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Here it is - a dedicated thread for the discussion of Jonathan Biss's online lecture series on the Beethoven piano sonatas. Sign up and watch them here: https://www.coursera.org/course/beethovensonatasAlso, I plan on keeping this particular thread fairly tightly moderated. Please limit the discussion to the history and performance of the Beethoven piano sonatas. Those needing scores can find them on IMSLP here: I would suggest referencing the edition by Heinrich Schenker, as it is the closest thing on IMSLP to an urtext edition and it has measure numbers. (Please note that in this edition, measure numbers appear at the ends of the measures they refer to. It's one of Schenker's quirks, and knowing this little fact can make looking things up a little less confusing.) ENJOY!
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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Thank you very much for posting this thread, Kreisler! I'm signed up for it and have finished all of the videos for this week's lecture. I'll look at more aspects of this tomorrow. Right now, I'm learning Op. 2, No. 3. It's such a tricky piece, but the second movement is incredibly beautiful and wonderful! Note how the opening motive of the second movement is basically the same as the opening motive of the first movement.
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From the first lecture, what stood out to you most? Was anything new to you? Did you disagree with anything?
I'm generally familiar with music of Bach, Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven (although certainly not to the degree any of the Pianist Corner regulars are), and the general timespan and influences, and with sonata form, but the way it was put together and illuminated with details was new to me.
The most standout piece of information for me was the idea of the lightweight final movement, and that over the course of the sonatas (and I suspect his other compositions too) Beethoven was grappling with and overturning that tradition. I think of the 9th Symphony in connection with this.
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Also, I plan on keeping this particular thread fairly tightly moderated. Please limit the discussion to the history and performance of the Beethoven piano sonatas. I understand. Although, (and I'm not trying to be smarmy here) I assume we also talk about the Beethoven Fantasia in G minor, Op.77? Why did Jonathan Biss included this in his class on the 32 Sonatas? In other words, what is its relationship to the sonatas? Any ideas?
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I was shocked that only one of Beethoven's Sonatas was performed in his lifetime at a public concert. I understand that pianists performed their own music at concerts, at least until Liszt and Clara Schumann came along - is that right?
So Beethoven published the Sonatas, people bought the music, and then they played them at home or at private parties? I have to keep reminding myself that there were no recordings, so only very few people actually heard one of the Sonatas in his lifetime.
Sam
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Also, I plan on keeping this particular thread fairly tightly moderated. Please limit the discussion to the history and performance of the Beethoven piano sonatas. I understand. Although, (and I'm not trying to be smarmy here) I assume we also talk about the Beethoven Fantasia in G minor, Op.77? Why did Jonathan Biss included this in his class on the 32 Sonatas? In other words, what is its relationship to the sonatas? Any ideas? Yes, discussions of any related works are fine. I expect the variations, symphonies, string quartets, the Andante Favori, etc. will all make appearances, as will works by other composers (probably Mozart, Haydn, Dussek, and Czerny.)
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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Also, I plan on keeping this particular thread fairly tightly moderated. Please limit the discussion to the history and performance of the Beethoven piano sonatas. I understand. Although, (and I'm not trying to be smarmy here) I assume we also talk about the Beethoven Fantasia in G minor, Op.77? Why did Jonathan Biss included this in his class on the 32 Sonatas? In other words, what is its relationship to the sonatas? Any ideas? Yes, discussions of any related works are fine. I expect the variations, symphonies, string quartets, the Andante Favori, etc. will all make appearances, as will works by other composers (probably Mozart, Haydn, Dussek, and Czerny.) Letter of the law alert, synergy. Just don't talk about what you had for breakfast this morning.
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Polyphonist
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Does anyone know the current enrollment size of this course?
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Does anyone know the current enrollment size of this course? 32K, apparently.
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Polyphonist
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Thanks, Kreisler. I look forward to PWers' perspectives. I was shocked that only one of Beethoven's Sonatas was performed in his lifetime at a public concert. So was I. And the string quartets were seldom performed as well, right? I've been thinking about how that may have enabled him to depart from tradition and take more risks. At the time, the sonata's place was in the home -- might he have preferred it that way, as a sort of compositional laboratory within which he was able to work out the new language he needed to articulate his vision? (Apologies for all the mixed metaphors.)
Last edited by jmcintyre; 09/06/13 07:20 PM. Reason: Forgot my manners.
I'd rather be practicing Kawai K-3, Roland FP-7F Now: Brahms Op. 118, Bach French Suite #5
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Thanks, Kreisler. I look forward to PWers' perspectives. I was shocked that only one of Beethoven's Sonatas was performed in his lifetime at a public concert. So was I. And the string quartets were seldom performed as well, right? I've been thinking about how that may have enabled him to depart from tradition and take more risks. At the time, the sonata's place was in the home -- might he have preferred it that way, as a sort of compositional laboratory within which he was able to work out the new language he needed to articulate his vision? (Apologies for all the mixed metaphors.) It seems that we only have a record of the one sonata being performed during Beethoven's lifetime. There may have been other performances that we have no historical record of. And what about those sonatas that might have been performed in small private concerts? Op. 2, No. 3 seems to have been written specifically for the young Beethoven to show off his skills as a virtuoso.
