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#2143852 - 09/04/13 04:43 AM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: stores]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: stores

Technical and musical difficulties do NOT go hand in hand. You'll come to learn that with more experience. I'm safe in saying that, because any musician WITH a good bit of experience will tell you that they are not intertwined.


The above is a statement with no factual arguments.

You are wrong, stores. At least, in a way. When I say they are intertwined, I mean this:

A passage becomes physically harder the more you attempt to make it sound better. If the musical difficulty is to play fast and loud, that is also the technical difficulty. Not just fast and loud though. Minute control is very difficult technically. If a run calls for quick, fleeting phrasing, and the pianist cannot deliver, s/he will likely resort to using a rubato to compensate for lacking technique. (this is very common in scherzo 4) Therefore, the musical challenge of that phrase is intertwined with the technical challenge.

See?


No, I'm not wrong. Do you even play the piano? I know Mark agreed with you, but that means nothing. He would agree with Satan, to disagree with me.
Whether you realise it, or not, what you wrote above pretty much proves my point.


"Do you even play the piano?" LOL

No, nope.. I don't.

And I think Mark is a pretty honest guy around here. You two butt heads often because more times than not the discussion is opinion based, and yours frequently differ from Mark's. He's not 'out to get you' so to speak. That's just how I see it at least.

By the way, you still have done nothing but make statements with no facts supporting them. Good luck trying to win arguments that way.


Edited by JoelW (09/04/13 04:47 AM)

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#2143875 - 09/04/13 06:29 AM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
No response to my post about structuring climaxes?
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#2143877 - 09/04/13 06:39 AM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Kuanpiano]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
No response to my post about structuring climaxes?


I don't really have anything to say in particular because I agree with what you said.

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#2144071 - 09/04/13 02:27 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: stores]
Cheeto717 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 702
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: JoelW
What exactly is the argument here?

Well, it might not be totally clear. smile

As I saw it, what Kuan was saying (essentially) was that the 4th Ballade 'isn't that hard technically.'

Which, as I said (more gently than this), is completely absurd.

BUT, he has "deniability" on it. ha
Because, he didn't 'really' say that. He said the difficulties are more musical than technical, and "most of the sections aren't all that bad technically."

If we look at those things narrowly, arguably he's right.

But I wasn't looking at it narrowly; I was trying to look at it meaningfully. ha

Like, how is it meaningful, if we think we're saying something of any interest and importance, to really only mean that "most of the sections" of the piece aren't that hard technically, if some of them are extremely hard? Why is that worth saying if you only mean it narrowly?

(Kuan, take it!) grin


My two cents:

I'm sick of people comparing technical and musical difficulty as if they're mutually exclusive. They're not. They're intertwined. Any chump can play the coda to the ballade and make it sound bad. It's playing it musically well that makes the technical challenges hard. Technical difficulty and musical difficulty go hand in hand.


Technical and musical difficulties do NOT go hand in hand. You'll come to learn that with more experience. I'm safe in saying that, because any musician WITH a good bit of experience will tell you that they are not intertwined.


Goodness gracious...I could not disagree more.

the 3rd and 4th scherzi are, in my opinion, better compositions than the first two which I believe suffer from structural weaknesses. Even the great Chopin masters can't avoid the feeling of repetitiveness. Again, this is obviously just my opinion.

He "fixes" this in the 3rd scherzo with a much more compact piece which I find to be extremely effective. It also has a mind blowing coda which is one of my absolute favorite endings of Chopin. This along with gorgeous and powerful main themes makes this a staple in my repertoire.

The 4th, while matching the first two in duration (maybe surpassing it, I'm not quite sure) surpasses the first two as far as sheer quality of content. It is a masterpiece on par with the 4th ballade, barcarolle, sonatas, and I'd even put it on the same pedestal as other monumental piano pieces like the Hammerklavier, Bminor sonata (Liszt), Goldberg Variations, etc.

It's one of those pieces that make you wonder what planet Chopin came from lol!
_________________________
Working On:
Bach: Partita No. 6
Beethoven: Op. 26
Brahms: Op. 120
Chopin: Op. 10

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#2144153 - 09/04/13 05:12 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
Cheeto717 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 702
Loc: Pennsylvania
May I submit my personal favorite performance of this incredible piece.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CNYX7OkceA
_________________________
Working On:
Bach: Partita No. 6
Beethoven: Op. 26
Brahms: Op. 120
Chopin: Op. 10

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#2144261 - 09/04/13 08:50 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
pianist.ame Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/07
Posts: 1166
Loc: Singapore
Am studying it now... and it's my first big Chopin work

As my teacher said it is technically not as difficult as the rest however musically it is much harder to hold together...not saying that it isn't technically challenging either; there are a few passages which are not that easy to play perfectly& really get a grasp off.

I love it though esp. that minor section in the middle and at the end of that section right before I goes back to the main subject I always get this feeling as if I'm soaring.
_________________________
Mastering:Chopin Etudes op.10 nos.8&12 and op.25 no.1, Chopin Scherzo no.4 in E major op.54, Mozart Sonata in B flat major K.333& Khachaturian Toccata

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#2144270 - 09/04/13 09:24 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: pianist.ame]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: pianist.ame
As my teacher said it is technically not as difficult as the rest...

