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#2147303 - 09/10/13 12:06 AM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Kuanpiano]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19999
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
....it's one of those pieces where I find different tempi work in different sections.

Right off the bat, this seems very, very wrong.
(Not counting the middle section of course.)

Quote:
It feels like the staccato quarters need to be quicker than the section with the running eighths in the right hand...hmmm

Pardon my offering this counter-theory grin ....but the way I hear that is, you're playing the running-8th-note parts too slow.

Which is understandable, because they're HARD.
This is a very hard piece.
Which is what we've been saying, isn't it.... smile

Quote:
Another piece had this issue....Scarbo.

I don't know Scarbo well enough to be sure but I'd guess the same comments as the above could be made for that too.

Quote:
Otherwise, it's coming back surprisingly quickly....

Uh......uh.........uh.........maybe not that quickly. grin

Quote:
....though again I find that section with the right hand flying all over the place to be much more difficult than those rising and falling staccato chords.

I did the above comments before seeing this.

And y'know, those staccato chords are very hard too. If you don't have trouble with that, you're doing great. But, it sounds to me like the other sections are harder than you've ever given them credit for being.

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#2147385 - 09/10/13 06:25 AM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2173
Loc: Canada
Trust me with the tempo parts, you can't play Scarbo with the same tempo throughout (nobody does), and I work with the metronome a lot. I do need to speed up those eighths though...

I prefer not to think of how hard things are supposed to be when I work, because what's the point really? I know what effect I want, have a method to get there, and the rest is just practice.


Edited by Kuanpiano (09/10/13 06:36 AM)
_________________________
Working on:
Kapustin - Sonata-Fantasy op.39 - Movement 4
Liszt - Piano Sonata
Ravel - Ondine

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#2148613 - 09/12/13 06:10 AM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Kuanpiano]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2842
@Kuanpiano,

This may be a little OT, however, I see that you are now "working on" Chopin's 3rd sonata which is a personal favorite of mine and can be considered to be one of Chopin's greatest masterpieces.

It happens to be one of those works I will never tire of hearing with all of its heartfelt soaring melodies, deft passagework, and, the powerful and climactic final movement which is certainly beyond words.

I would encourage others here (including the OP) to post their own recordings of these pieces (including the 4th scherzo in this thread) so that we get the full spectrum of what Chopin has to offer which might also better demonstrate the discussions of the score.

As of now with a dominant R.H. injury (primarily due to overuse with the mouse and typing at the computer) I cannot post any recordings although listening to these pieces will have to do.

Extra note:

Here's an excellent recording (very underrated in my opinion) of the 3rd sonata by Emil Gilels:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yHIkXz98kY

Now, back to the 4th scherzo... even though my favorite has always been the 3rd!

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#2148873 - 09/12/13 04:03 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: pv88]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19999
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: pv88
....I would encourage others here (including the OP) to post their own recordings of these pieces (including the 4th scherzo in this thread) so that we get the full spectrum of what Chopin has to offer which might also better demonstrate the discussions of the score....

Not to be a party pooper or debbie downer grin ....but except for performances by the uppest echelon of pianists (of whom we might have some here, to be sure), I think the main thing we'd learn from people's performances of the 4th Scherzo is how hard it is and what we can't quite do. I doubt we'd get anything like what you're saying from most performances.

Signed,
One who has actually ventured to perform the piece smile

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#2148960 - 09/12/13 06:02 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: pv88]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2173
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: pv88
@Kuanpiano,

This may be a little OT, however, I see that you are now "working on" Chopin's 3rd sonata which is a personal favorite of mine and can be considered to be one of Chopin's greatest masterpieces.

It happens to be one of those works I will never tire of hearing with all of its heartfelt soaring melodies, deft passagework, and, the powerful and climactic final movement which is certainly beyond words.

I would encourage others here (including the OP) to post their own recordings of these pieces (including the 4th scherzo in this thread) so that we get the full spectrum of what Chopin has to offer which might also better demonstrate the discussions of the score.

As of now with a dominant R.H. injury (primarily due to overuse with the mouse and typing at the computer) I cannot post any recordings although listening to these pieces will have to do.

Extra note:

Here's an excellent recording (very underrated in my opinion) of the 3rd sonata by Emil Gilels:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yHIkXz98kY

Now, back to the 4th scherzo... even though my favorite has always been the 3rd!

Thank you for the post, pv88! It's actually a funny story, I have the Gilels recording on my phone...and I was working while listening to music 2 or 3 months ago....and it started playing. I was totally taken aback by it...and then I started working on it. Gilels is my favourite, he's one of the few that doesn't play the first movement so brutally...I was listening to another pianist on youtube who brought out the contrast between the primary material and the second subject a bit too much...it sounded like Prokofiev's 6th sonata.

Hopefully I'll have it up to performance standard, because I have a peformance coming up in less than a month and it needs to be ready! When I get a recording ready, I will definitely share it.

As for the fourth, I'm coming back to it again, and am hoping to do a better job with it this time. I will post a recording when it's ready too. And yes, I have performed it before, so some things are coming back pretty quickly!

@Mark - I think there are some things that can be grasped by amateur performances. For example: is the "mood" of the piece joyful and optimistic, or should the overall mood be more ... mature, reminiscing about happier times? There are many approaches to the piece which can be conveyed to the listener despite not having a perfect technique. I know that both of us have musical ideas despite not being supreme technicians! (well, I'm not one for sure)
_________________________
Working on:
Kapustin - Sonata-Fantasy op.39 - Movement 4
Liszt - Piano Sonata
Ravel - Ondine

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#2149043 - 09/12/13 09:12 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Kuanpiano]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2842
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Thank you for the post, pv88! It's actually a funny story, I have the Gilels recording on my phone...and I was working while listening to music 2 or 3 months ago....and it started playing. I was totally taken aback by it...and then I started working on it. Gilels is my favourite, he's one of the few that doesn't play the first movement so brutally... [etc]

Hopefully I'll have it up to performance standard, because I have a peformance coming up in less than a month and it needs to be ready! When I get a recording ready, I will definitely share it.


@Kuanpiano,

Thanks for your reply as I agree that Gilels really does the 3rd sonata some real justice in regards to a tempo that is not too quick in the first movement and everything is performed with attention to detail and sound. Far too many pianists appear to race through it as if it were an "Etude" and this inevitably just destroys the musical content. It is nice to hear this piece played moderately but with a great sense of feeling and nuance.

Also, another great performance of the 3rd sonata would be the one by Van Cliburn and since there is no recording of this posted at YouTube here's a link of the reissued CD that contains it:

Van Cliburn - CD recording

Also, even better, here is the original LP disc for the above:

Van Cliburn - LP disc

Note the image of the back cover with the extra notes which even has several illustrations from the score itself.

I currently own many of the original Cliburn LP's.

Do look forward to your recording!

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#2149045 - 09/12/13 09:15 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Kuanpiano]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8113
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
@Mark - I think there are some things that can be grasped by amateur performances. For example: is the "mood" of the piece joyful and optimistic, or should the overall mood be more ... mature, reminiscing about happier times? There are many approaches to the piece which can be conveyed to the listener despite not having a perfect technique. I know that both of us have musical ideas despite not being supreme technicians! (well, I'm not one for sure)

I, for one, am not too crazy about listening to any amateur recording of any late Chopin, especially this piece. In fact, there are very few recordings of this that I will listen to at all, probably 3 or 4 in total.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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