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#2141684 - 08/31/13 07:19 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: wr]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4362
I think that in our present time, when repeats are usually literally that - repeats with nothing changed (no extra ornamentation etc), it often makes no sense to take all repeats just because there's a repeat mark there.

It amazes me how some pianists can justify some repeats and not others - like Alfred Brendel and his disciples who refuse to play the repeat of Schubert's D960 1st movement despite that resulting in an incomplete performance of this great work (because some bars are left out). Yet they repeat note-for-note, and every single nuance, some other pieces, with no attempt at giving a fresh insight during the repeat.

Very few performances of Mozart symphonies are played with all repeats - I think there's one recording where the last two symphonies are played thus (one suspects that the recording engineer just spliced the same performance in twice, as the repeats were completely identical), and each symphony lasted over 40 minutes. And in fact, most Beethoven symphony performances don't take all repeats either. The only one that seems mandatory is that in the first movement of the 5th, partly because it's too short without it.

Personally, I believe that in piano music, one should play a repeat if not taking it would result in leaving out some music that the composer wrote (or if the composer specifically indicated that it must be taken), or if one is convinced that the music needs that repeat. Don't play a repeat if you are not convinced about it, and have no idea what to do during the repeat other than repeating exactly what you've already just played.....

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#2141694 - 08/31/13 07:40 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: beet31425]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Do you know which one (or the key)?

-J


Of course, I do. Hob XVI:51, Dmajor.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2141736 - 08/31/13 09:48 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6035
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
I don't know the ins and outs of all repeats, but I've always been under the impression that the only time I should omit them is if I need to save time in a competition (granted, I only did small, local competitions in high school), and if I am playing in some sort of studio or student recital. But if I have my own recital, or time is not an issue, I will take repeats!

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#2141741 - 08/31/13 09:54 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6035
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Although, isn't sonata form sort-of a combination of binary and ternary forms? Having an expo-development-recap format feels ternary, but because the expo repeats AND the development/recap repeats, that hearkens back to binary form, right?

Heck, sonata principle technically does not NEED a development section, right? (Though most do.)

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#2141749 - 08/31/13 10:32 AM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Orange Soda King]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1166
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Well, it's what they call a rounded binary. And yeah, it does need a development and all the modulatory structures that go with to fit in that mold. Without it, it's some kind of rondo.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

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#2141808 - 08/31/13 12:32 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: stores]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3617
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Do you know which one (or the key)?

-J


Of course, I do. Hob XVI:51, Dmajor.

Yep... Interesting that it's late Haydn.

By the way, the most tedious repeating I've ever heard is in my otherwise-excellent Mozart symphony recordings by Trevor Pinnock. What he does in the minuets is unforgivable: Not only does he take all the repeats the first time through, he takes them again after the trio! Great music, but I don't have to hear the A-material eight times!!

-J
_________________________
Schoenberg op.10+k, Beethoven op.100+k for k=9
Schubert D.899/4, Chopin op.25/2

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#2141830 - 08/31/13 01:28 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: beet31425]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Do you know which one (or the key)?

-J


Of course, I do. Hob XVI:51, Dmajor.

Yep... Interesting that it's late Haydn.

By the way, the most tedious repeating I've ever heard is in my otherwise-excellent Mozart symphony recordings by Trevor Pinnock. What he does in the minuets is unforgivable: Not only does he take all the repeats the first time through, he takes them again after the trio! Great music, but I don't have to hear the A-material eight times!!

-J


Umm, yeah, I'm thinking that might be a bit much! I can't say I've ever heard anyone take the repeats on the second time through.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2141842 - 08/31/13 02:10 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: JoelW]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6035
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
I haven't, either. I though repeats should be omitted after the trio of a minuet and trio form

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#2141903 - 08/31/13 05:24 PM Re: Repeats in Beethoven [Re: Orange Soda King]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8695
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
I thought repeats should be omitted after the trio of a minuet and trio form

Yes, I thought that was customary.

Count me in as a BIG stickler for repeats in Beethoven, even the less 'consensus' ones such as in the finale of the 5th.

However, I was rather surprised that Katsaris, in his recording of the Beethoven-Liszt 6th, takes the exposition repeat. I hardly thought that necessary, even if I would be outraged if it were omitted in an orchestral performance.
_________________________
Jason

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