd appreciate if you take it out of your post too.

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#2141064 - 08/30/13 12:25 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Mark_C]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7501
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Even if I abandon all my views about "what Mozart playing should be," and look at this performance completely abstractly, it is still not to my taste....

NO PROBLEM!!!

It would only be a problem if you also saw fit to say that it's no good.

Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Hmm - did we sneak in a change....

Yes.
I made a mistake in including any personal reference, and I took it out.
I'd appreciate if you take it out of your post too.


You're still editing a mile a minute. ha
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2141069 - 08/30/13 12:28 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Mark_C]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7501
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Even if I abandon all my views about "what Mozart playing should be," and look at this performance completely abstractly, it is still not to my taste....

NO PROBLEM!!!

It would only be a problem if you also saw fit to say that it's no good.

Although I tend to agree with stores on most subjects, I think what he often misses is the fact that there is a large spectrum between no good and excellent. So either he deeply admires something, or it's awful. Usually, it's awful. grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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