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#2147473 - 09/10/13 10:25 AM I want to compose but...
saratogaUSA Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/22/08
Posts: 8
I am a professional pianist and want to compose a piece for strings quartet.

I havent got too much knowledge about composition as composers here have.

NEED BOOK NAME SUGGESTIONS TO LEARN.

THANKS!


Edited by saratogaUSA (09/10/13 10:47 AM)

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#2147525 - 09/10/13 11:41 AM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7522
Loc: New York City
...I suspect a troll. Surely a professional musician would not need to go onto the Internet and cry inarticulately for advice on a matter like this.

I'll wait to see what others say.
_________________________
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Polyphonist

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#2147556 - 09/10/13 12:20 PM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
saratogaUSA Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/22/08
Posts: 8
i said pro pianist, not COMPOSER and this is not a "cry"

you are right, professional musicians goes to a library and search unconsciously for their needs out of hundreds of books and waste a lot of time while doing that.

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#2147575 - 09/10/13 01:12 PM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5223
Loc: Europe
Saratoga,

It's quite difficult to actually give you any meaningful reply... At least I can't, cause I don't know any "101 course on how to compose".

Usually what people do is that they start copying other works and ideas and slowly the develop their own style... And of course in order to compose for strings you need to know what strings can and can't play.

That said would you like to explain a little better what you feel is missing (your shortcomings) and what you're looking for?

Perhaps others know of books that offer a guideline on how to compose (in fact I remember a couple of members posting such links), but I can't be of help in this way, I'm afraid.
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2147588 - 09/10/13 01:37 PM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: Nikolas]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7522
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: saratogaUSA
i said pro pianist, not COMPOSER

I didn't say composer either.

Originally Posted By: saratogaUSA
and this is not a "cry"

Indeed it is. You put half your post in CAPITAL LETTERS which implies SHOUTING.

And it is also inarticulate. Your sentences are incoherent and disjointed. "I am a professional pianist and want to compose a piece for strings quartet." Strings quartet? What is that? "I havent got too much knowledge about composition as composers here have." You have left out the apostrophe in "haven't", in addition to the second half of the sentence not agreeing with the first half. "NEED BOOK NAME SUGGESTIONS TO LEARN." Here you start screaming and demanding like a child, and your sentence has no subject.

A real professional would conduct themselves with a little more maturity and self-respect, even online.

Originally Posted By: saratogaUSA
you are right, professional musicians goes to a library and search unconsciously for their needs out of hundreds of books and waste a lot of time while doing that.

Maybe you don't understand a library filing system, but you must understand that the rest of the population does. And I would not have taken issue if you had asked on this forum politely and coherently, and explained yourself a little more.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2147652 - 09/10/13 02:57 PM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5223
Loc: Europe
Polyphonist: What if... dare I say, the OP is NOT native English, or American? Could it be that he failed to omit the "s" from strings? Come on...

And what if, just if... he's not accustomed to the Internet ideal of SHOUTING VERY LOUD IN CAPITAL LETTERS!
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2147661 - 09/10/13 03:08 PM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: Nikolas]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7522
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Polyphonist: What if... dare I say, the OP is NOT native English, or American? Could it be that he failed to omit the "s" from strings? Come on...

And what if, just if... he's not accustomed to the Internet ideal of SHOUTING VERY LOUD IN CAPITAL LETTERS!

For some reason I doubt that he's not native English. Part of this may stem from the fact that his username contains the letters "USA."

And I wasn't under the impression that SHOUTING VERY LOUD IN CAPITAL LETTERS was an ideal anywhere, let alone on a supposedly intelligent and educated classical music discussion board. wink
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2147684 - 09/10/13 03:40 PM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
Sand Tiger Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/12
Posts: 995
Loc: Southern California
It is an odd request. On the off chance that it is real, or some others reading along are looking for advice, I would echo Nikolas' sentiments. Start with derivative work, writing in a style that a person likes. For a pianist with strong sight reading skills, studying and deconstructing scores can be a powerful way to learn.

