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Unfortunately not. I'm trying to bring to this discussion the importance of the sound as the damper ends the note, and how this is done.

The damper is not an on and off switch. How rapidly it comes down, and how far it comes down and begins to touch the vibrating string, has a huge impact on the sound at the end of the note. The end of the note is just as important as the beginning of the note (ie, the attack sound). Believe it or not, your ear hears that, whether your brain differentiates it or not, and it does impact the quality of sound produced by the pianist.

I have just tried this on a digital (and will compare it to an acoustic a bit later.)

On this old (20 years) but originally good quality digital, it makes a considerable difference how I lift off the key.

If I do so very quickly, I get an abrupt end to the tone.

If I do so more carefully, I get a little bit of a taper to the sound.

On this digital, I do not get fine gradations of taper. I get basically a binary choice between choppy and tapered. It may be that I can get a finer distinction with an acoustic or a more modern digital, I'll test that too.

keystring plays violin I believe, and my primary instrument is trombone. On either one we can start a note piannissimo, crescendo gradually to ff, and decrescendo back down. That option isn't available on a single note on piano, though of course you can do it over a phrase. But I see you can affect the ending of a note to some extent (and maybe I've done so without consciously realizing it.)

No, there's more to it than that.

Under current conditions, the factor that influences dynamic shading in an acoustic grand piano action is not brute force, but rather velocity. Speed determines dynamic color, not force. The faster you go down, the louder the sound is on most grand pianos in good regulation, found anywhere in the world. The slower you go down, the quieter sound is. Even if you aim at the same "point of sound" where the let-off is set every single time, you can still get all these dynamic shadings just by altering the speed of the descent. If you change the point you aim for, either a bit higher or lower than the let-off, you get different colors of sound, from transparent to thick. Couple that with changes in the speed of the descent, and you have an enormous range of expression strictly in the sounds produced by a standard grand action.

I have yet to see any electronic action regulated to this degree of responsiveness. Heck, most of them are "pressure-sensitive", which means that their "point of sound" is set to the very bottom of the key! This is deleterious in so many ways, physiologically/ musically/technically, I don't have time to list them all. I will say that, if you think it's a matter of force, then you are doing too much. My teachers were very fond of saying that "fortissimo should feel like pianissimo!" even on an electronic keyboard. Otherwise, you're going to get injured.

When the player moves from such a keyboard to an acoustic instrument, this kind of bad keystroke timing actually encourages a harsh, inexpressive sound, and an inability to control the dynamic shadings and articulation on every note. It's one of the complaints I have about most pop and jazz players. They have a very poor ability to 1- control their articulation , 2- they can't really move in speed with much consistency, and 3- they can't control their tone color all.

This is the kind of playing we are supposed to be encouraging in our students? No mater who or what they are???

And so we finally begin to discuss in practical terms the engineering design limitations of the electronic keyboard you are playing at the time.

Amazing how it doesn't begin to mimic what actually happens on an acoustic piano.

As I said, there is no industry standard for these switching assemblies. And they cannot be regulated by technicians in the field.

As for the grand actions you've played, these are out of regulation. And they can be adjusted by any competent technician.

If I understood it correctly, nowadays, most, if not all, of the broads uses 2 or 3 optical sensors to measure the velocity, not the pressure. But probably true, most people just hit the key with more force all the way to the bottom to get the speed, but many has the same habit on the acoustic too.



Insightful, thanks!

I am curious, while you help the jazz, pop players to recover, did you convert them to acoustics? Or they just learned to play in a way that doesn't hurt themselves anymore?

I managed to try 5 pianos today

1 digital, 3 uprights, and a grand.

The grand has the best dynamic range, it is also the loudest. On all other pianos, you can make them soft (or almost as soft), but you can't make them that loud. Action aside, I think the maximum volume also plays an important role.

One larger upright was also pretty good.

Another upright has a very shallow keys, a bit difficult for me to manage the dynamics.

