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#2148812 - 09/12/13 02:43 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: JFP]
Tritium Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/13
Posts: 179
Loc: Western MA, USA
Originally Posted By: JFP


Yes, and isn't that exactly the price that was predicted ? So where's the 'Yikes' surprise coming from ?



Sorry, JFP...I didn't realize that this was the price/market segment Yamaha was targeting. My bad.

Disregard my previous "yikes" statement.

So, this new Yamaha DP will be more targeting the consumers who might also be looking at the Roland FP-80 and the Kawai ES-7 / VPC-1.


Edited by Tritium (09/12/13 02:47 PM)

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#2148814 - 09/12/13 02:44 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73]
dje31 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 218
Looks like the same form factor as the CP33 for both the 4 / 40.

From a production / MFG perspective, using the same box / platform for multiple models keeps costs down.


Edited by dje31 (09/12/13 02:56 PM)
_________________________
Yamaha CP33 | Roland XP-30

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#2148817 - 09/12/13 02:51 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Tritium]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3042
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Tritium
So, this new Yamaha DP will be more targeting the consumers who might also be looking at the Roland FP-80 and the Kawai ES-7 / VPC-1.

Possibly, but it's really more for those looking at dedicated stage pianos, such as the RD-700NX, MP6, Nord Piano 2.

If you're looking for a less expensive alternative, the new CP40 is the scaled down version (around $1700, IIRC).
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#2148840 - 09/12/13 03:24 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
I really think the revelation here is that someone from Yamaha is prepared to open up a little bit and give those of us interested in the technical aspects something meaningful to digest. So thanks very much Athan - I hope you stick around and give us more of the same because you are very welcome indeed!

And Athan, if you haven't already realised there is a groundswell of opinion among those of us that come here that would really like Yamaha (and most of the others) to look at reducing or preferably eliminating the looping during the decay phase of the acoustic piano sounds. Right here and now it is the single biggest advance that Yamaha could bring to the table to improve their piano voices. I have the CP1 and the action, playability and tone is all there - in fact it is a downright beautiful thing on many levels - but the looping does the sound no favours at all. Please tell the boffins!

Best wishes,

Steve
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#2148846 - 09/12/13 03:31 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3042
Loc: Oregon
And the stretching!
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#2148848 - 09/12/13 03:34 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: voxpops]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2393
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: voxpops
And the stretching!


Mmm. Yes but I just don't think that has the same impact as looping. Stretching is not ideal but if done very well in normal playing I just don't see it as such a big issue. Just my thought on the matter!
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#2148870 - 09/12/13 03:58 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
+1 on the looping. At least on the CFIII it's too obvious for my ears (just my personal judgement). CFX I haven't tried yet.

88 key sampling would be welcome, but stretching doesn't have to be audible or annoying by definition. So if a choice has to be made between the two; get rid of looping once and for all !

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#2148891 - 09/12/13 04:24 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: voxpops]
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 577
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: voxpops
And the stretching!


And the use of filtered hard strikes for soft strikes!

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#2148893 - 09/12/13 04:31 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73]
david_ka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/07/13
Posts: 93
Loc: Sweden
For me the Yamaha cp4 is very interesting. I´ve been lookin at RD700NX but think it´s
to big and heavy. If the Yamaha sounds and feels good I´ll probably get one. Unless Roland comes with a new lighter RD700.

Anybody knows when it comes to europe?
_________________________
www.poetstation.com

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#2148908 - 09/12/13 04:42 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73]
Pete14 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/13
Posts: 232
Perhaps they should simply use stretching for the extreme low/high registers; basically the notes which are rarely played. As for looping, I'd prefer some form of physical modeling to handle the decay; however, I doubt that YAMAHA will be using Physical modeling anytime near the future (pertaining to acoustic pianos).

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#2148910 - 09/12/13 04:43 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73]
dje31 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 218
So, looking through the specs pages, it doesn't seem like the 40 has that many less voices than the 4 ( 297 vs 433 ). So I wonder if there's a true, stripped-down ( fewer / no synth / pad voices, drums, etc.), $1k-ish US CP33 / P155 successor / equivalent in the wings ( yeah, I know the 50 was supposed to be the 33's successor ), or is that the P105's niche?

