Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2144009 - 09/04/13 12:10 PM Clair de Lune fingering
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2325
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Picking up from the FOYD thread:

Originally Posted By: griffin2417
Originally Posted By: aTallGuyNH
Griffin... your way of writing them is correct IMHO. Mine were backwards, as noted in my last post. Please feel free to flip them for sake of comparison.


Great! Here are my fingerings. I'm sending them as I originally wrote them. Let me know if you have any problems understanding them. I'm glad to have this conversation about Clair smile .

#19
5-531 5-521-5

#20
521x4 531-521

#21
5-531-5 531-5

#22
521x4 531 521

#23
5-531-5 521-5

#24
531x6 521 531

As far as pedaling goes, I agree with Richard. It will all depend on which piano you are playing. I have a weighted keyboard that I practice on. My pedaling will be somewhat different than pedaling on other pianos (acoustic or digital).


I don't get this, Griffin.

Looking at M23, for example, after the bass Db octave we have a chord, Gb-Bb-Db, two single notes, Ab and Eb, chord Db-Gb-Bb and single note, Bb so we're expecting NNN N N NNN N.

You have M23 as 5 531 5 521 5.

D'you want to look at this again?
_________________________
Richard

Top
(ads P/S)

Petrof Pianos

#2144083 - 09/04/13 02:57 PM Re: Clair de Lune fingering [Re: zrtf90]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Picking up from the FOYD thread:

Originally Posted By: griffin2417
Originally Posted By: aTallGuyNH
Griffin... your way of writing them is correct IMHO. Mine were backwards, as noted in my last post. Please feel free to flip them for sake of comparison.


Great! Here are my fingerings. I'm sending them as I originally wrote them. Let me know if you have any problems understanding them. I'm glad to have this conversation about Clair smile .

#19
5-531 5-521-5

#20
521x4 531-521

#21
5-531-5 531-5

#22
521x4 531 521

#23
5-531-5 521-5

#24
531x6 521 531

As far as pedaling goes, I agree with Richard. It will all depend on which piano you are playing. I have a weighted keyboard that I practice on. My pedaling will be somewhat different than pedaling on other pianos (acoustic or digital).


I don't get this, Griffin.

Looking at M23, for example, after the bass Db octave we have a chord, Gb-Bb-Db, two single notes, Ab and Eb, chord Db-Gb-Bb and single note, Bb so we're expecting NNN N N NNN N.

You have M23 as 5 531 5 521 5.

D'you want to look at this again?



Hi Richard,
I'll take another look at this. However, I'm going to take this with me to my Thursday piano lesson to get some help from my teacher. I've never done this, and I'm sure my instructor will be happy to help me sort this out. I'll be back to you after that.

I am glad you started this thread! smile
_________________________
Carl


Top
#2144274 - 09/04/13 09:29 PM Re: Clair de Lune fingering [Re: zrtf90]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5294
Loc: Philadelphia
I haven't looked at this score in over 20 years.. and I find myself wanting to do something completely different from what my 9 year-old self did way back when.

I don't have a keyboard in front of me to verify, but try this, starting in mm 19 (and avoiding the octaves, which are 15):

5 531 3 421 5 | 521 (x4) 421 521 | 531 4 2 421 5 | 531 (x4) 421 531 | 531 5 2 (alt 4 1) 421 5 | 531 (x4) 421 531 521 421

Hope it helps. smile
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

Top
#2144362 - 09/05/13 12:12 AM Re: Clair de Lune fingering [Re: zrtf90]
aTallGuyNH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 504
I'll have to go retrieve my notes at a later time, but when I got down to working on this HT, all my left HS fingerings went out the window. I remembered then that the right hand is coming back to the same note that is nominally supposed to be held by the left thumb (1/4 notes that are 4th out of 5 in the tuplets in 19,21, and 23).

