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That's a bunch of information and experiments. It leads a bit away from specifically "how do I determine the key of a piece." However, getting familiar with the perfect fifths (not the whole circle of fifths and all the key signatures, just some of the connections above) will be helpful for the next chunk of things to look at when determining the key of a piece, after the simple rule I gave earlier.

The next step will be to look at the chords used in a piece. But I will hold off giving more information until you've had a chance to experiment with the explorations I've given already.

Take as much time as you need. As you can see there are a bunch of interconnected ideas here and it was hard for me to stop at just one post. It's OK if all the parts and interconnections don't fall into place yet -- really the only thing needed before progressing to looking at chords for key, is to look at the pieces I gave earlier and check the key of them using the simple rule I gave.

Also please ask any questions you want, or make any observations, while experimenting with and playing with this material. As you can tell, I love talking about this stuff, and thinking of ways to help explore it and help make it make sense.

changed mind

I don't recall your exact words but it had something to do with associating notes as seen on the staff "directly" with the keys on the keyboard without any other thought process in between. The key word here is "directly". Dot to Key direct association.

What I had been doing was learning all the names of the notes on the staff and I would have to think of the note names first before going to the right key to play. Doing that created additional paths with wrong associations. It was an extra thought process that was indirect and slower. It's just not the way to be doing it.

Ah. I learned that from Gary D. and keystring. I'm glad it was so helpful.

I learned to read music differently (with Every Good Boy Does Fine), and one reason I'm usually unable to offer reading advice is because I don't know what alchemy happened in my mind and fingers so that I have a quick three way connection of note on staff, key on keyboard, and note name.

One advantage that you had, for me to give that advice (channeling keystring and Gary), is that you have Gary's keyboard chart to use in forming that direct staff-to-piano-key association.

Hello all my teaching helpers, just an update to say, I am in the process of re reading all the posts in this thread as revision.
I really wanted to get to grips with some basic theory and whilst I am making really good progress, I am so much more relaxed about it all.

I really am taking my time, that seems to by my learning style (slow) and as there is so much to learn being methodical and using the info here in the best way I can.
I have two more songs in Alfred's, then I intend to revise everything from the beginning because I feel I have bypassed lots without understanding certain basic theory concepts, since which I have been helped with here. So my revision should be speedy.
Then I'll be back with a whole load of new questions!!
The whole thing is so much more enjoyable.

Shey, this is fantastic to hear!

Slow is fast.

Shey, either before or as you begin your revision of Alfred's, there's some more ideas about chords I'd like to point out. This will go towards explaining the "I IV V" chords that Alfred's talks about, and also the "7" chords such as G7, C7, etc. It will also tie in with how to tell what key a piece is in, and will look at how to tell the key for the pieces I skipped over in my earlier list.

Just give a shout when you're ready. No rush. As keystring so wisely says, "slow is fast."

Definitely will do that thanks.

Hello, due to arrival of new baby to the family over this last week, I have spent very little time at the piano. However, I am back at it today.
Just one question, PS88 what is "Gary's keyboard chart", relating note to key? You mention it above, sounds very useful, I think I could benefit from it, if it is what I think it is.
I have not yet finished working through your posts and will carry on, making notes of any queries as I go along.
At first I thoughtI was supposed to be learning / memorising the circle of 5ths, it was intimidating, but again helpful advice here told me to use it for reference only. Now it's not scary at all, just another pattern.
Back to it.

Hi Shey, Congratulations on the new baby! How wonderful!

Regarding Gary's keyboard chart: Gary D. is a teacher who posts on PW (note the "." in his name if you PM him). He uses a chart with his students which sits behind the piano keys. It shows a piano staff from three ledger lines below the bass clef to three ledger lines above the treble clef, with a note on every line and space that is positioned behind the key it goes with. He teaches his students to use the chart to go from their music to the key on the piano (and only then say the name of the note: find and play the note, then name it, to build the physical connection as primary, not the translation to a letter name). As students learn the location of the notes on the keyboard relative to the staff, they experiment with taking the chart away temporarily. Eventually they know all the notes and don't need the chart any more.

What I love about this idea is it allows music that covers a wide range to be introduced immediately. No restriction to five finger positions and a laborious memorization of letter names and locations before you can hear the range of the piano. It would seem like the chart might be a crutch that students never get free of, but this turns out not to be the case.