A pro pianist of any kind almost certainly has friends that are composers or mentors. Ask those contacts in person, or get a referral to another person. That would be way, way better than any book, or asking strangers on the Internet.

One mystery is why no background information is given. Pro? What kind of pro? What kind of musical education? Almost all classically trained pianists study theory and composition. That kind of person wouldn't need a beginner's book on composition, they already own one or more. A pop or jazz pianist almost certainly has many friends in the music business because that is the primary way to get paying gigs, and many would see a beginner's book as a complete waste of time.
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my piano uploads

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#2147688 - 09/10/13 03:44 PM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: Sand Tiger]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7522
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Sand Tiger
It is an odd request. On the off chance that it is real, or some others reading along are looking for advice, I would echo Nikolas' sentiments. Start with derivative work, writing in a style that a person likes. For a pianist with strong sight reading skills, studying and deconstructing scores can be a powerful way to learn.

A pro pianist of any kind almost certainly has friends that are composers or mentors. Ask those contacts in person, or get a referral to another person. That would be way, way better than any book, or asking strangers on the Internet.

One mystery is why no background information is given. Pro? What kind of pro? What kind of musical education? Almost all classically trained pianists study theory and composition. That kind of person wouldn't need a beginner's book on composition, they already own one or more. A pop or jazz pianist almost certainly has many friends in the music business because that is the primary way to get paying gigs, and many would see a beginner's book as a complete waste of time.

Sand Tiger has echoed the thoughts that I was too lazy to write out. You have no contacts anywhere, saratoga? No one you could ask, nowhere your brilliant career has led you that could help you get started? Nothing better to do than lament to us of your plight, we who do not know you and probably aren't interested in knowing you after seeing the way you post?

A quick glance over this user's previous posts confirm my suspicion of a troll, and practically put it beyond all doubt. His blessedly small post history, in addition to not containing a single word of value to anyone, contains such absurdities as a request for "the complete conservatory repertoire" from "beginner to graduation," and a query as to what the best sheet music is (listing Peters, Ricordi, and Dover (!) as his candidates), all replete with grammar and syntax errors galore. And he claims to be a "professional."
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2147694 - 09/10/13 03:54 PM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
stalefleas Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/16/13
Posts: 249
If you're looking for a formal approach to composition training, you could try looking up the syllabus for a composition course at some university. Usually syllabi include information on the necessary textbooks. If you just want to compose for a string quartet you might start by researching the ranges on these instruments and also looking into what sort of things are playable on these instruments. You might even benefit from taking a few violin lessons. A general understanding of how to play these instruments will help you to know what is possible and impossible to achieve from a player.

If you do decide to take lessons, tell your teacher you don't really want to become a player but are hoping to compose. A decent teacher will know what information is relevant and what's not relevant, and can help illustrate by showing you the various techniques used on these instruments. Also many string players have played with other string players, so even if your teacher is a cellist, she can tell you how her instrument is different from a violin, etc.

Also if you are a professional, I would imagine you have some friends who are also musicians. Do you know any string players? If so you might not have to pay a dime and get most of your necessary information.

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#2147744 - 09/10/13 04:47 PM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2703
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
I'm glad I didn't see this until now. I'm not sure a serious answer is called for until and unless SaratogaUSA answers a few questions. I find myself wondering why a pianist would want to start at composing by tackling a string quartet. Perhaps a friend is getting married and an offer of piano playing services as wedding gift was rebuffed because they'd already decided to hire a quartet. Plan B was to write something for that quartet to play. So my speculation as to motivation is to fulfill a social obligation.

However, to seriously answer the OP's question we need to know what he/she knows with regard to theory and orchestration and what style of music they wish to compose in. Basically the question is one of where are you now and where do you want to go? We'll be happy to help you get there if you provide more information.

BTW, if all you need is a quartet for a social occasion I have one already composed and ready to go (it would be perfect for a wedding). I'll sell you a score, set of parts and performance rights for one performance for $50. That would certainly be cheaper than you learning how to compose a quartet. And just so you don't ask, no you cannot put your name on it.

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#2147789 - 09/10/13 05:31 PM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7522
Loc: New York City
Hmm...it looks like the new PADS outbreak is extending into the composers forum as well. Or is this simply a case of the troll-and-run technique? grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2147819 - 09/10/13 06:15 PM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
saratogaUSA Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/22/08
Posts: 8
Instead of talking jibber-jabber like polyphonist do here, thanks to people who advice to me precious information. When a person talks too much like he does here, we understand that he or she is a illiterate person. Knowing the instruments and their capabilities i think one step to composing.. And the knowledge of the classical forms like sonata form helps to construct a composition, i heard before that analyzing the pieces really helps to understand composing technics.

My post doesnt have to be valuable, i asked what i want to learn, read it or shut up. İf everyone asks something to their friends, what is this forum for? And my english doesnt have to be perfect as this wise guy, clever people always understand what you mean.
I am very curious about orchestration books, there are a few..

Last words: polyphonist you really have a verbal diarrhea.

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#2147826 - 09/10/13 06:35 PM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7522
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: saratogaUSA
When a person talks too much like he does here, we understand that he or she is a illiterate person.

"A illiterate person." Oh, the irony.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2147876 - 09/10/13 08:24 PM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
stalefleas Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/16/13
Posts: 249
Personally I don't think it matters if the OP is a troll or not. Innocent until proven guilty, for one, and for two, it does not hurt to answer this question. Someone else might have the same or a similar question and could find this forum online and find some useful information as a result.

Just my two cents.

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#2147949 - 09/10/13 11:36 PM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
synergy543 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/11
Posts: 102
Such a scandalous question! No wonder the skeptics suspect a troll. Oh well....

I would recommend the book "Musical Composition" by Ellis B. Kohs who used to teach at USC. The book takes you through stepwise projects that might help get you started off composing. Even the skeptics might find it of interest.
http://www.amazon.com/Musical-Compositio...omposition+Kohs

Another idea would be just to take some very simple pieces and copy the form and style by changing the notes and progressions but otherwise following the patterns of the composition. This is a great exercise and you'll be certain to learn a great deal. Start out simple and expand from there.

In addition, you might consider getting a copy of Sibelius and the new Wallander NotePerformer as this combination will allow you extensive experimentation with various instruments.

And most of all, have fun.


Edited by synergy543 (09/10/13 11:37 PM)

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#2147954 - 09/10/13 11:44 PM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5223
Loc: Europe
You know what?

I've come to love this place, and especially the composers forum for obvious reasons! I do NOT like such harsh and uninvited reactions to new members! Of course I'm a simple member as anyone here, but in all honesty if I was Saratoga I'd simply never come back.

Why would we want to turn away any new member is beyond me...
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2147963 - 09/11/13 12:13 AM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: Nikolas]
synergy543 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/11
Posts: 102
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Why would we want to turn away any new member is beyond me...

Yeah, I don't get it either.

[EDIT] But then...considering the post below, maybe the skeptics were right? Though, I don't mind answering in either case. Maybe the information will be of use to the next Beethoven should he come along.

So there Nikolas, ...You see? THAT's how another skeptic could be born (should I choose not to answer to the next new member).


Edited by synergy543 (09/11/13 02:28 AM)

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#2148001 - 09/11/13 02:13 AM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: stalefleas]
saratogaUSA Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/22/08
Posts: 8
Originally Posted By: stalefleas
Personally I don't think it matters if the OP is a troll or not. Innocent until proven guilty, for one, and for two, it does not hurt to answer this question. Someone else might have the same or a similar question and could find this forum online and find some useful information as a result.

Just my two cents.


Perfect answer for me.

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#2148041 - 09/11/13 05:07 AM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
Michael Sayers Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 891
Loc: Stockholms ln, Sverige
Originally Posted By: saratogaUSA
Originally Posted By: stalefleas
Personally I don't think it matters if the OP is a troll or not. Innocent until proven guilty, for one, and for two, it does not hurt to answer this question. Someone else might have the same or a similar question and could find this forum online and find some useful information as a result.

Just my two cents.


Perfect answer for me.


I would bet that the majority of pianoworld members never post at all, or if they do it is only one time (the reason they joined) and they are finished - hence, Polyphonist, it is not a surprise if a poster has contributed only a handful of posts in the course of several years.

There are not any English grammar requirements here, saratogaUSA has posted very little over the years (a profoundly patient troll he would be!), and I find it hard to imagine how frustrating it might be to come here for help and then be accused of being a troll.

About composition books, though I've consulted certain titles on some things I haven't studied music/composition theory from books and am a bit of an oddball around here in this and some other ways. I believe it is best to learn directly from studying the scores of published music and doing it (the composing and notating) and that somehow this is combined with being a performer and being equipped to inwardly do/hear everything in any key - and to know fully what the tonal content is - and this combination allows one to successfully push through the composing and notating process.

Theory and composition books might be best for references in order to be able to communicate with words about the music ("what type of a cadence is that?", "what type of chord progression is that?", et cetera).

I would suggest starting off composing for the piano and only expanding or using other instrumentation if another palette definitely is needed. Surely when one knows all the ins-and-outs of playing an instrument and all the different types of touch and sonority then one can compose for it much more persuasively than for a different instrument - and probably performers will pick up on this (the piano compositions will be "pianistic").

That isn't what was asked for but I hope it helps!


M.

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#2148140 - 09/11/13 10:55 AM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
eboats Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/19/12
Posts: 10
Loc: seattle, wa
Geez, give SaratogaUSA a break. Polyphonist has got some issues alright.

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#2148160 - 09/11/13 11:34 AM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7522
Loc: New York City
I do have issues, and one of them is this member.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2148162 - 09/11/13 11:40 AM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Woah woah... Polyphnist, what the heck, man? You don't need to be so harsh! Give people the benefit of the doubt instead of being such a hostile creature.

On the other hand, I don't understand. I'm not even a professional and I could easily write a string quartet. It might not be great, but I could write one. You're a professional musician. You should have no trouble getting started.

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#2148562 - 09/12/13 01:56 AM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: JoelW]
stalefleas Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/16/13
Posts: 249
Am I the only one who thinks it's somewhat sad that the most popular thread on here lately is one of controversy? A lot of threads get started on here with legitimate pieces... Some of them are very good and don't even get any replies. As for the bad ones, I understand people not wanting to give a negative opinion but really shouldn't we have more advice to give in those situations? Maybe this would be a good subject for another thread but this conversation has really brought this issue to my attention.

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#2148564 - 09/12/13 01:56 AM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
stalefleas Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/16/13
Posts: 249
Then again I am new here. This has probably been brought up numerous times before to no avail.

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#2148568 - 09/12/13 02:22 AM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5223
Loc: Europe
This is the nature of life... How many times do you see a happy story, with no controversy (or violence, or sex) in the movies? Or the news? Or the Internet for that matter?

It's the nature of the beast, unfortunately.

That said there are a few happy occasions that I recall where something good brought up a nicely going thread. More over there are a few huge examples of ENORMOUS threads going on, especially in the ABF (Chopin thread, etc)...
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2154253 - 09/20/13 07:02 AM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: saratogaUSA]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 1990
Loc: Rocky Mountains
People....There is an ignore button on a person's profile.
Some people.... I won't say who... are leaders in that category.
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2155356 - 09/22/13 03:58 AM Re: I want to compose but... [Re: rnaple]
Michael Sayers Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 891
Loc: Stockholms ln, Sverige
I hope that the OP returns at some point with a piano composition. Then certain persons might be viewed as having trolled the OP wink


M.

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