For that matter, is there going to be a new flagship beyond the CP1?

Yeah, I know, patience and all ( never been one of my virtues ), given that it's just now officially official for at least the 4 / 40.
_________________________
Yamaha CP33 | Roland XP-30

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#2148913 - 09/12/13 04:50 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73]
Pete14 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/13
Posts: 232
It seems like the CP4 will take over as the flagship ("best stage piano"). The CP1's status will be officially downgraded to "2nd best piano" ever built by YOMOHO; I'm sorry, I meant YAMAHA!

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#2148921 - 09/12/13 04:58 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Edit: nothing about the CFX demo - I clicked the wrong part and thought video was only example featuring the CFX sample. My mistake...

Question:
although it's not listed in the specs, it looks as if the CP4 has an auxiliary audio input (mini-jack). Is that correct ? And is it a 'straight through' design, or is it digitized (DAC) and has some kind of volume control and/or audio routing features ?


Edited by JFP (09/12/13 05:39 PM)

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#2148949 - 09/12/13 05:38 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3042
Loc: Oregon
Leaving aside JFP's very valid observations concerning the sound treatment on the video, the CP4 sounds like a VERY nice DP. I've just been listening to the demos, and so far haven't found anything to dislike or equivocate about.
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#2148951 - 09/12/13 05:40 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: voxpops]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: voxpops
Leaving aside JFP's very valid observations concerning the sound treatment on the video, the CP4 sounds like a VERY nice DP. I've just been listening to the demos, and so far haven't found anything to dislike or equivocate about.


You crossed me; just changed post - I mistakenly clicked the video thinking it was the audio CFX demo. Mix-up...CFX is fine indeed.

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#2148956 - 09/12/13 05:48 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3042
Loc: Oregon
Actually, I'm going to amend my previous take slightly, too. Listen to the CFIIIS (#2) demo at around 42-47 secs in. It sounds like a classic example of stretching, where adjacent notes have the exact same metallic ring. Still, I didn't expect Yamaha to move to 88-note sampling, so I'm not unduly disappointed if what I'm noticing is due to stretching - but I do prefer each note to have its own character.
_________________________
Occasional author and inveterate ivory tickler:
http://www.amazon.com/author/richardspanswick

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#2148996 - 09/12/13 07:04 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73]
Athan Billias Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/07/13
Posts: 10
"Others are more DSP oriented and unique to SCM systems, for example there are mic models so you can change the character of the piano by changing which mic model is applied. Again this is modeling a component of the sound, but not necessarily modeling the whole sound itself. "

Hi,

The Spectral Component Modeling post was written at about 5:30 am and there is one detail that should be cleared up. The SCM does not contain mic modeling, it contains microphone preamp modeling. We modeled the mic preamps (one with 2 band EQ and one with 3 band EQ) that were used in the recording sessions. So though you can't change the microphone, you can change the mic pre settings which gives you a good deal of control. We'll edit the original post and makr it as edited so people know.
_________________________
Director of Marketing
Pro Audio and Combo Division
Yamaha Corporation of America

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#2149032 - 09/12/13 08:34 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9052
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
The audio demos sound great, however some of them sound familiar...from the CP1?

I'm assuming there's some stock MIDI files used to demo the sounds on a range of Yamaha instruments.

Good videos though, I was a good move to mention the re-forestation project in Indonesia too.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2149068 - 09/12/13 09:56 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Kawai James]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
The audio demos sound great, however some of them sound familiar...from the CP1?



Well apart from the CFX the patches are the same.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2149072 - 09/12/13 10:06 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: EssBrace]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: voxpops
And the stretching!


Mmm. Yes but I just don't think that has the same impact as looping. Stretching is not ideal but if done very well in normal playing I just don't see it as such a big issue. Just my thought on the matter!



With Flash going for ~$0.50 USD / GB, ARM processors a dime a dozen, and you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a free (as in beer) RTOS, it puzzles me why this type of zero sum game discussion still occurs almost daily here in beautiful sunny PW. It's almost as if DPs were left high and dry by the last wave of technology. What passes for the latest thing is controlling creaky >10 year old electronics from your spanking new i-whatever.

Pianoteq (or Ivory, or etc.) in a box, how long must we wait?