The thumb has to get out of the way for the right thumb, which means fingering based on needing the left thumb to be there doesn't make much sense either. I had previously taken the approach to just treat everything in the left hand as 1/8 notes (I'm playing it straight in the right hand -- not sure why), and due to the pedaling I don't have to maintain finger legato, so I wound up with a lot of picking up my hand and plopping it down where convenient vs. gliding smoothly.

I'll post the numbers when I can get my notes and a computer in the same place at the same time.
_________________________
"...when you do practice properly, it seems to take no time at all. Just do it right five times or so, and then stop." -- JimF

Working on: my aversion to practicing in front of my wife

1978 Vose & Sons spinet "Rufus"
1914 Huntington upright "Mabel"

XXIX-XXXII

Top
#2145109 - 09/06/13 07:39 AM Re: Clair de Lune fingering [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2325
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Thanks, Derulux.

I've changed TallGuy's and my initial offerings so that they're easier to compare. What we have now are very minor differences and although there's nothing outlandish here the differences can potentially be very instructive.

#19:
5 421 2 421 5 (TG)
5 421 3 421 5 (R)
5 531 3 421 5 (D)

#20:
521 (x4) 421 521 (TG)
521 (x4) 421 521 (R)
521 (x4) 421 521 (D)

#21:
532 4 2 421 5 (TG)
531 4 2 321 5 (R)
531 4 2 421 5 (D)

#22:
531 (x4) 531 531 (TG = 531 (x6))
531 (x4) 421 531 (R)
531 (x4) 421 531 (D)

#23:
532 4 1 421 5 (TG)
531 4 1 421 5 (D alt)
531 5 3 421 5 (R)
531 5 2 421 5 (D)

#24:
531 (x4) 531 531 521 421 (TG =531 (x6) etc.)
531 (x4) 421 531 521 421 (R)
531 (x4) 421 531 521 421 (D)
_________________________
Richard

Top
#2145138 - 09/06/13 08:41 AM Re: Clair de Lune fingering [Re: zrtf90]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN

Richard,
This chart is helpful the way you've laid it out. I'll send you my revised offerings a bit later since there seems to be some confusion with initial offering.

I showed my fingering notes to my instructor. He didn't see any problems with the way I wrote them out. However, he said if he were to have written them out, the triad numberings would be stacked as if they were alongside the music notes. However, computers make that difficult and we now lay them out linear.

I won't have time until much later today to do some comparisons of my fingering notes with the chart you've laid out. Hopefully I'll be able to discover where the confusion lies with my notes.
_________________________
Carl


Top
#2145148 - 09/06/13 09:13 AM Re: Clair de Lune fingering [Re: griffin2417]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2325
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
We can still do that, Griffin, but we need to make sure it's a non-proportional font and compensate for the editor here deleting extra spaces!!!

Here's TG's in that format:

#19:
. 1 . 1 .
. 2 . 2 .
5 4 2 4 5

#20:
1 1 1 1 1 1
2 2 2 2 2 2
5 5 5 5 4 5

#21:

2 . . 1 .
3 . . 2 .
5 4 2 4 5

#22:
1 1 1 1 1 1
3 3 3 3 3 3
5 5 5 5 5 5

#23:
2 . . 1 .
3 . . 2 .
5 4 1 4 5

#24:
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2
5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4
_________________________
Richard

Top
#2145169 - 09/06/13 10:09 AM Re: Clair de Lune fingering [Re: zrtf90]
aTallGuyNH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 504
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
We can still do that, Griffin, but we need to make sure it's a non-proportional font and compensate for the editor here deleting extra spaces!!!