The third upright has a very heavy action for some reason, I also have difficulties to control the dynamics.

All 4 acoustics feels differently, the similarity is that the when you press down a key, the resistance is not constant, especially when I press the key slowly, the let off feeling is obvious.

I was able to control the dynamics, actually better than at least one upright, on the digital. But the key resistance on the digital is constant, it has the same resistance level from the beginning, until hitting the bottom.

All 5 pianos gave me different feelings, the digital gave me a distinct different feelings, I have to say it is not as lively, probably because the constant resistance.

Actually, that's an area where the digital can have an advantage. It's perfectly possible to program them to have any kind of taper on either end of the note, crescendo or decrescendo on one note, or bend the pitch between notes. None of that can be done on the acoustic.

Whether the ability to do different tapers on the end of the note with the damper is a limitation is merely a guess at this point. It can't be a huge advantage on any acoustic - there just isn't enough cushion on the damper nor time between notes - even assuming you don't pedal.



That's really two different concepts.

It remains to be seen how well digital pianos mimic damper release. Modern ones do string resonance pretty well; this is just programming. Mine is an early 80s version, still going strong, but way behind the times.

Inherent in your statement is the idea that the purpose of the digital is to mimic the acoustic. That is not necessarily so. The piano does not mimic the harpsichord, clavichord, or organ; it is its own instrument. The digital may evolve this way as well.

You did point out that playing into the keybed has been said to be an injury risk. I haven't seen any real evidence that anybody is more likely to do that on a digital. But interestingly enough some digitals are designed to allow that. Mine has performance voices (that I never use) that add an additional effect when you do that.

Actually, there is, and because of it, this is one of the important differences between artistically musical playing and amateur playing. Many artists pick up on it, without formal training, because, well, they're geniuses. The rest of us rely on someone teaching us to be aware of and how to control this in our playing.

And it's one of the hardest things to teach piano students!! Pedaling is an art. I just watched a demonstration on Youtube in which the presenter was teaching how to use all 3 pedals at the same time. Most amateur players never get this far in repertoire.

I will "listen with big ears" for this.

An interesting article from WSJ

Please note there is a video tab, a stock quote tab(of course it is WSJ), and a comment tab.

So now that you have done the experiment, what's your verdict?
- If you are an early stage student, what would you prefer to learn on?
- If you are already an expert, would you prefer to play on a daily basis?

Well, a nice grand is the best, the bigger the better :-), in a big house.

Some uprights I tried, the one in the basement of our church, the one in my uncle's house, the one in my friends home, they all works, but to be honest, they are not very enjoyable. The keys are very heavy, some of them are uneven. Some of them, the let off is a bit too strong to the point that is annoying.

My friend brought an house, came with it was a beautiful looking antique grand piano, but you can only play slow motion on it.

I visit piano dealers whenever I have a chance, any acoustic that feels and sounds better to me than a $1,000 digital, will cost $5,000 or more.

I also discussed with our teacher, her take was:
Having a grand is not enough to make a pianist, having a digital, is not going to destroy one.
She understands the concerns that learning on a digital will form some bad habits, her observation is that doesn't happen. As a student advances, as some point he and she will prefer a good acoustic and she saw no issue with the transition.

rlink, to answer your questions:
- If you are an early stage student, what would you prefer to learn on?
Well, you know my answer if there no constrains.
I think as long as the instrument is "bigger" than the student. Honestly I don't think a 6' grand or a Casio will make a difference to a normal 4 year old.
I do believe it is important to make sure a student does not out grow his instrument, at some point, a good quality acoustic is necessary, for some, at some point, a top quality grand would become a must.

- If you are already an expert, would you prefer to play on a daily basis?
I would guess I could make anything sound impressive since I am an expert, right? Sorry, if I am an expert, I would not have started this thread.