Then your teacher is delusional.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2144285 - 09/04/13 09:44 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: pianist.ame]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Although I wouldn't have put it how he did.... ha .....Polyphonist has it right about the piece.

Originally Posted By: pianist.ame
....there are a few passages which are not that easy to play perfectly& really get a grasp off.....

Just about everything in the outer sections is very hard to play.

UNLESS, we don't care about tempo, or evenness, or clarity.

Not to mention just plain accuracy. (Unless we don't care about tempo or evenness or clarity.) grin

But don't get me wrong: It's great that you're studying the piece. But there's a lot that you aren't realizing about it if you really think what you said.

Are you sure you didn't somehow misunderstand your teacher??

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#2144288 - 09/04/13 09:47 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
pianist.ame,

Good luck with it. I studied it for a while but decided to put it on the shelf. The descending staccato chords are the hardest part of the entire piece - too hard for me.

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#2144326 - 09/04/13 11:14 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
Immortal Beloved Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/15/13
Posts: 18
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I'd just like to discuss this piece with whoever's interested, since I'm obsessed with it right now. laugh Favorite passages? Quirky interpretative things? Story to go along with the piece (I came up with a few cheesy ones)? grin

And Mark, if you'd like to rave about the technical difficulty, be my guest. I probably agree with you. ha


What a cretin you are.
_________________________
R.I.P. Beethoven

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#2144328 - 09/04/13 11:19 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Immortal Beloved]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
As much as I hate to waste a post just with "huh," I have to say (on Poly's behalf, not that he needs my help):

HUH????

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#2144338 - 09/04/13 11:35 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Immortal Beloved]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Immortal Beloved
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I'd just like to discuss this piece with whoever's interested, since I'm obsessed with it right now. laugh Favorite passages? Quirky interpretative things? Story to go along with the piece (I came up with a few cheesy ones)? grin

And Mark, if you'd like to rave about the technical difficulty, be my guest. I probably agree with you. ha


What a cretin you are.


Get out.

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#2144605 - 09/05/13 12:40 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: JoelW]
Okay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Paris
I think the technical/muscial duality is non sense. Of course we cannot split into 2 mutually exclusive concepts. A different belief may come from the confusion between technical and mechanical concepts.

Mechanical skills are the ability to play scales, arpeggios, thirds, jumps, octaves with minimal effort ... this is just a subset of technical skills. And certainly not the larger part.

But how to play the first 2 lines of the fourth ballade, if you are not backed by amazing technical skills ?
Phrasing the upper part just naturally, managing perfect legato, leaving the background in the background, producing constantly a transparent sound, giving to the bass just the good weight ... this is just horrific. What a technical mastery is needed to do justice to this unreal music...


Edited by Okay (09/05/13 12:43 PM)
_________________________
www.youtube.com/user/PIAN0K

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#2144612 - 09/05/13 12:55 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Okay]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Okay
I think the technical/muscial duality is non sense. Of course we cannot split into 2 mutually exclusive concepts. A different belief may come from the confusion between technical and mechanical concepts.

Mechanical skills are the ability to play scales, arpeggios, thirds, jumps, octaves with minimal effort ... this is just a subset of technical skills. And certainly not the larger part.

But how to play the first 2 lines of the fourth ballade, if you are not backed by amazing technical skills ?
Phrasing the upper part just naturally, managing perfect legato, leaving the background in the background, producing constantly a transparent sound, giving to the bass just the good weight ... this is just horrific. What a technical mastery is needed to do justice to this unreal music...

Good insights. Probably stores is confusing velocity with technique.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2144645 - 09/05/13 01:58 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Okay
I think the technical/muscial duality is non sense. Of course we cannot split into 2 mutually exclusive concepts. A different belief may come from the confusion between technical and mechanical concepts.

Mechanical skills are the ability to play scales, arpeggios, thirds, jumps, octaves with minimal effort ... this is just a subset of technical skills. And certainly not the larger part.

But how to play the first 2 lines of the fourth ballade, if you are not backed by amazing technical skills ?
Phrasing the upper part just naturally, managing perfect legato, leaving the background in the background, producing constantly a transparent sound, giving to the bass just the good weight ... this is just horrific. What a technical mastery is needed to do justice to this unreal music...

Good insights. Probably stores is confusing velocity with technique.


stores doesn't get confused. He's always right.

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#2144784 - 09/05/13 06:57 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Anybody want to mention favorite passages? I've discussed a few myself-

Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
...One moment that never fails to bring tears to my eyes (when played well) is the section at bar 865, and the transition into the next section at 873. It's one of the most beautiful passages in Chopin, indeed in all piano music. The harmonies are all so perfect, and then that little gesture at 888-889 - it is not just emotion, it transcends emotion, it is in a way otherworldly. Schumann, Liszt, or Brahms, while all great composers in their own right, could never have written this passage.


Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
...another amazing place is the passage at 217, and specifically the incredible moment at 225...The 8 bars starting at 217 are like a little shadow, a cloud passing over the sun, and 225 has that amazing "bursting into the sunlight" feeling that only Chopin could have achieved. This passage also happens to be extremely difficult to pull off convincingly.


Anyone?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2144806 - 09/05/13 07:30 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
...One moment that never fails to bring tears to my eyes (when played well) is the section at bar 865, and the transition into the next section at 873. It's one of the most beautiful passages in Chopin, indeed in all piano music. The harmonies are all so perfect, and then that little gesture at 888-889 - it is not just emotion, it transcends emotion, it is in a way otherworldly.


Yes, this it was stunning learning these passages. Once you uncover ever little harmony you see it in a new light. One of the best spots in the piece.

Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
...another amazing place is the passage at 217, and specifically the incredible moment at 225...The 8 bars starting at 217 are like a little shadow, a cloud passing over the sun, and 225 has that amazing "bursting into the sunlight" feeling that only Chopin could have achieved. This passage also happens to be extremely difficult to pull off convincingly.


I like this description. I love how the "burst of sunlight" happens at the very top of the run. It's minor all the way up to the top then BOOM, sudden change of character. And not the mention that left hand chord at the end. What is the theoretical name for this chord? (inverted dominant7 with a 6th?) I used it quite often in my two miniatures. It's my favorite kind of chord.

Quote:
Schumann, Liszt, or Brahms, while all great composers in their own right, could never have written this passage.


wink


Edited by JoelW (09/05/13 07:33 PM)

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#2144810 - 09/05/13 07:35 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Quote:
Schumann, Liszt, or Brahms, while all great composers in their own right, could never have written this passage.


wink

?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2144812 - 09/05/13 07:36 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Quote:
Schumann, Liszt, or Brahms, while all great composers in their own right, could never have written this passage.


wink

?


?

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#2144814 - 09/05/13 07:37 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
This is one of my favorite Chopin pieces, up there alongside Opus 52, 58, 60, 62, and maybe a few others.

Come to think of it, that would be an interesting thread - favorite pieces for each composer - we could learn a lot about people's personalities from that. laugh Maybe I'll start it. smile
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2144815 - 09/05/13 07:37 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Quote:
Schumann, Liszt, or Brahms, while all great composers in their own right, could never have written this passage.


wink

?


?

Never mind.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2144816 - 09/05/13 07:40 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Quote:
Schumann, Liszt, or Brahms, while all great composers in their own right, could never have written this passage.


wink

?


?

Never mind.


I was just curious why you were curious. I winked because I agree -- and you probably know my sentiments on Chopin's ranking with other composers.

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#2144818 - 09/05/13 07:42 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Quote:
Schumann, Liszt, or Brahms, while all great composers in their own right, could never have written this passage.


wink

?


?

Never mind.


I was just curious why you were curious. I winked because I agree -- and you probably know my sentiments on Chopin's ranking with other composers.


Well now, don't be too hasty - there are also passages in those other composers' works that Chopin couldn't have written. Personally, ...

...but that's subjective, of course. grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2144819 - 09/05/13 07:42 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
This is one of my favorite Chopin pieces, up there alongside Opus 52, 58, 60, 62, and maybe a few others.

Come to think of it, that would be an interesting thread - favorite pieces for each composer - we could learn a lot about people's personalities from that. laugh Maybe I'll start it. smile


Yes, make that thread. I've been hoping someone would today. How ironic.

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#2144820 - 09/05/13 07:42 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
This is one of my favorite Chopin pieces, up there alongside Opus 52, 58, 60, 62, and maybe a few others.

Come to think of it, that would be an interesting thread - favorite pieces for each composer - we could learn a lot about people's personalities from that. laugh Maybe I'll start it. smile


Yes, make that thread. I've been hoping someone would today. How ironic.

Why don't you make it? grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2144844 - 09/05/13 08:44 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
All right, all right, I gave in and made it. Let's see what happens.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2144870 - 09/05/13 09:26 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: JoelW]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: JoelW

stores doesn't get confused. He's always right.


+1 I'm glad you realise this.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2144871 - 09/05/13 09:28 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: stores]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: JoelW

stores doesn't get confused. He's always right.


+1 I'm glad you realise this.

And very humble and open-minded he is too, Joel. grin

I love how you put a "+1" after a sarcastic post against yourself. ha
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2144877 - 09/05/13 09:34 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4931
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: JoelW

stores doesn't get confused. He's always right.


+1 I'm glad you realise this.

And very humble and open-minded he is too, Joel. grin

I love how you put a "+1" after a sarcastic post against yourself. ha


Hahaha

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#2147281 - 09/09/13 11:01 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
Working on this piece again...and it's one of those pieces where I find different tempi work in different sections. It feels like the staccato quarters need to be quicker than the section with the running eighths in the right hand...hmmm

Another piece had this issue....Scarbo.

Otherwise, it's coming back surprisingly quickly, though again I find that section with the right hand flying all over the place to be much more difficult than those rising and falling staccato chords.


Edited by Kuanpiano (09/09/13 11:01 PM)
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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