Edited by dewster (09/12/13 10:27 PM)
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The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#2149076 - 09/12/13 10:17 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Dr Popper]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9052
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
The audio demos sound great, however some of them sound familiar...from the CP1?



Well apart from the CFX the patches are the same.


I thought they were 'based on' the sounds from the previous generation?

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2149077 - 09/12/13 10:19 PM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: dewster]
Tritium Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/19/13
Posts: 179
Loc: Western MA, USA
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Originally Posted By: voxpops
And the stretching!


Mmm. Yes but I just don't think that has the same impact as looping. Stretching is not ideal but if done very well in normal playing I just don't see it as such a big issue. Just my thought on the matter!





Owl Stretching Time?

Sorry, couldn't resist another Monty Python reference.

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#2149183 - 09/13/13 03:34 AM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9052
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Athan, may I ask you to clarify the keyboard action used in the CP4, and differences with that used by the CLP-470/CLP-480, please?

According to the CP4 specifications:

Originally Posted By: CP4 action
88-key Natural Wood Graded Hammer (NW-GH) keyboard with Synthetic Ivory Keytops (with real-wood white keys)


However according to the CLP-470 specifications:

Originally Posted By: CLP-470/CLP-480 action
NW (Natural Wood (wood is used for the white keys)) keyboard with synthetic ivory keytops


So is NW-GH the same as NW?

The name suggests that it's actually the existing GH action (i.e. 2-sensor) but with wooden sides?

Thank you in advance. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2149220 - 09/13/13 06:12 AM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 74
Loc: Uberaba, Minas Gerais, Brazil
Kawai James... If you look well in Features you will find:

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/stagepianos/cpstage/cp4_stage/

- The perfect piano touch and response

Wooden keys
The CP4 STAGE features wooden keys with synthetic ivory keytops and a Graded Hammer action similar to that of a grand piano (the keys in the lower register are heavier and the keys in the upper register are lighter).

Yamaha's innovative GH3 keyboard has three sensors: in addition to two sensors to detect keystroke strength, it includes Yamaha’s original Damper Sensor. This enables you to use advanced techniques such as playing the same note repeatedly with perfect articulation, previously only possible on a grand piano, which blends sounds without the use of the damper pedal. You also enjoy the keyboard touch of a grand piano, including keys with weight gradations – heavy in the lower end and lighter in the higher end. The NW (Natural Wood) keyboard, with the same structure as the GH3 keyboard, and synthetic ivory keytops also provide the feel of a grand piano, even the fingertip sensations.
_________________________
"But its got a crap keyboard action Dave ... no amount of great sounds help that."
Dr. Popper

Piano Student at State Conservatory Renato Frateschi - Uberaba - Minas Gerais - Brazil

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#2149223 - 09/13/13 06:33 AM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: dewster]
Rhodie73 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 139
Loc: New York
Well, despite the technical short comings (stretching and looping) I preordered a CP4 from Sweetwater yesterday. My thing is, after owning both a CP5 and CP50, the CP4 seems to improve on both of those boards deficiencies while still being lighter with more giggable dimensions. Plus it's actually a couple of hundred bucks cheaper, I think Yamaha has a winner here. I will be sure to put in a review when I receive mine next month.
_________________________
Rhodes Stage 73 (MKII), Roland RD-800, Roland RD-64, Yamaha P-255

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#2149229 - 09/13/13 06:48 AM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 74
Loc: Uberaba, Minas Gerais, Brazil
Originally Posted By: Rhodie73
Well, despite the technical short comings (stretching and looping) I preordered a CP4 from Sweetwater yesterday. My thing is, after owning both a CP5 and CP50, the CP4 seems to improve on both of those boards deficiencies while still being lighter with more giggable dimensions. Plus it's actually a couple of hundred bucks cheaper, I think Yamaha has a winner here. I will be sure to put in a review when I receive mine next month.


Too bad PWF doesn't have a thumbs up.
_________________________
"But its got a crap keyboard action Dave ... no amount of great sounds help that."
Dr. Popper

Piano Student at State Conservatory Renato Frateschi - Uberaba - Minas Gerais - Brazil

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#2149258 - 09/13/13 07:39 AM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Pedro_Henrique]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Pedro_Henrique


Too bad PWF doesn't have a thumbs up.


