Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players

I prefer Erskine's drumming too, but Blakey's style fit the music he was playing.

[video:myspace]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnD5E5mrxIs[/video] But Jack deJohnette . . wow!

Very very nice uptempo groove! I wish I had the savvy to able to describe some of this to a drummer. You really presume they know their instrument so I don't mess with them.

Oh well, I guess you can't act like you know better so you go with the flow.

Talking about drummers. Here's me and my bassist (drummers night off) at home playing through some tracks this evening - gig on Friday.
Beatrice
United
You Don't Know What Love Is

As always, feedback and comments are most welcome.

Scott, they haven't posted the jam recordings yet. I'll post it here as soon as I can download. I'm curious as to how it sounded as well.

Hey all,

I was playing Beatrice the other night and stumbled onto something: You can play Spring Can really hang you up the most over the changes and the melody fits perfectly except for one Eb, and even this can fit if you try. Try it if you have the time because it will give you another way of looking at the changes which can seem a bit obtuse at times otherwise.

Hey Scep is back. I was playing Beatrice tonight too. It will come together soon. The changes aren't a problem but it's a bit easy to get lost so I'm just solidying my memory.

I also want to play the melody as beautifully as Chris B.

I'll probably just play this solo piano.

Pretty nice groove for just a bass player on all these!

Hey guys! My first post after a considerable period of lurking.

As an introduction, I've played drums for over 20 years - studied in Europe and in the States. I've been playing piano for a few months. I want to thank jazzwee, Chris Bell, scep and all the rest for the producing the finest jazz introduction course I've found. I've read every post in the AL thread! Got my rootless voicings down and am currently trying to build some technique. A friend who is a classical and jazz pianist has been giving me some lessons via skype. I've been using Hanon, Schmitt, Dohanyi, and Pischna along with scales and arp things to get my fingers together. Working slowly through Levine's book.

Maybe I can provide some insight from a drummers perspective. I've studied with Erskine, Weckl and some of the other greats.

Erskine was mentioned earlier in the thread above. He has published a couple of fantastic almost philosophical books on the art of jazz drumming. At the center of his approach is the quarter note. His approach to development involves starting with a simple quarter note in the right hand on the ride cymbal. 2 and 4 on the hi-hats (foot). There are many ways of playing this pulse. Listen to Elvin Jones, or Art Blakey. Some guys lay behind, some are on it, some on top. Without that solid pulse in place you shouldn't even try syncopated figures. It's similar to jazzwees fantastic advice of playing simple 3rds over the ii V Is in AL.

Historically (big band era), guys like Krupa and Buddy rich would play (heel down) 4 to the bar bass drum. It's know as 'feathering'. It adds a nice bottom end in a larger band context. Syncopation really developed from the late great Jim Chapin, who published a book called 'Advanced Techniques for the Modern Drummer' in the 40s (he only passed a couple of years ago and could play with phenomenal accuracy well into his 80s (he employed a technique called 'Moeller', but that's another topic).

With Chapin's book drummers starting creating much more syncopated bass drum playing. I have to say that from a jazz aesthetic I have no idea why any drummer would emphasis one every bar. It's, in my opinion, guaranteed to kill the swing. If you listen to deJohnette (an accomplished pianist too) his figures accent the off-beats of two and especially four. One, very occasionally, as a grounding device. And in the context of his left hand syncopation.

1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +

Interestingly Erskine analyzes the swing off-beat (something much discussed on the AL thread) as being the 4th of a quintuplet. This isn't set in stone as again, there is considerable variance. Elvin, for example, played the off-beat swing with a huge accent compared to many others.

I'll add more thoughts later.

Great stuff RR! I always enjoy hearing from the horses mouth. "Moeller" is an interesting topic for us pianists.



Oh, please do! This is very interesting!
Btw: the dejohnette syncopation is something that Jarrett does a lot with his LH.

I really like the lines you play over Beatrice. I've worked out a head arrangement that I'll hopefully post today or tomorrow, but I'm not even approaching your level on the improv!

Nice counterpoint in the LH on United at about 2:20. That's some tricky stuff to hold together.

