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#2143255 - 09/03/13 04:32 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: jazzyclassical]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: jazzyclassical

I just wanted to say that you prob should get the teachers guide for Book 1 at the very least. There are some very detailed lesson plans in that book. Also, I did try Music Moves for a little while with preschoolers and it was nice although I didn't have the same effect with older children (school age and up). I have put the program aside for now but I would be very open to attending a seminar to better understand the "big picture". I think the reason Music Moves was a bit difficult for me was it was as if i was learning a whole new language and culture and then expected to teach it like someone with expertise! It was very daunting. On the other I am very comfortable teaching piano in much the same way that I was taught. That doesn't mean I think one way is better than the other. i just have much more expertise in a different approach. That said, I would still most likely use keyboard games A with preschoolers coupled with First Steps in Music as a music readiness course for 4 year olds.


Good to know, I feel very much the same way about it being a foreign language.

Does the teacher's guide help with the big picture? I have already spent a lot of money on this and if I spend more I want to do it wisely. One thing I have noticed is that the programme seems extremely complicated - and I do feel rather like someone is trying to micromanage me. In my experience, 'lesson plans' are normally further micro-management.

I've also been thinking it might be wise to invest in one of Gordon's books, Learning Sequences in Music.

For now, I just can't spend more money.

I thought instead I'd go through the books slowly, giving myself a couple of days at each lesson, listening to the patterns, etc as a student is supposed to do.

Nice to know about the First Steps in Music. What is most useful there in individual lessons? The curriculum book, or the CD's?
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#2143256 - 09/03/13 04:39 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: keystring]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: keystring
(Ours were contrived to be clear).



Ours are also contrived. smile It's all in how the examiner plays them. The same can be said for distinguishing 2 beats per bar or 4. It's all in how it's played. And I feel the examiners don't mark too harshly if the candidate give the 'wrong' answer but with good reason.

So, from listening to the Music Moves, and from Kreisler's definition of 'macrobeat', my conclusion is that what they call 'duple time' is what we call 'simple time' and what they call 'triple time' is what we call 'compound time'. This is all in what we call duple or quadruple metre.

What I have yet to discover is do they cover what we call 'triple metre'?

(By 'we' I mean the generally accepted UK-ABRSM based definitions).

So it's fine to go:

Du Du Du Du Du Du Du Du

But can you go

Du Du Du Du Du Du Du Du Du

?


Edited by ten left thumbs (09/03/13 04:39 AM)
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#2143261 - 09/03/13 04:53 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: AZNpiano]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4812
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys

6/8 has 3 accents at the 1st and 4th beat, while 3/4 has accents on every beat. Is that what you meant?


er, you mean 2 accents?


My bad, I mean 2, sorry.

But that't the problem. What you are calling "accents" changes with tempo. 6/8 can be 6 beats to the measure, or 2. And this system is not about how many accents to a notated bar. It only considers accents.

Thus 2 measures of 3/8 may well sound no different from 1 measure of 6/8, and so on.

That is the point. Notation makes us think we hear things we do not hear. Our ears are influenced by how the music looks. For someone who is trying to learn how to notate what he/she hears, that can be deadly.

Great point, Gary!

On old CM tests, there was this audio question that asks students if the music is in 3/4 time or 6/8 time. I just told my students to mark 3/4, and if they got it wrong, go argue--because all 6/8 music can be rewritten in 3/4, but not all 3/4 music can be rewritten in 6/8. The question is tragically flawed.

Here's another one of those ambiguous ones:

http://youtu.be/OaiUtwYU9S8

Yes. Great example. I have known this piece for as long as I can remember back, but I just never bothered to look at the score. I assumed there was a trick here, so I simply listened to it my head first.

What I heard was a simple waltz in E, with the RH coming on 1 and 3 of the first of two measures, then 2 in the next. I would challenge anyone to guess Ravel's notation. I would even say that the notation is likely to cause something rather unnatural and artificial to happen.

Interesting, I think, is that Ravel could have notated his idea in 6/8, nothing else changed except the beaming. Or he might have beamed the LH in threes but the RH in twos. And if he had written the same thing 50 years later, with the exact same sound in mind, again he might have notated it differently.

Often composers modified there notational style later in life.

Both Argerich's and Michaelangeli's famous recordings just sound like the playing of an elegant waltz.

The point, I think, is that we can intellectually conceive of rhythms that no one will hear as we do. It is the playing that dictates what we hear.
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#2143263 - 09/03/13 04:59 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: keystring]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4812
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: keystring

When it comes to those exam questions I'm wondering whether they are like the RCM ones at all. In those, the sample music usually has a clear duple beat for 6/8 (two beats per measure), and clear triple beat for 3/4. The advice that I got for theory exams was to listen to the music in my head and use what the music does for the answer. If there is a clear duple beat, then it can't be written in 3/4. Would the examples in the CM exam be ambiguous? (Ours were contrived to be clear).

But it can. You simply write something all in 3/4, and it is fairly fast. But every two bars could be written as one of 6/4 or 6/8. So those theory exams are simply wrong. Which is not surprising.

All you have to do is to find a Chopin Waltz, then see if it has an even number of bars in every section that could also be thought of in pairs. Take the middle section of the "Minute Waltz". It could easily have been written in 6/8. It is all quarters. The sound would be no different.

It is much like the idea of 4/4 vs. 2/2. In theory one has four beats, the other 2, but you will find MANY exceptions.
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#2143264 - 09/03/13 05:00 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: AZNpiano]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4812
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: keystring
When it comes to those exam questions I'm wondering whether they are like the RCM ones at all. In those, the sample music usually has a clear duple beat for 6/8 (two beats per measure), and clear triple beat for 3/4. The advice that I got for theory exams was to listen to the music in my head and use what the music does for the answer. If there is a clear duple beat, then it can't be written in 3/4. Would the examples in the CM exam be ambiguous? (Ours were contrived to be clear).

Unfortunately, I can't tell you--we don't have access to old audio questions. But the question itself is flawed. Even if the 6/8 audio example were the most contrived Burgmuller tarantella, you can still re-write it in 3/4 time.

Here's another example: "Take Me Out to the Ball Game." It can be in either 3/4 or 6/8. It's completely an interpretation.

Exactly. wink
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#2143466 - 09/03/13 02:13 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzyclassical Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 154
Loc: California
I think the teachers guide for book one is the best at presenting how the material should be taught. So it gives a good idea of the "big picture" in some sense. I still think it would be great to attend a seminar however, it's the next best thing. Gordon's learning sequences in music book provides the philosophy behind it.
I get what you are saying about the micromanaging aspect, but that would be helpful to teachers new to the method. I think you certainly can use it as a guide, I definitely did with the preschool groups I taught. What I did was I used Feierabends first steps in music for the songs and activities in my program and used music moves as the piano component for 4 year olds.
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#2143499 - 09/03/13 03:35 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Good to know, jc. I will get the teacher guide in the next round.

Would you say the Feierabends be good for individual lessons, you think?
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#2143561 - 09/03/13 06:03 PM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: ten left thumbs]
jazzyclassical Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 154
Loc: California
Groups.
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#2143823 - 09/04/13 02:42 AM Re: anyone use music moves for piano? [Re: jazzyclassical]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: jazzyclassical
Groups.


thanks
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