Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Did you expect this?

Not saying it is good or bad, rather a statement of fact.

The problem is that there's no way to know. From the room, to the mic placement, to the audio capture, to the post-audio sweetening, there are dozens of places where your audio engineer could step in and tweak things. My impression from the commercial was "boy, they're putting a lot of room resonance into that". In modern media--and my partner does this sort of thing--there is literally nothing professionally prepared that doesn't undergo post-recording shaping. In a commercial touting the sound quality of digitals versus acoustics? Literally zero chance that the sound hasn't been quadruple-checked to try to convey the appropriate narrative. (It'd be great to have an off-the-record chat with one of the jaded audio engineers. They're always jaded.)

I'm by no means a digital opponent, just more of a skeptic about this commercial. stumbler's ABF Recital performance of Villa-Lobos on his high end Roland *really* surprised me in a good way, but equally clearly many of the other ABF recordings were done on digitals. OTOH, a directly-recorded decent digital is a clearly better experience than a sour acoustic in a sub-par environment or with poor recording equipment or placement.

There's another issue around touch and responsiveness that is probably even more subjective (and likely only to afflict more accomplished players).

So on that note, of the acoustic advocates here, what do folks think of the very high-end Roland that's actually including a faux-piano action inside?

I teach only at my studio with a grand piano. I have only two students that I travel to their house with a lot of extra fee and both of them has grand piano at home.

First student has been with me a long time. Second student just sign up last month. When father called me on the phone, he mention that he wanted someone travel to his house. I ask if he has grand piano at home and also explain that I would only teach on grand piano because it is my standard.

Fortunately he said he has grand piano at home, so, I end up enroll my second traveling student on the top of my office students......

So, Tim, your guess is not correct at least in my eyes.

To me, it's not a question of "What's wrong" rather a question of what can musical players do on a piano that cannot be done on a keyboard? Take staccato for instance. There are several difference staccato touches, each having a defining sound. A staccato performed with a stiff finger, bouncing from the wrist, will have a more percussive sound for a number of reasons. A staccato performed with a finger swipe will have a softer, mushier sound. Just two examples. I don't know how well a keyboard can emulate or differentiate this. For one thing, a piano's soundboard picks up the crash of the key against the key bed, even with a felt washer in place, and adds a percussive sound to the tone of the string. I'm not sure how a keyboard would be able to differentiate between the two touches.

True but the focus is not how good the digital sounds, you can adjust some subtle resonate, but you can not twist a staccato to a legato.

The question is : is it a valid learning/practising instrument? Can one develop essential piano skills on a digital to a reasonable level without jeopardizing the students future development?

We know it can be used to teach note reading, rhythm etc, but can it be used to development techniques like Staccato, Legato, Crescendo, Decrescendo, Marcato, Tenuto, Maestoso at least to some degree?

The reason I ask is, it seems, in the promotion video, a lot of techniques and expressions are somehow demonstrated.

I learned on a grand from the beginning. I would not practice or teach on anything other than a grand, and neither would the vast majority of my colleagues.

Then you should be very grateful for the circumstances of your life which allowed you this. Many many people cannot and will never be able to afford a grand piano, however much they want it. Talking objectively about the capabilities of digital pianos and the action of grand pianos is one thing. Being dismissive of those who do not have your advantages is another.

I certainly would, if it was my only option!

Thank you currawong!

And once again, No one is here to compare a $800 digital to a $20,000+ grand, We know there is a 25+ times difference (at least money wise). If a grand is the only viable option, then you can cut the piano student's population by 90%, or more. Maybe this is actually what you want but that is another story.

The question is how it compares to a used upright that many parents would get for their 7 year old, as many holds the following belief:

And my opinion has not changed; namely, that ANY acoustic is better than a digital as long as the action works. It may not sound as good immediately, but at least you will be able to learn actual piano technique, instead of fake piano technique.

How do you know? You have not played anything other than a grand.....

It would be interesting to know if the pianists developed their performance skills and technique on an acoustic or a non.