Private Piano Teacher MTNA/NJMTA/SJMTA
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The accredible link provided by synergy543 above is very good, providing Biss's performance in his practice studio of sonata no. 5. The link below is a short video where Biss talks about some of his practice habits as he has tackled the project of recording all the Beethoven sonatas. http://www.npr.org/event/music/155236772/in-practice-jonathan-bisshttps://www.accredible.com/9872
Steinway B Yamaha AvantGrand N2 Roland RD-700NX
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In Lecture 1-5, Jonathan Biss suggests listening to some additional sonatas, one of them being the Haydn Sonata in C major, Hob. 16_50. I have to admit that I've avoided Haydn and am not familiar with much of his music. However, on listening to this Sonata, and thinking of the context, in terms of influence on Beethoven and general development of the sonata form, this was most enlightening to me. I feel embarrassed that I've been in the dark all this time about, what now seems to me, very important and intriguing music. Whether Beethoven was influenced by this piece directly or not, its clear that the influence of Haydn was not as small as Beethoven implied. Its thrilling to discover new gems such as this. I'm so glad I'm taking this course. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYTkOgmqBvgI think this piece was written in 1773 as far as I can tell from the chronological lists of Haydn's works, making it even more interesting as it was written before Beethoven's time (well, 3yrs old - so maybe he didn't have too much influence on the world yet).
Last edited by synergy543; 09/07/13 05:00 PM.
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It should also be noted that some binary forms do restate the opening theme in the tonic key. When this happens, it's usually referred to as a 'rounded' binary form. Some of Haydn's early sonatas are very brief and the relationship to binary can be more evident.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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In Lecture 1-5, Jonathan Biss suggests listening to some additional sonatas, one of them being the Haydn Sonata in C major, Hob. 16_50. I have to admit that I've avoided Haydn and am not familiar with much of his music. However, on listening to this Sonata, and thinking of the context, in terms of influence on Beethoven and general development of the sonata form, this was most enlightening to me. I feel embarrassed that I've been in the dark all this time about, what now seems to me, very important and intriguing music. Whether Beethoven was influenced by this piece directly or not, its clear that the influence of Haydn was not as small as Beethoven implied. Its thrilling to discover new gems such as this. I'm so glad I'm taking this course. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYTkOgmqBvgI think this piece was written in 1773 as far as I can tell from the chronological lists of Haydn's works, making it even more interesting as it was written before Beethoven's time (well, 3yrs old - so maybe he didn't have too much influence on the world yet). It happens to be my favorite Haydn sonata. It's a lot of fun to play. It was actually written in 1794 and is probably the last of Haydn's piano sonatas.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠$
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I finished watching the first lecture and was struck by the incomplete picture he painted of "How Things Were." Listening to Biss, one might get the impression that Mozart and Haydn were the only important sonata composers of the 18th century and that Beethoven was solely responsible for the subsequent advances in piano writing. While Haydn and Mozart are the most highly regarded today, there was an extremely important group of composer-pianists working in London who were contemporaneous with Beethoven. This "London" school included pianists like Cramer, Dussek, Clementi, and Field. Beethoven would certainly have been familiar with these pianists and was influenced by them a great deal. I mention this because Biss makes a point of saying that the later movements of the sonata began to gain much more weight under Beethoven's hand. However, if one looks at the Op. 9 and Op. 10 sonatas by Dussek (published in 1789, six years before Beethoven's Op. 2 appeared), one can see last movements already gaining importance. Take for example the stormy end to Dussek's G minor sonata, Op. 10#2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFjcT6eG7_A(Interestingly enough, this sonata has only two movements. The first serves as something of an overture to the second.) Another example would be Clementi's Op. 25#5, a very forward-looking three movement sonata, almost romantic in scope. The first movement is Allegro con espressione, the second is Lento e patetico, and the third is a weighty, fiery Presto. And it's in F# minor. The sonata appeared in 1790, also well ahead of Beethoven's Op. 2. I say none of this to diminish the stature of Haydn, Mozart, or Beethoven, but instead to elevate the stature of their contemporaries. Biss's first lecture was titled "How Things Were." Being born 10 and 18 years before Beethoven and having been widely performed and published before the great master, Dussek and Clementi were a VERY important part of "how things were."
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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But during Beethoven's lifetime piano recitals did not exist. Pianist would play for one another at each other homes or as part as a religious service but it was not common place for piano recitals until Chopin and Liszt some 15 years after Beethoven's death. I did not know this until the splendid Biss lecture.
Serge P. Marinkovic, MD
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Solo piano recitals did not exist, but concerts that included piano music definitely did. Concert series like the Concert Spirituel in France and the Bach-Abel concerts in London were popular in the mid 18th century.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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I finished watching the first lecture and was struck by the incomplete picture he painted of "How Things Were."
Listening to Biss, one might get the impression that Mozart and Haydn were the only important sonata composers of the 18th century and that Beethoven was solely responsible for the subsequent advances in piano writing. While Haydn and Mozart are the most highly regarded today, there was an extremely important group of composer-pianists working in London who were contemporaneous with Beethoven. This "London" school included pianists like Cramer, Dussek, Clementi, and Field. Beethoven would certainly have been familiar with these pianists and was influenced by them a great deal.
. . .
Biss's first lecture was titled "How Things Were." Being born 10 and 18 years before Beethoven and having been widely performed and published before the great master, Dussek and Clementi were a VERY important part of "how things were." I wondered the same thing, but assumed that he left it out due to time constraints and possibly to cater to an audience which must contain many thousands of people who probably never heard of Haydn, much less Clementi or Dussek. I agree it is rather irksome that these other composers are not even mentioned, though.
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