Here's TG's in that format:

#19:
. 1 . 1 .
. 2 . 2 .
5 4 2 4 5

#20:
1 1 1 1 1 1
2 2 2 2 2 2
5 5 5 5 4 5

#21:

2 . . 1 .
3 . . 2 .
5 4 2 4 5

#22:
1 1 1 1 1 1
3 3 3 3 3 3
5 5 5 5 5 5

#23:
2 . . 1 .
3 . . 2 .
5 4 1 4 5

#24:
1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2
5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4




Not very compact... I.e. quite difficult to compare in this format.
_________________________
"...when you do practice properly, it seems to take no time at all. Just do it right five times or so, and then stop." -- JimF

Working on: my aversion to practicing in front of my wife

1978 Vose & Sons spinet "Rufus"
1914 Huntington upright "Mabel"

XXIX-XXXII

Top
#2145338 - 09/06/13 03:12 PM Re: Clair de Lune fingering [Re: zrtf90]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN

I didn't mean To suggest we should change the format, Richard and TG. My teacher was just noting how computers have brought about the change to what we have today. I agree that it would be extremely difficult to do it the old way. Besides, I've confused you enough already with my original fingering that uses our current format laugh

Anyways, I've had an extremely frustrating morning dealing with a bunch of other issues which have nothing to do with piano work. I've decided to get away from that and instead review my fingering and send it along. I'll be back shortly!
_________________________
Carl


Top
#2145390 - 09/06/13 05:07 PM Re: Clair de Lune fingering [Re: zrtf90]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Okay folks, let's see if I am a little clearer with my fingering notes. I didn't really change my notes from my previous offering. I simply added some additional spacings, and put the number of repeat chords in parenthesis (as Richard did).

I am noticing that some of my fingering is radically different than others. However, that's something I worked out with my instructor because I seem to do a better job with accurately hitting the keys. I'm certainly not recommending it to anyone else, however.

Let me know if you need further clarifications.

#19
5 531 5 521 5

#20
521 (x4) 531 521

#21
5 531 5 531 5

#22
521 (x4) 531 521

#23
5 531 5 521 5

#24
531 (x6) 521 531
_________________________
Carl


Top
#2145482 - 09/06/13 09:58 PM Re: Clair de Lune fingering [Re: griffin2417]
aTallGuyNH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 504
For anyone joining late, we're just talking about the left hand here...

Originally Posted By: griffin2417
Let me know if you need further clarifications.

#21
5 531 5 531 5

#23
5 531 5 521 5

These two aren't jiving with the score. To use Richard's method of explaining, this is N NNN N NNN N, but that only makes sense for #19, not #21 and #23.

In these two measures there is a tuplet consisting of:

1) 3 notes
2) 1 note
3) 1 note
4) 3 notes
5) 1 note

Just so we have the visual (who knows, maybe you have another version? -- DeBussy reworked it at some point, not happy with his first pass, and it is this 2nd version that we know and love today), below is what I am working off of -- or rather, this is the cleanest looking version I have, slightly different than the score I actually have used to learn, but I digress:


So... to explain in plain English, here is what mine means...

Quote:

#23:
532 4 1 421 5


1) 532 = pinky on Gb, middle finger on Bb, index finger on Db
2) 4 = ring finger on Ab
3) 1 = thumb on Db
4) 421 = ring finger on Db, index finger on Gb, thumb on Bb
5) 5 = pinky on Bb


Hopefully that will help explain the confusion. If I'm just making it more confusing though, by all means, I would suggest just writing out what you're doing with your fingers (as I did above), and one of us can convert it to numeric form.
_________________________
"...when you do practice properly, it seems to take no time at all. Just do it right five times or so, and then stop." -- JimF

Working on: my aversion to practicing in front of my wife

1978 Vose & Sons spinet "Rufus"
1914 Huntington upright "Mabel"

XXIX-XXXII

Top
#2145492 - 09/06/13 10:31 PM Re: Clair de Lune fingering [Re: zrtf90]
aTallGuyNH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 504
Ok, here's an updated chart, including Griffin's with the exception of the two measures that didn't line up.

I added my revised ones, splitting them from the original:

"TGt" means "TallGuy, in theory", i.e. what I did when I was analyzing, hands separate at very slow speed.

"TGr" means "TallGuy, in reailty", i.e. what I actually do when I play without thinking about it.