Unrelated to the above, I wanted to go back to seomthing I left out earlier when talking about key and aural identification:

Another aural component to this is that some people can also hear which note in the piece the piece seems to return to or however around. This is the tonic note: the letter name of the key. It's often the last note of the melody, and can be heard elsewhere in the piece as well. If you can hear this, then you can match that note on the piano aurally and know the letter name of the key. I can't do this in any reliable way (well, I can match the last note to the piano, but I don't have any sense that this is an important note, more important than any other note, nor that it has been heard in any important way earlier in the piece). Experiment with some tunes and find out what you hear.

Hello, PS88, et al, I have been studying basic music theory which I found on Pianostreet. It's a pdf and is really suitable for me. I am still on Amazing Grace, the last in Alfred's book 1, and finding it quite challenging. At first I didn't like it at all, but now it is coming together, it is really nice.
I have been practicing scales and theory, so have not learned any new songs. However, I can feel things progressing really well.
I would really welcome some more advice on chords please, maybe go right back to the building of them. Help with triads and also how can I get familiar with chords?
Amazing Grace has notes not seen before and is my last piece in my book, I intend to review the whole of book 1 before deciding where to go next. Some have said book 2 is not so good.
I have grasped the idea of chord inversions, and some understanding of key signatures, and would like more help with chord structure.
I did myself a scheme of work and some session plans to take me up to the Christmas period, but I need your help, input and advice. Thank you.

I would appreciate any advice on this too.

?

Hi Shey, good to hear from you!

Can you post a link to the pianostreet music theory PDF?

What are the measures in Amazing Grace that have new notes? Have you been able to figure them out?

Talking about chord structure is a large and broad topic! Can you say a bit more about what you want to know about? I know, that might be a hard question since if you knew the words for it already you might already know the answer too. I have an idea of where I'd start if someone said "tell me about chords," so I'll start there (after I take some time to reflect on this some more). Others might start in other places so I hope they'll jump in with their interpretation of how to answer your question.

"Chord structure" is a very vague term that one could talk for hours about without ever coming close to the information the asker wanted. If we are to answer this question, we are going to need more specificity.

Oh, I'd like more specificity if possible, but I'm willing to throw some things out there and see if it's in the ballpark or not, and even if it's not, I'll have gotten a chance to share some things that I think are interesting, important, or useful, or maybe all three, to at least somebody reading the thread. Also you never know which bit of looking at something will trigger a connection and exploration that goes beyond the single specific question someone might ask.

And even if Shey gets more specific, I'm probably going to be looking for ways to sneak in other ideas anyway.

Hello, thanks for your reply. Unfortunately, I don't know how to provide a link for the PDF, not technical at all. It's called, "Basic Music Theory, How to Read, Write and Understand Written Music" by Jonathan Harnum.
I found it on Student's corner, on Pianostreet, the thread is called (a music theory's study group), the PDF is on the first post there under 'the resources'. If you could locate it and post it here I think it would be very useful.

With regard to Amazing Grace, treble clef measures 19 and 23 have D sharp,E and G, bunched up together. I know how they are supposed to sound, but just don't know how to play them together with the ripple sound it should have. To practice the piece I have just been playing the E and G, so as not to stutter too much, but hope you can describe how they are played.

Oh apologies, and also to Polyphonist regarding the question on chord structure. I wasn't very specific at all. So I will re-phrase and ask, 'tell me about chords'. I have some basic idea about them, but how would you begin to discuss how they work to someone who is on a learning curve and needing step by step guidance? Please throw some ideas at me as a beginner, and I will tell you if I understand that particular concept or not.
Thank you so much for all your help.

You may recall that I tend not to be well-enough versed in beginner friendly terminology or concepts. Let me know how far this goes...

Two notes together form an interval. Three notes together form a chord.

Western Harmony (music using equal temperament instead of pure/just intonation from the harmonic series) is built on thirds.

A triad is a three note chord using:
1st note: the root note
2nd note: a third above the root
3rd note: a fifth above the root.

The interval between the 1st and 2nd notes of a chord can be a major third (four semitones) or a minor third (three semitones).

The interval between the 2nd and 3rd notes of a chord can be a major third (four semitones) or a minor third (three semitones).

As a corollary, the interval between the 1st and 3rd notes of a chord can be a diminished fifth (six semitones), a perfect fifth (seven semitones) or an augmented fifth (eight semitones).

In naming a chord we identify the two intervals from the root. They are the third (interval between 1st and 2nd notes of the chord) and the fifth (interval between 1st and 3rd notes of the chord).

If the fifth is diminished, six semitones, it follows that there are two stacked minor thirds, each of three semitones and the chord is called diminished.

If the fifth is perfect, seven semitones, it follows that there are two different thirds, one major and one minor and the chord is named after the third (the interval between the 1st and 2nd notes of the chord).