Until recently there was a piano in my mother's basement. It had not been tuned for 20 years and was moved twice over a long distance. A3 stuck and you had to pry it up with two fingers. E5 sounded like EFb. The keys were sluggish and the action uneven. The sustain pedal made a noise as if a midget with a huge sledgehammer was trapped in a metal room - but after all that noise, it didn't actually "sustain".

My digital piano has properly weighted keys, none of which get stuck, and all of which are in tune. The action is even. When I use the sustain pedal, it does what it should, and is minus the midget.

You are not going to tell me that learning on the first is better than the second. Among actual piano technique, I can learn to pedal on a digital where the pedal works, but not on an acoustic where the pedal has turned into a drum.

I don't need to hear or see the video to know what the limitation of that style of keyboard is.

Look, this is a technical question that requires a rather long and detailed answer. I hope you'll be satisfied with the short version I have time to write now.

1- No electronic keyboard design, even the latest hybrid versions, completely or accurately mimic the construction, response, or timing of the grand piano action.

2- The existing switching assemblies used in most keyboard actions throws off the timing of the vertical keystroke in the player. Also, the switching assemblies are not standardized. It's different on every make of keyboard.

3- Since this last is the case, it trains the player to mis-time the keystroke in every instrument they play. This single factor ruins their ability to develop a full range of touch on any instrument.

4- This kind of keystroke mis-timing is also responsible for a good deal of injury in keyboard players. I've worked with a number of injured electronic keyboard player in rehab, trying to train them out of the keystroke timing electronic keyboards trained them to have.

5- Even though the sampling has gotten better, and the keyboard "piano sound" has a number of dynamic shadings on the more expensive instruments, there is no way that such an action will allow the player to influence the tone color produced. That's why the Casio Mozart sounds rather monochromatic in the ad, compared to the grand piano. If you didn't hear that, I suggest you go back and listen a few more times because the difference is very obvious.

I'm very happy they got a couple of skilled players to come in and play some Mozart. That was a very smart marketing strategy, as it will persuade a lot of people.

However, paid endorsements are worthless. I do wish they would have consulted any performing arts medicine clinic at any teaching university hospital before they went about trying to assess their claims. Those clinics are filled with jazz and pop keyboard players who got injured because of the limitations of the electronic keyboard action.

So, that's why I don't think this is as wise or desirable option for for anyone, let alone students. Claims to the contrary are not only worthless, they are misleading.

That's not a fair comparison. Why don't you compare it with a keyboard where only half the tone generators are working, one of the pedals stick, five keys are missing, one speaker out, etc. etc. How well would the piano compare if it were properly serviced?

John, I didn't write a comparison. I responded to a statement that ANY acoustic was better than a digital. I did practise on that thing.

Every argument is presuming a pristine, wonderful acoustic piano. I've also read that no technique at all can be learned with a digital. I'm exaggerating the other way around - but there are in fact people playing things like that.

How much would it cost to have it serviced? I have no idea since I don't have an acoustic piano.

Well, he did caveat it with the statement, "as long as the action works." If keys aren't working, then the action doesn't work, as most of us consider the keys as a major part of the action.

Exactly. Keystring, you used an example which I did not allow for with that caveat.


Except that there is no action, since it's a digital, remember?

My original position still stands: I think there are differences between the instruments, and the skills that the pianist will develop will be geared to the capabilities and limitations of the instrument. Here is one perceived difference in skill development -- I have noticed a significant difference in my daughter's development in her control of expression, and how she tries to blend the left and right hand. When she first moved from the digital to the acoustic, her playing was very flat compared to where her skills are today. Some of it, is simply the result of a lot of playing time on the piano, but I think quite a bit of it due to the difference in the instrument she is using. However, I cannot prove this claim in any way.

Thanks Greg, this is very interesting and informative.

I would like to understand this. Do you mean there is a latency between the keystroke and production of the sound, that the manufactures are unable to eliminate? And different broads have different latencies. When playing between broad, they will be confused by the different latencies and possibly hurt themselves?

Were there any quantified measurements of the latency?

I noticed you said most, does that mean there are some broads don't have this latency issue?