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#2145523 - 09/06/13 11:44 PM Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)?
Steve Armstrong Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/22/13
Posts: 21
hi everyone
Looking for some actual sources, not opinionsthat address the importance of learning Bach in the early years of study, especially in higher education. For example, many institutes require prelude and fugues, and/or all the 2 & 3 part inventions in the first year(s).

Does anyone know of any books or articles that discuss this?

Please don't clog up this thread with "it's the independency of lines musically and technically blablabla"...I know...I don't care, I just need academic sources. Thanks!
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Prokofiev Seventh
Franck Prelude, Choral and Fugue

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#2145531 - 09/07/13 12:42 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13780
Loc: Iowa City, IA
In the US, there is almost no agreement and certainly no organized effort to suggest or enforce such a curriculum.

If you polled college professors in the US and asked them, I'm almost sure they'd all say "it's the independency of lines musically and technically blablabla" Either that, or they'd point out that Beethoven was taught Bach as a youngster, so we should do that, too... (more blablablablabla...)

I can't even think of an academic journal that would publish such an article. It's a little too specific for JRME, and the audience isn't quite right for AMT or Clavier Companion (neither of which are academic journals anyway), and nobody really writes or reads the peer-reviewed MTNA eJournal. It might be treated in the USC online journal, but it's not widely read.
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#2145565 - 09/07/13 02:22 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Steve,

I'm rather curious why you'd want to approach the question that way.

Do you doubt the efficacy of assigning Bach during the years of study? Or do you wonder why it's required on college-level auditions?

Myself, I think that it's required audition rep because it's very difficult to make that kind of thing sound like music. College-level teachers are only interested in considering students that can make it sound like...something.

No, that's not going to show up in an academic journal. But then again, why do you want a citation in a music journal? It's not going to have a strong basis in science anyway, if that's what you're looking for.
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1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
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#2145627 - 09/07/13 07:36 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11800
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Steve Armstrong
hi everyone
Looking for some actual sources, not opinionsthat address the importance of learning Bach in the early years of study, especially in higher education. For example, many institutes require prelude and fugues, and/or all the 2 & 3 part inventions in the first year(s).

Does anyone know of any books or articles that discuss this?

Please don't clog up this thread with "it's the independency of lines musically and technically blablabla"...I know...I don't care, I just need academic sources. Thanks!

Are you writing a paper on this subject?
_________________________
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MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2145684 - 09/07/13 10:33 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
malkin Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 2521
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
Good luck finding 'actual sources' that do not reflect opinions on this or any other topic.
_________________________
A good student is one who makes the teacher feel like a good teacher.

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#2145722 - 09/07/13 12:03 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: malkin]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5462
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: malkin
Good luck finding 'actual sources' that do not reflect opinions on this or any other topic.

Nicely put! smirk

I don't have any actual sources, either, but I do have plenty of opinions on this subject, with which I could easily "clog up" the thread.
_________________________
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#2145842 - 09/07/13 03:10 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
Dwscamel Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/13
Posts: 466
What an arrogant way of posing the question.

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#2145859 - 09/07/13 03:39 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
Opus_Maximus Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/04
Posts: 1485
Originally Posted By: Steve Armstrong
hFor example, many institutes require prelude and fugues, and/or all the 2 & 3 part inventions in the first year(s).



Do they?? Never heard of this...

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#2145897 - 09/07/13 05:18 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Morodiene]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17776
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: Steve Armstrong
hi everyone
Looking for some actual sources, not opinionsthat address the importance of learning Bach in the early years of study, especially in higher education. For example, many institutes require prelude and fugues, and/or all the 2 & 3 part inventions in the first year(s).

Does anyone know of any books or articles that discuss this?

Please don't clog up this thread with "it's the independency of lines musically and technically blablabla"...I know...I don't care, I just need academic sources. Thanks!

Are you writing a paper on this subject?


Yeah, I got the distinct impression that Mr. Armstrong was asking us to do his homework for him. wink
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#2145934 - 09/07/13 06:23 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
Overexposed Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2647
Originally Posted By: Steve Armstrong
hi everyone
Looking for some actual sources, not opinionsthat address the importance of learning Bach in the early years of study, especially in higher education.


This reminds me of George Carlin talking about "jumbo shrimp"...which is it, Jumbo or Shrimp?

In other words are you asking about "early years of study" (elementary) or the later years of study (college).

I would think that "early years of study" rules out college studies. Perhaps the OP misunderstood his assignment.

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#2145941 - 09/07/13 06:36 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
KurtZ Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 885
Loc: The Heart of Screenland
Why do they call them apartments when they're all attached to one another?
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I just wanted to be just "a" guy. That's enough of a life.

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#2145989 - 09/07/13 08:09 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: KurtZ]
Overexposed Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2647
Originally Posted By: KurtZ
Why do they call them apartments when they're all attached to one another?


laugh

Does anyone know the answer? Please do not give opinions. I only want academic sources cited.