I've arranged these in an order that I thought would help to highlight the differences, it's essentially in descending order numerically. The net effect is to have those with a propensity to use the pinky and index finger more will rise to the top:

#19:
5 531 5 521 5 (G)
5 531 3 421 5 (D)
5 421 2 521 5 (TGr)
5 421 3 421 5 (R)
5 421 2 421 5 (TGt)

#20:
521 (x4) 531 521 (G)
521 (x4) 421 521 (TG)
521 (x4) 421 521 (R)
521 (x4) 421 521 (D)

#21:
532 4 2 531 5 (TGr)
532 4 2 421 5 (TGt)
531 4 2 421 5 (D)
531 4 2 321 5 (R)

#22:
531 (x4) 531 531 (TG = 531 (x6))
531 (x4) 421 531 (R)
531 (x4) 421 531 (D)
521 (x4) 531 521 (G)

#23:
532 4 2 421 5 (TGr)
532 4 1 421 5 (TGt)
531 5 3 421 5 (R)
531 4 1 421 5 (D alt)
531 5 2 421 5 (D)

#24:
531 (x4) 531 531 521 531 (G =531 (x6) etc.)
531 (x4) 531 531 521 421 (TG =531 (x6) etc.)
531 (x4) 421 531 521 421 (R)
531 (x4) 421 531 521 421 (D)


I think #23 is the most interesting... the variety there is an indication of the fact that it's an awkward spot and hard to figure out a clean/simple way to get from point A to point B.

Griffin, I did want to ask you about this one, in the spirit of verifying that we're understanding the notation in the same way:

Quote:

#19:
5 531 5 521 5 (G)


On 531, you have pinky on Ab, middle finger on C, and thumb on Eb. So far so good. You then move your pinky up to C for the next note, then the chord is pinky on Bb, index finger on Eb, and thumb on Gb??

It sounds like a very tough way to go about it given that your middle finger is already there, and on the following note your pinky is going to wind up on the Bb anyway, so I'm wondering if that is what you are actually doing?
_________________________
"...when you do practice properly, it seems to take no time at all. Just do it right five times or so, and then stop." -- JimF

Working on: my aversion to practicing in front of my wife

1978 Vose & Sons spinet "Rufus"
1914 Huntington upright "Mabel"

XXIX-XXXII

Top
#2145587 - 09/07/13 03:29 AM Re: Clair de Lune fingering [Re: zrtf90]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN

TG and Richard. Sorry I couldn't respond sooner. There is definitely a problem with my sheet music. Do not include my fingerings for 21 & 23. I've recently encountered other erroneous notations in this sheet music prior to participating in this thread. I thought I had gotten that cleared up.

Now that the problem with measures 21&23 have come up on this thread, I think I'm going to have to do a thorough review of my sheet music to see if there are other discrepancies. Needless to say I'm pretty frustrated right now.

On a positive note, I may have never discovered the problem had I not been participating on this thread. Thanks!
_________________________
Carl


Top
#2146800 - 09/09/13 08:06 AM Re: Clair de Lune fingering [Re: aTallGuyNH]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Originally Posted By: aTallGuyNH



Griffin, I did want to ask you about this one, in the spirit of verifying that we're understanding the notation in the same way:

Quote:

#19:
5 531 5 521 5 (G)


On 531, you have pinky on Ab, middle finger on C, and thumb on Eb. So far so good. You then move your pinky up to C for the next note, then the chord is pinky on Bb, index finger on Eb, and thumb on Gb??

It sounds like a very tough way to go about it given that your middle finger is already there, and on the following note your pinky is going to wind up on the Bb anyway, so I'm wondering if that is what you are actually doing?



TG, sorry it's taken so long for me to get back to you regarding my fingering in #19.