[So major triads are a major third with a minor third stacked on top and Minor Triads are a minor third with a major third stacked on top.]

If the fifth is augmented, eight semitones, it follows that there are two stacked major thirds, each of four semitones and the chord is called augmented.
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The primary chords are the major triads of a scale. Let's stick with major scales for now.

A triad can be built on any degree of a scale. There are, then, seven triads in every key, one for each degree of the scale.

The tonic triad (I in Roman Numerals) is built on the tonic note (1st degree of the scale) and adds the mediant (3rd degree) and the dominant (5th degree). Because of the structure of a major scale (TTSTTTS) the tonic triad will always be major.

[It also follows that all the chords based on a particular degree of the scale will be of the same major/minor quality in all keys using the major scale.]

The dominant triad (V in Roman Numerals) is built on the dominant note (5th degree of the scale) as its root. Its 2nd note is a third above. In the major scale that will be the 7th degree of the scale and will always be a major third in a major scale. The 3rd note is a fifth above the root. In a major scale that will always be a perfect fifth and will be the 2nd degree of the underlying scale (the notes wrap round at the octave so 2nd is same degree as 9th). In C major the dominant chord is G major.

The subdominant triad (IV in Roman Numerals) is built on the subdominant note (4th degree of the scale) as its root. Its 2nd note is a third above. In the major scale that will be the 6th degree of the scale and will always be a major third in a major scale. The 3rd note is a fifth above the root. In a major scale that will always be a perfect fifth and will be the tonic of the underlying scale - that's why it's called the subdominant, it's a fifth below the tonic. In C major the subdominant chord is F major.

The three primary triads cover all the notes of the tonic scale and can therefore harmonise (coarsely or otherwise) with every note of a diatonic melody.

Hence the three chord trick and the simplicity of folk/pop harmony. If, for example, you're trying to find the chords to a particular song in C major and the melody note on the beat is C you may harmonise that note with any chord with a C in it, here C major (C-E-G) or F major (F-A-C). If the melody note is D you would choose G major (G-B-D). With most pop/folk songs the first melody note of each bar is usually strong enough to dictate what chord to use through the bar. Sometimes the chord changes on the third beat (in 4/4 time). I've seldom had to change chord on every beat in a bar but it does happen.
(Note that you may not get the actual chord used but you should get a passable harmony.)

CDEFGAB notes in the C major scale
C-E-G__ notes in the C major chord (C-E-G)
-D__G-B notes in the G major chord (G-B-D not in order here)
C__F-A- notes in the F major chord (F-A-C again not in order)

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Picking alternate notes from the scale beginning on the 2nd, 3rd and 6th degrees of the scale you should be able to find the three minor chords and on the 7th degree a diminished one.

I have been admonished for my terminology!

In a note to a beginner it looked odd that there are three notes in a chord; the first is the root, the second is a third and the third is a fifth!

I chose something that maybe dealt with it better for me. Perhaps I could've used better terminology.

Maybe someone else can try!

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I am reminded of the rules of cricket: As explained to a foreigner...

"You have two sides, one out in the field and one in.

"Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out.

"When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side that's been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out.

"Sometimes you get men still in and not out.

"When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in.

"There are two men called umpires who stay out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out.

"When both sides have been in and all the men have been out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game."
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Hope I haven't confused you, Shey!

Richard, I wrote you a PM as a heads up and it was not as an "admonishment".

My heads up was about this part:


In a C major triad, in root position, the notes are referred to as:
G - 5th note
E - 3rd note
C - Root (= 1st note).

You actually wrote it that way when you wrote "root, 3rd note" etc. and I didn't notice the 1st, 2nd, 3rd.

But later my attention was caught when you wrote about augmented and diminished chords, and talked about raising "3". Well, to me, a raised 3 would give me C E# G (essentially CFG respelled) and a lowered 3 would give me C Eb G (Cm). I thought you had a typo, and had intended to write "raising 5" but mistyped the 5 as 3.

In an augmented chord, 5 is raised:
C E G#
It has an uneasy, unsettled sound. The distance between C and E is a major 3, and also between E and G#. It is a fascinating chord.

If seeing "3" being referred to rather than 5 confused me, it might confuse someone else and that is why I mentioned it.

I've been thinking it's about time to start introducing those terms, in any case, Richard. Loved the description of cricket. England's counterpart to "who's on first?"

Shey, I'm still reflecting; I haven't forgotten the thread. I have a more philosophical orientation to chords I want to give, and then get into the technical aspects.

Maybe you could say something about what you already know about chords?