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#2146109 - 09/08/13 12:41 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
Steve Armstrong Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/22/13
Posts: 21
wow you are all really blowing this way out of proportion. Stop looking too far into it and making assumptions and jumping to conclusions. My question doesn't even express an opinion. I'm not questioning any institutes' methods, or whatever. Mr. Armstrong does not in fact have an assignment or a paper. I simply asked if anyone knows of any sources that discuss this topic, that's it. There are similar ideas to this such as playing Hanon. Rachmaninoff said in his first year, all students had to play every Hanon exercise in every key at ridiculous tempi. I just wanted to know if there is any discussion about Bach specifically in the first year (or any year really). Is that so hard?

I'd expect everybody's opinions would be the similar if not the same to any text - that's not the point. But hey who knows, a source might even say Bach isn't important! Again, not the point. Just want to find a published source that discusses/addresses/mentions the topic. I'm not looking for sources that contradict opinions, or support! God.

There's that many GD posts here that talk about Bach in early years at least with beginners with the Bach minuets. It was required of me to learn a prelude and fugue in first year of tertiary studies but I didn't have to choose one of Bach's. I know a former pupil of Michelangeli who said that she could play all of Rachmaninoff's concertos but when she began studies with Michelangeli, he made her "start over" with Bach inventions. I have also read about the topic in the Etude magazine - I think it was - but can't find it again! Well all know the benefits of learning Bach, again, I'm just looking for a source that discusses it.

If anyone has any helpful suggestions then great, if not, you don't need to say anything. Mocking and making snide remarks isn't helpful. If it makes you feel better about yourself, well then I suppose it is helpful to somebody.

Thank you all for making my experience here with this community a very positive, fruitful and rewarding one. (Yes, you would be correct in assuming that was sarcasm)
_________________________
Prokofiev Seventh
Franck Prelude, Choral and Fugue

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#2146120 - 09/08/13 01:34 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s) [Re: Steve Armstrong]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5924
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Steve Armstrong
Mocking and making snide remarks isn't helpful. If it makes you feel better about yourself, well then I suppose it is helpful to somebody.

Thank you all for making my experience here with this community a very positive, fruitful and rewarding one. (Yes, you would be correct in assuming that was sarcasm)
Well, it's possible that the tone of your request might have had something to do with the tone of the replies. It did seem somewhat blunt and demanding.
Originally Posted By: Steve Armstrong
Please don't clog up this thread with "it's the independency of lines musically and technically blablabla"...I know...I don't care, I just need academic sources.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#2146132 - 09/08/13 02:11 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s) [Re: currawong]
Steve Armstrong Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/22/13
Posts: 21
well sure it could be interpreted that way. It's hard to be sure about tone.
_________________________
Prokofiev Seventh
Franck Prelude, Choral and Fugue

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#2146154 - 09/08/13 03:11 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1383
Loc: Cameron Park, California
Originally Posted By: Steve Armstrong
I know a former pupil of Michelangeli who said that she could play all of Rachmaninoff's concertos but when she began studies with Michelangeli, he made her "start over" with Bach inventions. I have also read about the topic in the Etude magazine - I think it was - but can't find it again! Well all know the benefits of learning Bach, again, I'm just looking for a source that discusses it.

If anyone has any helpful suggestions then great, if not, you don't need to say anything. Mocking and making snide remarks isn't helpful. If it makes you feel better about yourself, well then I suppose it is helpful to somebody.

Thank you all for making my experience here with this community a very positive, fruitful and rewarding one. (Yes, you would be correct in assuming that was sarcasm)




I myself am not familiar enough with the topic to be able to [yet] personally direct you to textual resources, however, I do keep this thread bookmarked which discusses Bach's 2+3part inventions in detail - both how they were written with the purpose of being compositional exercises (and not specifically technical ones) and how they may best be taught/learned. There's also a nice link to another thread regarding ornamentation of the inventions. See here: http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2714.msg23310.html#msg23310

Also, perhaps one of these pedagogical texts on technique might provide a more objective analysis of Bach's works and the pedagogical value contained therein: http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4385.msg41226.html#msg41226

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#2146169 - 09/08/13 04:00 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Bobpickle]
Steve Armstrong Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/22/13
Posts: 21
Thanks bobpickle! Maybe not quite what I'm looking for but looks interesting anyway. Will have to go through them smile
_________________________
Prokofiev Seventh
Franck Prelude, Choral and Fugue

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#2146327 - 09/08/13 12:54 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Overexposed]
KurtZ Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 885
Loc: The Heart of Screenland
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
Originally Posted By: KurtZ
Why do they call them apartments when they're all attached to one another?


laugh

Does anyone know the answer? Please do not give opinions. I only want academic sources cited.


Well played Ann, well played.

As long as were here: Why do we drive on the parkway but park on the driveway?
_________________________
I just wanted to be just "a" guy. That's enough of a life.

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#2146433 - 09/08/13 03:11 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11800
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Steve Armstrong
wow you are all really blowing this way out of proportion. Stop looking too far into it and making assumptions and jumping to conclusions. My question doesn't even express an opinion. I'm not questioning any institutes' methods, or whatever. Mr. Armstrong does not in fact have an assignment or a paper. I simply asked if anyone knows of any sources that discuss this topic, that's it. There are similar ideas to this such as playing Hanon. Rachmaninoff said in his first year, all students had to play every Hanon exercise in every key at ridiculous tempi. I just wanted to know if there is any discussion about Bach specifically in the first year (or any year really). Is that so hard?

