Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum New S&S Hammerheads question

That's my concern.

I have listened recently to a Sokolov concert in the 2nd row and it has been something similar to my current sound, just in a bigger way. The instrument was also prepared by the renowed Fabbrini, but the sound was not "Steinway" as I mean (somehow dull and evidently hard to play). The same fact happens in the new recordings of Andras Schiff or Pollini, where the sound is totally different (very very beautiful, open, expressively bright...) but anyway not "Steinway" at all.

Have something changed in the hammerheads production?

This is the unknown when comparing a new set of hammers with a set that has been used for the better part of the previous five or more decades.

I am wondering if it is a mistake to be comparing the old set tone wise to the brand new set at this point in time. I would recommend playing this instrument for a while previous to making any further decisions.



This is very typical of a new set of hammers but also can be caused by the aforementioned over-voicing.

Very helpful. Thank you very much.

There are a number of new instruments that tone dark and woolly when fresh out of the box with new hammer sets; Kawai RX series, Ritmuller148, Hailun products and some others that have slipped my mind for the moment.

Six months into use and these instruments tone quite different I have found. Not to compare these instruments to your 211, but yes there are new processes to making hammers along with the use of long forgotten felts such as Weikert/ Wurzen combinations.

what is sure is that not making the first voicing, at the pretext that the hammer have yet some tone, is a huge mistake, as the tone begins with limited dynamics, then get dry , hard and restricted on year later.

there is an obligation to begin with a too round tone.

thz today pressing is less hard on the felt, that is supposed to keep its resiliency better in time. To obtain more density the felt should be more pressed and then more heated, that was the case until the 90's where the process have evolved after having being studied by scientists , with comparaisons between the felts of the era and the older ones, that tend to keep way better their elasticity in time, strangely.

We are really lucky with good felts today, my opinion.

Possibly also the taste of the public evolved, there is a bigger demand for pianos that can be played brutally and still produce a round tone. This was not possible with older versions of the S&S hammers, you had to be really good to manipulate those beasts.

Sorry Ed, but you are wrong. This pre voicing has practised way back.

I agree that the lack of definition is typical of hammers not being played and/or not shaped well (plus not at the best strike point as an option)
I believe that the strike can be adapted to the style of hammers used.
Anyway power (and good tuning) is what allow voices definition.

voices are mostly in the soprano section. there 2 mm mistake at the strike point is yet enough to rob some definition.

The quality is raised by steps, some are large ones, but there are many many small ones that together make an even larger one in the end.

plus room acoustics, ....

The hammers are a very important part but basically they have to provide playing comfort. They have their own resiliency style, shape, color due to the felt, but the piano is providing the tone.

So unadapted hammers can be modified toward the expected tone, but must basically "work" fine, and should not be so frustrating.

The way the hammers are prepped will push toward a style of tone and the piano do the rest.

Now they are within their own limits in terms of felt thickness and quality, inner shape, type of pressing.

A talented tech/voicer is supposed to save the situation even with the "wrong" hammers.

Will not provide the "authentic" tone but a really playeable instrument.

Now, your hammers come from Renner, not Steinway. Renner has got some different kinds of felt that they say is suitable for Steinway pianos. For example they deliver hammers they say is good for old pianos. Maybe you got some of those?

Yes, some years back Steinway changed hammerfelt. Some people like it and some don't.

Most of the Steinway pianos we have got with the new felt have to be played for at least a year before you can really hear the character of the piano.

Sounds to me like the shoulders are too much weaken during the prevoicing. I encounter that in my country, as the Ooerebecks book was out there are several technitians that took some words of the book like a Bible so I now usually encounter pianos with destroyed shoulders with explenation "but squeze the couschion, look how beautifully soft it is". That is still a bit better than the voicing technique I saw once, three needels, 6 mm straight to the top of the crown, to the strike point. To me, and I am not an experienced technitian, more a begginer the most chalenging part is prevoicing, especially hard hammers, to get that feeling where is the end of working on the shoulders and beginning with the crown, dont know, here the people like harsh and open tone, maybe due to to much petrof and foersters on that pre 1990. era that were more on the soft side, or maybe the taste changes with time, as the instruments, so the technitians, way of life, we live in a noisy enviroment today....

This is not going to be resolved by anyone here. You need to talk to the person who did the work, and see whether it can be expected that the piano will meet your expectations with time and use, or if more work needs to be done.

Could be, but I find this discussion extraordinarily informative, as might anyone with a hammer changeout in their future.

Best regards-

Hello Mario, well they may misunderstood ,as Andre specify that the cushion is supposed to resilient, precisely if you can pinch it soft it is too soft, shoulders overneedled, more prevoicing may restore some resiliency eventually.

The problem arise with impregnated hammers that have little zone for first voicing, and the Yamaha technique of needling the shoulders first. the tone is always more compact and concentrated then.

Pianolive,
I geuss all the time I spent talking with Fred Drasche and talking and working with Joe Bisceglie was just a dream.

Many of the European company’s pre voice in the manner shown in the video. This is how pre voicing is done at Hamburg, Grotrian, Bechstein, Bösendorfer, Fôrster and some others I have probably missed.

Isaac, what do you mean, when you say that the impregnated hammers have little zone for first voicing?

Please also can you explain what the difference is between the European and Yamaha voicing technique is?

Thank you,

+1.

Also, would somebody mind explaining in a bit more detail about the voicing technique in the video?

What length are the needles?-Shallow needling the shoulders? What is the goal?-doesn't seem like they are counting stabs or anything?

It's quite different to the pre voicing procedure described by renner (for renner blue hammers )or Fred Sturms method (from the other list).

Going back to the original question:

No, this is not normal at all. No new Hamburg Steinway will sound "stringy and woolly". A new Hamburg Steinway sounds good out of the box, the result of many hours of intensive and careful tone regulating at the factory. A similar result can be expected by expert hammer replacement on an older Hamburg Steinway. You shouldn't have to "play the hammers in" for a year to get past a "woolly" tone to a good piano sound. Besides, if you wait a year to express your dissatisfaction, you will have no recourse.

Somewhere, something went wrong. If the original installer is unwilling/unable to correct it, then you need to call in a different expert.

I know only one thing, those stabbing of that guys at the video cost a lot of money If you want to buy original Steinway heads, preglued on the shank and prevoiced, you will probably get a headache because for the money you could buy a good used piano not Steinway of course but still it is very very expencive....

Ok, that violent process seems to be necessary.

But a natural question comes: does a young guy, that work for steinway just for some days, know so much, so everything about steinway, pianos, tone, sound, classical music, to be able to obtain the right result?

You see, I love Steinway over every other brand, but by now even the walls know that new steinways do not sound (good) as in the past. It's not a matter of taste, time or aging of the soundboard, I mean, it's a fact, for every people of good will....

So, is it really good that way of preparing the hammers or is it just related to the actual "personal taste" of the brand, of our time and of the market?

Ed, we are talking about the Hamburg factory, not NY. What they do in NY is different.
In Hamburg they are very well aware of how pianos are build in NY but apparently the Germans have their own traditions and among them how to pre voice and voice hammers.