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#2144620 - 09/05/13 01:18 PM from priceless to $14,000
Michael Sayers Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 723
Loc: Stockholms län, Sverige
Hi Everyone,

This is probably not what the particular Bösendorfer piano owner was hoping for!

http://www.propertycasualty360.com/2013/08/08/contents-claim-solved-the-case-of-the-priceless-pi


M.

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#2144653 - 09/05/13 02:12 PM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Briguy65 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 284
Loc: So California
I hope he didn't pay priceless for the piano. Still, even if it's not "vintage" if you enjoy the sound of a piano, and enjoy playing it, that's what counts the most!

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#2145096 - 09/06/13 07:04 AM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Rich Galassini Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 8974
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
Judging from the description, this is exactly what the Meyer and SAP rebuilds are today.
_________________________
Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Get Cunningham Piano Email Updates

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#2145102 - 09/06/13 07:19 AM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Rank Piano Amateur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 1734
To tell an insurance company that something is "priceless" is utterly meaningless. It cannot put that value on it.

This is a sad story, though, no matter how you look at it. I hope that there was some recourse against the entity that sold the buyer this piano or rebuild job.


Edited by Rank Piano Amateur (09/06/13 07:25 AM)

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#2145121 - 09/06/13 08:12 AM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Rank Piano Amateur]
Rich Galassini Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 8974
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
Originally Posted By: Rank Piano Amateur
To tell an insurance company that something is "priceless" is utterly meaningless. It cannot put that value on it.

This is a sad story, though, no matter how you look at it. I hope that there was some recourse against the entity that sold the buyer this piano or rebuild job.


Yes, nothing is priceless. However, a "restored" piano can mean many things. The technology used either honors the original design and what the piano was meant to be - or casts it by the wayside. Changes are either thought out carefully as to how they will effect an instrument over time, or they are made to save money and sell the piano.

Additionally, most dealers that sell a piano like this one do not even know what they are selling. Many are as naive as their buyers, in my experience.
_________________________
Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Get Cunningham Piano Email Updates

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#2145168 - 09/06/13 10:06 AM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Michael Sayers]
sleepy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 328
Also priceless: "glaring inaccurisms"

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#2145205 - 09/06/13 11:22 AM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1457
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
New Bosendorfers have particle board lids. Maybe the rebuilt one sourced a new lid from Bosendorfer?. The article also didn't define the qualifications of the person or people who inspected the piano for the claim.

This whole thing brings to mind the scene from the "Pink Panther" movie where Inspector C return home after a long absence to be attacked by his sidekick. They proceed to destroy the elegantly appointed apartment including a "priceless Steinway grand". Closeau retorts "not anymore" to the "priceless" claim.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2145211 - 09/06/13 11:31 AM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Rank Piano Amateur]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10297
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: Rank Piano Amateur

This is a sad story, though, no matter how you look at it. I hope that there was some recourse against the entity that sold the buyer this piano or rebuild job.


I would not presume that the buyer was duped. He may have bought a "restored" piano, and then let his imagination get ahead of the facts. If the seller did indeed make false statements in writing about the piano, there is potential recourse. Alternatively, the buyer may have bought a reasonably priced and clearly described restoration and then rubbed his proverbial hands together thinking he had just made a killing -- only to find out that it was just another restoration and not a "pristine" vintage rarity. In that case, his disappointment is his own issue.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

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#2145255 - 09/06/13 12:37 PM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Tararex Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 378
Loc: Middle Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Michael Sayers
Hi Everyone,

This is probably not what the particular Bösendorfer piano owner was hoping for!

http://www.propertycasualty360.com/2013/08/08/contents-claim-solved-the-case-of-the-priceless-pi
M.

Wow. "It did not require provenance, research, or connoisseurship of Bosendofer pianos". It's strange to read an open admittance by this company that their final value decision was based not on provenance or research, but on complete piano value ignorance. Amazing and insightful.

How sad for the owner of the destroyed piano.
_________________________

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#2145350 - 09/06/13 03:38 PM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1227
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
I expect there is a LOT more to this story.
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Yamaha G7 - Roland FP7

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#2145359 - 09/06/13 03:52 PM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Rich Galassini]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1602
Loc: California
Generally a priceless piece of art or building going through restoration requires extremely rigorous levels of faithfulness. Experts and scientists from the field are brought in to make sure that everything used and done is exactly to the period. That means they re-produce the paints and laquer of the period using period materials and methods. They use wood from that era of same quality. True restoration to a priceless status in the art world bare a cost many times the price of a new one, possibly even hundreds of times more. Generally this level of rigor are apply to something truly priceless that could be afforded by only governments, institutions, museums, and the like.

I think the piano would have to be originally made by Boesendorfer himself and own by a famous pianist like Liszt to qualify. Even so, the cost of restoration is so prohibitive that nobody would bother. Where do you find 19th century steel? You have to manufacture that at what cost? If you think I'm talking crazy, just think about the millions it cost to clean the Mona Liza, or the insanity in cost of restoring the Parthenon in Greece. Though even that's not as obscene as the $6.4 billion in rebuilding the Oakland span of the Bay Bridge for earthquake safety, but I digress.
_________________________
Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci

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#2145384 - 09/06/13 04:45 PM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: 4evrBeginR]
Caowner2013 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/17/13
Posts: 79
Originally Posted By: 4evrBeginR
...Though even that's not as obscene as the $6.4 billion in rebuilding the Oakland span of the Bay Bridge for earthquake safety, but I digress.