I'd expect everybody's opinions would be the similar if not the same to any text - that's not the point. But hey who knows, a source might even say Bach isn't important! Again, not the point. Just want to find a published source that discusses/addresses/mentions the topic. I'm not looking for sources that contradict opinions, or support! God.

There's that many GD posts here that talk about Bach in early years at least with beginners with the Bach minuets. It was required of me to learn a prelude and fugue in first year of tertiary studies but I didn't have to choose one of Bach's. I know a former pupil of Michelangeli who said that she could play all of Rachmaninoff's concertos but when she began studies with Michelangeli, he made her "start over" with Bach inventions. I have also read about the topic in the Etude magazine - I think it was - but can't find it again! Well all know the benefits of learning Bach, again, I'm just looking for a source that discusses it.

If anyone has any helpful suggestions then great, if not, you don't need to say anything. Mocking and making snide remarks isn't helpful. If it makes you feel better about yourself, well then I suppose it is helpful to somebody.

Thank you all for making my experience here with this community a very positive, fruitful and rewarding one. (Yes, you would be correct in assuming that was sarcasm)


Many of the teachers on this forum are professionals who usually get paid to give out information. We come on here to help one another when we can in spite of this fact. I would think one would be satisfied and happy with whatever information is given, and not sour and demanding. It certainly would give us motivation to assist you.

With this attitude and the one in the original post, I for one, do not feel inclined to help. Good luck in your research.
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MTNA member
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#2146541 - 09/08/13 06:00 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
malkin Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 2521
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
Originally Posted By: Steve Armstrong
...My question doesn't even express an opinion..


Clearly entirely unbiased. Like the Fox network.
_________________________
A good student is one who makes the teacher feel like a good teacher.

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#2146554 - 09/08/13 06:28 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
rada Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/07/06
Posts: 1124
Loc: pagosa springs,co
I am hopeful that music can calm any and all beasts in the media. It's not their fault....they have to report 24/7....same stuff...how boring....though I have no problem practicing Bach and Chopin for years...and then some.

rada

thanks for everyone's input I always try to find something to learn.

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#2146568 - 09/08/13 06:55 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: malkin]
Barb860 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/09
Posts: 1646
Loc: northern California
Originally Posted By: malkin
Originally Posted By: Steve Armstrong
...My question doesn't even express an opinion..


Clearly entirely unbiased. Like the Fox network.


Oh, please. Please keep politically slanted issues out of this forum.
I come here to get away from politics and TV. Stay with piano-related discussion.
thanks.
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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#2146641 - 09/08/13 09:43 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3172
Loc: Maine
Perhaps a less tendentious question to ask would be: are there any published materials about what to include in a conservatory or university piano major curriculum? Or is the curriculum planning all handed down by tradition and word of mouth?
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#2146667 - 09/08/13 11:13 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Barb860]
red-rose Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/13
Posts: 177
Loc: Cleveland, OH
Originally Posted By: Barb860
Originally Posted By: malkin
Originally Posted By: Steve Armstrong
...My question doesn't even express an opinion..


Clearly entirely unbiased. Like the Fox network.


Oh, please. Please keep politically slanted issues out of this forum.
I come here to get away from politics and TV. Stay with piano-related discussion.
thanks.

Yeesh. Does anyone honestly believe ANY tv network is "unbiased?" Sigh. (That's meant as a rhetorical question!)

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#2146848 - 09/09/13 10:05 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
"...Mocking and making snide remarks isn't helpful..."

That is their greatness, Steve.

As for your original question: visiting a library may be helpful. Librarians are sometimes more kindly than piano teachers or university professors; anyway, they will know how to direct you to the resources.
_________________________
Clef


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#2146896 - 09/09/13 11:47 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Wasn't it Chopin who used to warm up in the morning with a romp through some Bach WTC gems ... I take the dogs for a walk.

But then I drive a Ford.

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#2146897 - 09/09/13 11:54 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: KurtZ]
prenex Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 189
Loc: Minnesota
Originally Posted By: KurtZ
Why do they call them apartments when they're all attached to one another?


They look attached, but are built detache. You know, in the appropriate style.

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#2146913 - 09/09/13 12:16 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
Sweet06 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/13
Posts: 408
the funny thing is, is those sources are just links to other peoples opinions lol.

i guess you professional teachers aren't professional enough to use your opinions wink


Edited by Sweet06 (09/09/13 12:17 PM)
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#2147149 - 09/09/13 07:13 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Sweet06]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11800
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Sweet06
the funny thing is, is those sources are just links to other peoples opinions lol.

i guess you professional teachers aren't professional enough to use your opinions wink
Exactly. laugh
_________________________
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MTNA member
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#2147158 - 09/09/13 07:28 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]
Sweet06 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/13
Posts: 408
books and articles are written by non bias robots that are programmed by aliens to only write truth based on robot instilled intelligence! lol ok i'm done laugh
_________________________
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