Why do you say that ? I think most people here really like the fact that there is (finally) a new stage piano , that is lightweight (!) , allround, professional and has a bunch of good sounds. The issues about looping and stretching are nitpicking and hardly important at all for gigging, which is what this board is made for.

The critical notes are actually more a general remark about the fact that anno 2013 almost all hardware brands still use looped and sometimes stretched sounds. And with each new board people hope that they finally catch up with their software counterparts. Which again and again they don't ; hardware development is still on the recycling path. And that is a bit disappointing to some of us who would like to see the best piano sound in a hardware box - equal in quality to software piano's. In 2013 that is still a dream, or only approached in the most expensive boards like V-Grand, Physispiano, Kronos (but that still has many sampling artifacts)...

So the CP4 is very welcome and a nice board. But since where a forum , we discuss all details including the once we'd like to see improved or included. Perhaps when manufacturers pay attention, the next board.....;-)

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#2149318 - 09/13/13 09:41 AM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4340
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
So is NW-GH the same as NW?

From Pedro's quote it seems to be a three sensor NW that is now graded. Perhaps the grading is what we normally encounter on DPs, so slight a differential between top and bottom you almost don't notice it (i.e. mostly a marketing "check the box" feature). But still, I wonder why they are messing with what many believe was a success here? (FWIW, I personally see NO grading as an improvement DPs are able to bring to the table.)

The prosecution would like to enter exhibit A from a CP1 into the record:



It takes a certain amount of chutzpah to call glued on popsicle sticks "wooden keys" particularly when the black keys are likely 100% plastic, but whatever.

Smell the wood!

[EDIT] Sorry everyone, I was wrong, the CP1 white keys seem to be constructed not of wooden side veneer on a plastic key but of a solid piece of wood sandwiched between the plastic key top strip and a plastic mechanism strip on the bottom. Link.



Edited by dewster (09/21/13 11:52 AM)
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#2149324 - 09/13/13 09:58 AM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73]
xorbe Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 570
Loc: Mt View, CA
Originally Posted By: Rhodie73
Well, despite the technical short comings (stretching and looping) I preordered a CP4 from Sweetwater yesterday. My thing is, after owning both a CP5 and CP50, the CP4 seems to improve on both of those boards deficiencies while still being lighter with more giggable dimensions. Plus it's actually a couple of hundred bucks cheaper, I think Yamaha has a winner here. I will be sure to put in a review when I receive mine next month.

Eager to read your thoughts on the matter after you get it, basically about NW vs graded NW, and any subtle action difference in detail, and the new CFX piano sample. Presently I prefer the brighter CFIII over the S6 in the CP5, so where does CFX fall, etc.

Originally Posted By: JFP
Originally Posted By: Pedro_Henrique
Too bad PWF doesn't have a thumbs up.
Why do you say that ?

I think he just means the BBS feature where we can +/- or like/dislike or thank posts without actually posting.

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#2149340 - 09/13/13 10:38 AM Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: xorbe]
Pedro_Henrique Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 74
Loc: Uberaba, Minas Gerais, Brazil
Originally Posted By: xorbe
Originally Posted By: Rhodie73
Well, despite the technical short comings (stretching and looping) I preordered a CP4 from Sweetwater yesterday. My thing is, after owning both a CP5 and CP50, the CP4 seems to improve on both of those boards deficiencies while still being lighter with more giggable dimensions. Plus it's actually a couple of hundred bucks cheaper, I think Yamaha has a winner here. I will be sure to put in a review when I receive mine next month.

Eager to read your thoughts on the matter after you get it, basically about NW vs graded NW, and any subtle action difference in detail, and the new CFX piano sample. Presently I prefer the brighter CFIII over the S6 in the CP5, so where does CFX fall, etc.

Originally Posted By: JFP
Originally Posted By: Pedro_Henrique
Too bad PWF doesn't have a thumbs up.
Why do you say that ?

I think he just means the BBS feature where we can +/- or like/dislike or thank posts without actually posting.


Exactly. I would like some posts instead of quoting to say i agree. :P
_________________________
"But its got a crap keyboard action Dave ... no amount of great sounds help that."
Dr. Popper

Piano Student at State Conservatory Renato Frateschi - Uberaba - Minas Gerais - Brazil

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