You didn't ask what I like as who I am, let me also answer that:
I would like an instrument that I can enjoy. I really enjoy the grands in the piano stores, I cannot honestly say the same to my friend's antique grand except it is really nice to look at. My uncle's.....

I am still enjoying the digitals, and unfortunately I enjoy the software pianos even better, but let's not go there.

I hope one day, one day I will only like the grands, I might need to practice a lot more to get there.

Thanks everyone that bothered to answer my questions, I better go practice now.

Good evening. In my opinion there definitely is a difference for a normal 4 year-old. Not just between a grand and a digital but also between an upright and a digital. A four year-old can go under the piano and pluck or strike the strings, he can play a key and listen from below, he can hear the difference when the lid is open or closed, he can see it being tuned, he can see the accumulation of dust. These aspects of a piano definitely are perceived by small kids and suscitate their interest, I would suppose much more than for big kids or adults.

The differences in touch in different parts of the keyboard. The various sounds the piano makes. The imperfections, buzzings for example, or out of tune notes, these all go into a child's mind. The physical volume of the sound.

That aspect.... I have to agree.
I still remember vividly my father's dark room, and the first time I saw the film magically turn into a smiling face. Those Kodak moments I will always remember.

I managed to find a roll of 30mm film and show it to my 7 year old son, he was super excited and brought it to school for show&tell. No students in his class has seen it.

Some people argue nothing can replace the black and white, I agree. But I also love my digital SLR nevertheless.

Continue with the thought, if you paid attention to the parallel thread The future of piano playing?, I can't help to imagine 70 years later, when the mind controlled piano becomes the norm, my son tells his grandson the good old days : "do you know once a upon a time, pianos have keys.....". I probably won't see that day, might be it is a good thing?!

Sorry I couldn't resist.

I don't really know why I'm bothering to respond, considering that it's apparent that 1- you haven't really read my posts very carefully, 2- you don't care to, and 3- you don't know anything about the prevalence or cause of injury among keyboard players of any kind. And you haven't bothered to find out.

I pray fervently that you never get to know what I'm talking about personally. In all seriousness, this is not an outcome I'd wish on any anybody who plays seriously.

The reason that it's best if digital keyboards mimic the action of the grand piano is because of neuromuscular efficiency. It is possible to use the grand action in the most efficient way possible, where the least amount of neuromuscular, metabolic energy can expended to produce the most amount of effect, provided that the keystroke timing is performed correctly. The electronic action should at a minimum be able to do this, or better. It should promote as great, or greater, neuromuscular efficiency in the performer. I have not yet seen an example in the field, clinic or lab that actually does this.

Your "answers" about the digital/acoustical taper have nothing to do with the physio-mechanical aspect of playing. That is very unfortunate, because that's precisely the aspect I'm talking about. These are not two different concepts and, to the performer, they cannot be. To make them disparate is to create dysfunction in the technique, and ultimately produce fatigue and injury in the performer.

If you want to argue the point further, then respond with an answer about that last point.

Tellingly, you don't find anything from the manufacturers about the injury rates experienced from their keyboards. Now if this were computer keyboards in the 1990s, and musicians or keyboard manufacturers had any money to speak of (neither do), there would have been piles and piles of lawsuits, as there were. It's not that there isn't a good deal of research done on the subject. It's just that they'd prefer that you don't read about it before buying, just like IBM, Compaq and Dell.

Had you even been born then? And by the way, I think Keith Emmerson would argue the point with you, considering he got epicondylitis rather badly that became dystonia from playing mostly electronic keyboards. And the list goes on and on and...

Greg, are you saying that even a baby grand would be better than ANY upright?

Actually, as I've posted previously, the well regulated upright action successfully mimics the grand action in every respect except speed of response. It's a little slower than the grand action because of its design limitations. But nothing that the player cannot adjust to easily.

Maybe, but I'll bet that your great-grandson, doing his space-scales up on planet Virtuelle, will have an old-fashioned whistle attached to his utility belt ! Rendez-vous in 2075!