Yes, I actually do make that unusual leap with my pinky finger. However, I would not recommend it to anyone else. It was more than two years ago when I first started working on this piece. At that time I was just returning to the piano after a 35-year hiatus, I don't remember very many details as to how I arrived at this approach. I vaguely remember that I was having trouble trying to accurately hit the notes in that section of the piece without much success.

The fingering I'm doing now seems to work better for me with some very careful pedaling. I'm not so sure I'm inclined to change it at this point. That is the least of my concerns at the moment, however.

This week my priority for this piece is to look into the musical notation errors in my sheet music. The score I'm currently using was public domain sheet music which I downloaded in 2010. I would appreciate any suggestions you and others have for other versions of this score for me to examine.

Thanks!
_________________________
Carl


Top
#2148069 - 09/11/13 07:47 AM Re: Clair de Lune fingering [Re: griffin2417]
aTallGuyNH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 504
This one has the error that you describe. Don't bother investigating... just ditch it! smile

Any of these should be reliable. I haven't checked them all though.
IMSLP - Suite Bergamasque

I use a score similar to this. It's extremely compact at only four pages, which I find makes it easier to read the intervals.
_________________________
"...when you do practice properly, it seems to take no time at all. Just do it right five times or so, and then stop." -- JimF

Working on: my aversion to practicing in front of my wife

1978 Vose & Sons spinet "Rufus"
1914 Huntington upright "Mabel"

XXIX-XXXII

Top
#2148104 - 09/11/13 09:23 AM Re: Clair de Lune fingering [Re: aTallGuyNH]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN

Thanks so much TG! Yup! I'm definitely ditching that score. My teacher also loaned me his book which also helped me sort some other things out. (I wish I had this teacher before I chose the wrong score.) If I'm lucky, I'll only have a few measures I'll need to do some repair work on.

Thanks again to you and Richard for helping me on this. I'll keep you posted on how my repair work is coming along. smile
_________________________
Carl


Top
#2148107 - 09/11/13 09:43 AM Re: Clair de Lune fingering [Re: griffin2417]
Sam S Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 1411
Loc: Georgia, USA
In case you aren't aware of it, Professor Hugh Sung did a youtube tutorial for Clair de Lune including nice annotated scores a few years ago. He had a thread here in the ABF forum:

Clair de Lune tutorial

Sam

Top
#2148166 - 09/11/13 11:44 AM Re: Clair de Lune fingering [Re: Sam S]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Originally Posted By: Sam S
In case you aren't aware of it, Professor Hugh Sung did a youtube tutorial for Clair de Lune including nice annotated scores a few years ago. He had a thread here in the ABF forum:

Clair de Lune tutorial

Sam


Thanks Sam. I was aware of Hugh Sung's tutorial because of my earlier searches on You Tube. However, that was before I joined PWF.

I am concerned that one of the links (Free Score) had the score that I downloaded and had the errors I'm dealing with now. However, the other links mentioned are excellent.

Once I get all of this back on track, I'll try to write some notes up about what I've learned about this. The most obvious is to carefully examine your scores before you settle on the one you use. laugh

I was pretty upset last week about all of this. However, now that I've had a chance to get over it I'm moving ahead with doing the repair work on my piece.

BTW, where are these retirees who don't have enough to do? I'm certainly not having any problem occupying my time. Take my "Clair problem" for instance! laugh
_________________________
Carl


Top

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
147 registered (accordeur, 88 Fingers Jeff, 36251, aesop, 41 invisible), 1646 Guests and 15 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75901 Members
42 Forums
156864 Topics
2304962 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
To Continue or Not To Continue
by ZPomeroy
38 minutes 25 seconds ago
Use Audacity to SEE, HEAR, and MEASURE beats.
by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Today at 12:55 PM
Any interest in reviving the Denver area piano group?
by Colin Dunn
Today at 11:52 AM
Masterclass etiquette doubt
by Francisco Scalco
Today at 10:21 AM
Using the drum tracks on KAWAI MP6 piano
by Dr Jazz
Today at 08:39 AM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission