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#2147992 - 09/11/13 01:54 AM Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Mechanical resurfacing piano hammer by Russian technician Stas Cukanov (The city of Novokuznetsk, RF)
Stas wrote: "no regrets and I will gladly published my idea, in the hope that it will benefit our cause"
http://youtu.be/oEo3X1-K6M0
http://youtu.be/5PkqiBWugGY
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2147993 - 09/11/13 01:56 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21926
Loc: Oakland
Cute!
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2147998 - 09/11/13 02:11 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: BDB]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: BDB
Cute!

Hi,BDB
That's it. But I believe that will be cleaned ALL surface of a hammer use abrasive strip. But we must delete only a grooves. It will remove a layer of useful felt
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2148004 - 09/11/13 02:23 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21926
Loc: Oakland
How good a job it will do depends on how it is held, and how the hammer is held, among other things. I would expect that no matter how careful you are, some touching up will be necessary. It is not clear how to replace the sandpaper. I replace the sandpaper at least once when I sand a set of hammers.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2148008 - 09/11/13 02:37 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: BDB]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: BDB
I would expect that no matter how careful you are, some touching up will be necessary. It is not clear how to replace the sandpaper. I replace the sandpaper at least once when I sand a set of hammers.

Sorry,BDB,I am not the author of the idea. The author has Stas from Novokuznetsk. He has a Russian patent on it and the two prototypes which we see on a video.
I agree with you that there may be very inconvenient for the use of it.
What we can touch?
With what force?
As will fixed hammer? etc
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2148085 - 09/11/13 08:31 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Maximillyan]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3635
I saw a few times techs are just sanding manually, without such a tool. What is the advantage of this tool? It might be to introduce more accuracy to the sanding, but has that actually been tested?
_________________________

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#2148097 - 09/11/13 09:12 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: wouter79]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: wouter79
I saw a few times techs are just sanding manually, without such a tool. What is the advantage of this tool? It might be to introduce more accuracy to the sanding, but has that actually been tested?



Manual processing of grinding (just sanding manually) is a classic. This applies to almost all technicians. Some work specially manufactured tools by manufacturers' piano. I for example try make use by women nail files.

http://youtu.be/pvlNgnhXVug
The inventor Stas has only two devices and probably does not yet have any statistics of what much better him "grater" or the factory hand tool equipment
I think that it is theoretically possible to have a number of advantages:
1 it's can make amateur man
2 layer is removed evenly
However, I caught myself thinking that if this were the case, then perhaps it would been already invented a long time ago professional technicans
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2148133 - 09/11/13 10:35 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Maximillyan]
David, Las Vegas Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 211
Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
Many years ago at a NEECSO convention there was a member with a booth that had a similar sanding device attached to a electric knife like what would be used for meat carving but with the blades removed and the sanding reciprocating device in it's place. At the time I thought it to be a real time saving device ( i was a brand new member at time). After learning how to hand file hammers by a kind chapter member I have found I can use more control and care for each pass of the sanding paddle or strips to remove as little as possible and restore the best tone possible to the used part. The machine would bludgeon the shape at the crown and remove too much material. It might have looked good but I found it to be damaging.
_________________________
David Chadwick RPT
Las Vegas, Nevada
1923 Steinway "M"
1931 Mason Hamlin AA

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#2148144 - 09/11/13 11:04 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Maximillyan]
kpembrook Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1347
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Mechanical resurfacing piano hammer by Russian technician Stas Cukanov (The city of Novokuznetsk, RF)
Stas wrote: "no regrets and I will gladly published my idea, in the hope that it will benefit our cause"
http://youtu.be/oEo3X1-K6M0
http://youtu.be/5PkqiBWugGY


Unfortunately, the machine does not put the correct profile on the hammer. It grinds down the top surface at least as much as the sides and probably more. It should be the other way around.

The common mistake of beginners is to work on getting out the string marks. This makes the profile striking the string too flat. Instead the work should focus on creating the correct egg-shaped profile. This is done by applying pressure at the 3:00 and 9:00 positions on the hammer (when viewed from the side and the striking point = 12:00) and removing a layer of felt up to the striking point. When this is done properly, the string marks are automatically removed.

The concept is similar to the wooden Russian dolls that have another doll inside and another doll inside that . . . . etc. The goal is to get to the new hammer that is "inside" the existing hammer.

Ingenious machine but totally wrong concept.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2148145 - 09/11/13 11:09 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: David, Las Vegas]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: David, Las Vegas
Many years ago at a NEECSO convention there was a member with a booth that had a similar sanding device attached to a electric knife like what would be used for meat carving but with the blades removed and the sanding reciprocating device in it's place. At the time I thought it to be a real time saving device ( i was a brand new member at time). After learning how to hand file hammers by a kind chapter member I have found I can use more control and care for each pass of the sanding paddle or strips to remove as little as possible and restore the best tone possible to the used part. The machine would bludgeon the shape at the crown and remove too much material. It might have looked good but I found it to be damaging.

David,can you place a link to this tool or photo?
The machine would bludgeon the shape at the crown and remove too much material. It might have looked good but I found it to be damaging.
I'm agree with you need make only handle job without a similar sanding
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2148151 - 09/11/13 11:25 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: David, Las Vegas]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: David, Las Vegas
Many years ago at a NEECSO convention there was a member with a booth that had a similar sanding device attached to a electric knife like what would be used for meat carving but with the blades removed and the sanding reciprocating device in it's place. At the time I thought it to be a real time saving device ( i was a brand new member at time). After learning how to hand file hammers by a kind chapter member I have found I can use more control and care for each pass of the sanding paddle or strips to remove as little as possible and restore the best tone possible to the used part. The machine would bludgeon the shape at the crown and remove too much material. It might have looked good but I found it to be damaging.



Some have used a manual form of the Russian technique, also a time saver: a handheld strip of thin sandpaper in a rapid "shoe-shine" motion; it may not be as hard on the crowns as the various electric gizmos that have been tried, but the result is usually a disproportionate hammer. I suspect that the potential exists for the same problem with the Russian tool demonstrated in the video.

The best method is, unfortunately, the slow one: the sanding paddle or the similar method minus the paddle.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#2148566 - 09/12/13 02:06 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Maximillyan]
David, Las Vegas Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 211
Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: David, Las Vegas
Many years ago at a NEECSO convention there was a member with a booth that had a similar sanding device attached to a electric knife like what would be used for meat carving but with the blades removed and the sanding reciprocating device in it's place. At the time I thought it to be a real time saving device ( i was a brand new member at time). After learning how to hand file hammers by a kind chapter member I have found I can use more control and care for each pass of the sanding paddle or strips to remove as little as possible and restore the best tone possible to the used part. The machine would bludgeon the shape at the crown and remove too much material. It might have looked good but I found it to be damaging.

David,can you place a link to this tool or photo?
The machine would bludgeon the shape at the crown and remove too much material. It might have looked good but I found it to be damaging.
I'm agree with you need make only handle job without a similar sanding


Maximilllyan,
Sorry but it was almost 20 years ago when I attended my first convention. I never saw the machine used again by other technicians. I have no photo's of the tool and do not have a record of the inventor.
_________________________
David Chadwick RPT
Las Vegas, Nevada
1923 Steinway "M"
1931 Mason Hamlin AA

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#2148618 - 09/12/13 07:11 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
It is easy to cut thru shoulders that way. Still a time saver for some type of job.

To be finished free hand anyway.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2148696 - 09/12/13 10:30 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: David, Las Vegas]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: David, Las Vegas
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: David, Las Vegas
Many years ago at a NEECSO convention there was a member with a booth that had a similar sanding device attached to a electric knife like what would be used for meat carving but with the blades removed and the sanding reciprocating device in it's place. At the time I thought it to be a real time saving device ( i was a brand new member at time). After learning how to hand file hammers by a kind chapter member I have found I can use more control and care for each pass of the sanding paddle or strips to remove as little as possible and restore the best tone possible to the used part. The machine would bludgeon the shape at the crown and remove too much material. It might have looked good but I found it to be damaging.

David,can you place a link to this tool or photo?
The machine would bludgeon the shape at the crown and remove too much material. It might have looked good but I found it to be damaging.
I'm agree with you need make only handle job without a similar sanding


Maximilllyan,
Sorry but it was almost 20 years ago when I attended my first convention. I never saw the machine used again by other technicians. I have no photo's of the tool and do not have a record of the inventor.

thank,David. Very Sorry. Perhaps our technicians know something.
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2148700 - 09/12/13 10:34 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
It is easy to cut thru shoulders that way. Still a time saver for some type of job. To be finished free hand anyway.

Hi, Isaac.Yes,but it should not hurt quality
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2148749 - 09/12/13 12:33 PM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
+-... It is used for hammers that should be replaced but are thick yet, and piano have no budget.

I just made a small gig, and use it very occasionally.

The advantage is no dust, and speed.

For low price old pianos in some dealer shops.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2148966 - 09/12/13 06:12 PM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Mechanical resurfacing piano hammer by Russian technician Stas Cukanov (The city of Novokuznetsk, RF)
Stas wrote: "no regrets and I will gladly published my idea, in the hope that it will benefit our cause"
http://youtu.be/oEo3X1-K6M0
http://youtu.be/5PkqiBWugGY


The design is fun, but the job done is ridioculous, showing he have no idea what is hammer shaping intended for.

I like the move of the tool !
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2149028 - 09/12/13 08:26 PM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Maximillyan]
Craig Hair Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/03/11
Posts: 210
Loc: Holyoke, MA
You have my vote for the gadget hall of fame.
_________________________
Craig Hair
Hampshire Piano
Holyoke, MA

hampshirepiano.co
soundboardrecrown.com

If I seem slow, I simply must be stopped

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#2149035 - 09/12/13 08:45 PM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Maximillyan]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
I much prefer the wooden action model. I await competition from WN&G.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2149123 - 09/13/13 12:09 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Maximillyan]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
My vote for the gadget hall of fame goes to Mellow Tones' Voice-o-matic. Magnetic backed needle strips. Position accordingly. Voice by playing the chromatic scale. whome wow


Edited by bkw58 (09/13/13 12:12 AM)
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#2149177 - 09/13/13 02:36 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
+-... It is used for hammers that should be replaced but are thick yet, and piano have no budget.

I just made a small gig, and use it very occasionally.

The advantage is no dust, and speed.

For low price old pianos in some dealer shops.

Have you such (russian tech.) tools ,Isaac?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2149178 - 09/13/13 02:38 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Craig Hair]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Craig Hair
You have my vote for the gadget hall of fame.

thanks,Craig Hair
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2149179 - 09/13/13 02:40 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
I much prefer the wooden action model. I await competition from WN&G.

Hi,Marty.
What is thing "WN&G"?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2149194 - 09/13/13 04:37 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
+-... It is used for hammers that should be replaced but are thick yet, and piano have no budget.

I just made a small gig , and use it very occasionally.

The advantage is no dust, and speed.

For low price old pianos in some dealer shops.

Have you such (russian tech.) tools ,Isaac?


No, it is a Demel tool with a cylindrical abrasive installed on a small table.

it is just to take out a lot of material, before workinf free hand.

I change the hammers if this is necessary so I do not have much use for it
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2149228 - 09/13/13 06:46 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
+-... It is used for hammers that should be replaced but are thick yet, and piano have no budget.

I just made a small gig , and use it very occasionally.

The advantage is no dust, and speed.

For low price old pianos in some dealer shops.

Have you such (russian tech.) tools ,Isaac?


No, it is a Demel tool with a cylindrical abrasive installed on a small table.

I was understood you, Isaac
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2149284 - 09/13/13 08:31 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2149292 - 09/13/13 08:47 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Maximillyan]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Hi Max,

I was just being humorous.

The first example had all of the look of a wood, hand-build, piano action part. Wessell, Nickel & Gross produces composite actions and parts. It just seemed fun to add to the debate of wood parts versus composite parts.

http://www.wessellnickelandgross.com/

In the early 20th century, WN&G was a very respected action builder. The rebirth of the company, as a composite action manufacturer, is a subsidiary of Mason & Hamlin.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2149295 - 09/13/13 08:52 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek

thank, Isaac, I'll give your link for Stas
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2149296 - 09/13/13 08:54 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Hi Max,

I was just being humorous.

The first example had all of the look of a wood, hand-build, piano action part. Wessell, Nickel & Gross produces composite actions and parts. It just seemed fun to add to the debate of wood parts versus composite parts.

http://www.wessellnickelandgross.com/

In the early 20th century, WN&G was a very respected action builder. The rebirth of the company, as a composite action manufacturer, is a subsidiary of Mason & Hamlin.

thank,Marty I was understood your JOKE!
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2149320 - 09/13/13 09:42 AM Re: Mechanical resurfacing felt hammer by Russian technician [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek

thank, Isaac, I'll give your link for Stas

As you see it is just to clean an take out the part of tfelt that is less easy to file by hand.

It is very delicate to do that in any case.

Here the hammers are really thick - but that is a budget question generally. (while some very old felts are good I admit, a heat and a quality question)

That is when the German hammer makers realize that their own felts did not pass the time as well as 60-80 years old felts that they decided to make a study on the causes, in the 94's or so.



Edited by Olek (09/13/13 09:45 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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