A bridge is used by millions a year and supports the commerce ($396 Billion) that directly impacts each Bay Area resident's livelihood. A piano is at best a fine musical instrument and at worst a piece of neglected furniture. The two are orthogonal. Some of us need that bridge to make enough pennies to buy a piano. wink

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#2145432 - 09/06/13 07:01 PM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Michael Sayers]
peekay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/31/13
Posts: 184
It's obscene because the span replacement was supposed to cost "only" $800 million. Before construction even started, the cost had doubled to $1.6 billion, and then quadrupled again to $6.4 billion by the time it opened last week, over eight times the initial cost estimate!

So the span was $5.6 billion over budget. Since this is a piano forum, put the overrun in perspective, $5.6 billion is enough to buy every single person living in San Francisco proper (city & county) a brand new Yamaha U1. Tax, delivery and first tuning included. laugh
_________________________
Working on RCM Grade 8

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#2145437 - 09/06/13 07:22 PM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1730
Loc: Philadelphia area
Is bench included???

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#2145449 - 09/06/13 08:21 PM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: peekay]
Caowner2013 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/17/13
Posts: 79
Originally Posted By: peekay

So the span was $5.6 billion over budget. ... laugh


Don't forget the over-stressed brittle pins!

Forgive my bias, how about a Walter 190 for every single head in Walnut Creek, all inclusive, including leather-top adjustable bench and lesson cost for a year!

Now I must leave to cross the bridge... laugh


Edited by CalifPianoUser2013 (09/06/13 08:23 PM)

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#2145455 - 09/06/13 08:57 PM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Caowner2013]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1602
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: CalifPianoUser2013
Some of us need that bridge to make enough pennies to buy a piano. wink


Me too! I can't even imagine what the toll will be next year....
_________________________
Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci

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#2145459 - 09/06/13 09:06 PM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Dave B]
Swarth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 365
Loc: SF Bay Area Ca.
Originally Posted By: Dave B
Is bench included???


No the bench is separate and attached to a high speed rail car somewhere near Bakersfield. You thought the bridge was expensive...
_________________________
Quid est veritas?

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#2145466 - 09/06/13 09:26 PM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Michael Sayers]
peekay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/31/13
Posts: 184
So I did some calculations.

The cost of providing a Jansen bench, to every San Francisco resident, is $528 million. Yes, more than half-a-billion dollars!

People! I give you free pianos, brand new, delivered, tax-free, and now you want benches?!! This is how we get into cost overruns!!!

laugh
_________________________
Working on RCM Grade 8

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#2145483 - 09/06/13 09:58 PM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1474
Loc: Danville, California
How about a free tuning?

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#2145510 - 09/06/13 11:11 PM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Michael Sayers]
peekay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/31/13
Posts: 184
:sob:

You know, back to the original topic, maybe the owner of that Bösendorfer wasn't the one who purchased or restored it. Perhaps the piano has been in the family for a number of years, was inherited, etc. Maybe that's why it was "priceless" to the owner.
_________________________
Working on RCM Grade 8

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#2145517 - 09/06/13 11:29 PM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Caowner2013]
rlinkt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 291
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: CalifPianoUser2013
Some of us need that bridge to make enough pennies to buy a piano. wink

No -- you just handed over the pennies you were saving for that U1 for that eastern span. And the bench -- I understand that will go to pay somewhere between $36M ($20M+$16M -- not sure which is for what) in completion bonus to the contractor.

So now that we have paid the taxes, we do not have to worry about what piano we can afford any more.

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#2145576 - 09/07/13 02:48 AM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: peekay]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1602
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: peekay
:sob:

You know, back to the original topic, maybe the owner of that Bösendorfer wasn't the one who purchased or restored it. Perhaps the piano has been in the family for a number of years, was inherited, etc. Maybe that's why it was "priceless" to the owner.


It's possible. I remember reading a while back about someone who asked the forum about restoring his family verticle piano from late 1800's of obscure brand, and most were telling him a $20,000 restore of his family verticle piano may not be worth it, but he was seriously considering it because to him it was priceless even though most have told him the market value is about the same as firewood, though not in those words. In this case, that worthless thing (to the market) was worth so much to him he was willing to sink another $20K into it.

If you refuse to sell something for any price, then it is priceless to you, though people say there's a price for everything, and you only refuse to sell because the price is not high enough. I guess $14K was not high enough, which is why it is priceless.
_________________________
Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci

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#2145630 - 09/07/13 07:42 AM Re: from priceless to $14,000 [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Rich Galassini Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 8974
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
New Bosendorfers have particle board lids. Maybe the rebuilt one sourced a new lid from Bosendorfer?. The article also didn't define the qualifications of the person or people who inspected the piano for the claim.


Ummm Ed...

New Boesendorfers certainly do NOT have particle board lids.

However, the Polish rebuilding companies that I mentioned frequently use them.
_________________________
Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Get Cunningham Piano Email Updates

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