I like your voicings on You Don't Know...

I've always really liked piano and bass only... it's fun.

Thanks for your comments - and kind words, appreciate you taking the time to listen.
Yeah, bass and piano duo is fun.

The LH counterpoint thingie is something that I've started work on, this was my first 'live' try, it's a direction I want to take but it's tricky -

Thanks! He's a steady groovemeister - comes from all those years playing in funk and fusion bands, this is his first 5 months into playing double bass.

Riverrun, that's a heck of an explanation. It's moments like this that I appreciate these Jazz threads. It's like it gives back Thanks!

So I have to figure out what you're saying over the drum slang, let me see if I understand.

1. Erskine figures are 2+ and 4+. When you say figures, I presume it's emphasis. Does it mean bass drum too? I'm just confirming that except for marking some position in the form with strong beat on 1, that most of the emphasis would be on the offbeat?

2. Art Blakey apparently is heavy on the Bass drum (from what this drummer said and from the video), but in the video one of the guy's example was a 4+ 1 figure. Am I correct in what I hear?

3. Finally as a drummer, should I even bother communicating with this drummer that he's killing swing by playing 1 at every bar? Or this gets too personal and I'll just have to move on?

4. You'll have to explain the quintiplet some more. This is very interesting because he talks about pure triplet feel in one of his books. Obviously (as you read in the many swing posts), pianists don't play triplet feel in swing. I am interested to know if there's some connection between the two.

Welcome BTW and I'm glad you're getting something out of what's being written. My teacher's a very good friend of Erskine. There's a lot to be learned from him even as a pianist. I have one of his rhythm books.

Here's what I've worked out on Beatrice. I decided not to do it as a ballad. There are three short takes with only a little improv, mostly because I haven't really worked on that much yet. I like the 3rd take. What do you all think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUf-Be3FrMQ

I just love videos like this because everything is so clear for discussion.

Your voicings and groove on this are very nice. I didn't (so far) work it out as two because I liked the way Chris played the melody in a rubato way. But it sounds pretty good this way too.

BTW - I was intrigued by that two handed fast figure you at the BbMaj7 in the head Very Chick Corea-ish. I'll have to slow that down.

Solo, all of them sound good to me. Melodic and nice consistent swing. Your time is excellent! Lines are very interesting.

LH is too strong though for my preference. In general, perhaps the LH is moving too independently and not working with the lines in the RH. Like you would do the same thing in the LH regardless of what's happening in the RH. However, it also sets a nice solid groove so maybe this works better in solo piano.

This is a style thing so everyone may have a different taste. Maybe because Chris B. provided a contrast with his playing which almost had Chopin like dynamics and it just stuck to my head.

Very nice job Scott!

BTW - anyone thinking Phrygian on the Am? Or you all just consider the Bb an avoid note?

I have to be careful here becaue on autopilot I'm thinking B natural on the Am instead of Bb. I haven't encountered too many phrygian chords. In fact I had to look up the spelling again

Chris, Thanks! I will cover "Moeller" (named after Sanford Moeller) in detail in a future post if you like. It certainly revolutionized my drumming. Essentially you use natural body motions and a whipping type motion to create accents. You get the unaccented notes 'for free' as your arm comes back up. You utilize the natural rebound of the drums surface.



Thanks jazzwee! I'e learned an enormous amount from this and the AL thread!

To clarify, the and of 2 and 4 referred to deJohnette's playing. I've edited the post to read 2 and 4, rather than 2+4, so as to avoid confusion. That refers to the hi-hats. So following Erskine's approach you would play quarters with the right hand, and accent 2 and 4, the second and fourth beats with the hi-hats. From there you would play quarters with your left hand, in unison with your right, then move to playing quarters off-beat (on the third beat of the triplet), to playing the 'in-between' beat. (IE: the second beat of each triplet. Next you would focus on playing shuffles. Two beats. First and third beat of the triplet, along with the ride quarters. And off-beat, playing the second and third beats of each triplet etc. This is very simple but absolutely key to understanding swing. Jazz is, from a drummers perspective 'top-heavy'. The cymbals and upper part of the body provide the accents. The most important accents are the second and fourth beats of the pulse. Rock is an inversion of this. It is bottom heavy. One and three on the bass drum. The 'high-end' is brought down in volume. The focus is on the earthier, more grounded, bass drum and snare. This is one reason why playing one on the bass drum each bar will kill the swing. It's idiomatically in-correct. Might work in a Latin or fusion setting, but over most standards, forget it.

And yes, the off-beat is key in Jazz. But even more fundamental is the quarter note feel. That is what drives the pulse.



Blakey was one of the great swingers. Moanin' is a classic album to listen to, and if you do you will *not* hear him playing the bass drum on one. His emphasis is on two and four. Clearly stated with the hi-hats (left foot) and snare (left hand). That's what makes it such a swinging album. And yes you are absolutely correct. the 'and' of 4 is extremely common in good Jazz drumming. From big band tuttis through its an accent, like a cliff edge that adds tension. All music, imo , is about tension and release - rhythmic and harmonic. The 4+ anticipation creates that excitement. An accent on one is useful as a release (or if the drummer feels he needs to state the time).
[/quote]



Depends on the guy. Drummers can be sensitive about such things. Maybe you could ask him to be more syncopated, rather than less of something negative...



The triplet feel is definitely the place to start. It's an easy subdivision. Rhythm and meter in much western music are very simplistic (not necessarily a bad thing) compared to other cultures. There are pianists who can take a scale through whole notes, half notes. quarters, triplets. sixteenths, quintuplets, sixteenth note triplets, septuplets, and maybe nines and 10s. But as a drummer there is much more out there tro explore/ The great Gary Chaffee who taught as Berklee (Vinnie Colauita, and Steve Smith were both pupils) developed some really amazing literature on much more advanced meter and polyrhythm. There is a whole world, as yet unexplored, of advanced harmonic and rhythmic interplay in my opinion.

The quintuplet analysis of Erskine's is from 'Drum Concepts and Techniques'. If you subdivide each quarter into 5.

12345 12345 12345 12345

The off-beat swung ride cymbal pattern would be:

12345 12345 12345 12345




Thanks Jazzwee. The thread on AL was a real eye-opener to me. It's vastly expanded my musical knowledge

[/quote]

Edit: I just watched the Art Blakey demo above. That style of playing: A shuffle, IE: Left hand playing one and three of every triplet and accenting 2 and 4 as back beats, is a classic sound. Gadd used it to great effect with Richard Tee. Jeff Porcaro played a half time shuffle on Rosanna. However it is not typical for a jazz setting at all. Jazz drumming should be about a conversation with the soloist. Comping and supporting. Questioning and answering. A dialog.

Wow! There's a lot to absorb here. This requires some deep analysis. I've noticed that Brad Mehldau plays his eighths at a very unique interval. He doesn't swing the eighths but starts and stops them mid beat somewhere. He seems to know precisely were to land them and I have a suspicion it's connected to this.

It's just a guess. No one I know has ever discussed this so this part of my own personal self discovery on rhythm and so I'm intrigued. Is there a slowed down example of this somewhere?

I've talked about this in here somewhere but you're perhaps the only one rhythmically savvy enough to continue the discussion.

Jazzwee, Interesting that you mention Mehldau.

I had been working on very simple arrangements of some Nick Drake tracks that I love, when I came across Mehldau's covers of some his tunes. He was one of the reasons I decided to study Jazz Piano.

There's a concept in drumming called 'beat displacement' which is similar to what Mehldau does. In essence all the on-beats become off-beats for a measure or two. It creates real excitement, and you need a solid bass player for it to work (so that they don't follow you). That idea, along with playing over the barline, as in fills that extend from say 3 of one bar to the and of 2 in the next bar, can create some real rhythmic tension.

To my ear Mehldau's phrasing is a combination of 16ths and triplets, sometimes slightly anticipated, sometimes slightly late. Given that the classic swing pattern would place the off-beat on the third of a triplet, or fifth beat of a sextuplet (1+2+3+), the Erskine version would place the off-beat slightly earlier.