Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
Who's Online
152 registered (Alexander Borro, arununni, accordeur, Anita Potter, ajames, 40 invisible), 1706 Guests and 19 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#2144168 - 09/04/13 05:41 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: keystring]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7418
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: keystring
A note starts, continues and ends. Note 1 is followed by note 2 which is followed by note 3. Something happens between note 1 and note 2. Either there is a silence between them (basic definition of staccato), or note 2 starts just as note 3 ends, or note 1 blends briefly into note 3 before it disappears (moving into legato). How long note 1 lasts to create these possibilities depends on how long the damper stays up before silencing that string. This is done either by holding down the piano key, or through the sustain pedal.

I think this is what you are describing John, correct?

Unfortunately not. I'm trying to bring to this discussion the importance of the sound as the damper ends the note, and how this is done.

The damper is not an on and off switch. How rapidly it comes down, and how far it comes down and begins to touch the vibrating string, has a huge impact on the sound at the end of the note. The end of the note is just as important as the beginning of the note (ie, the attack sound). Believe it or not, your ear hears that, whether your brain differentiates it or not, and it does impact the quality of sound produced by the pianist.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2144251 - 09/04/13 08:27 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3250
Loc: Virginia, USA
I have just tried this on a digital (and will compare it to an acoustic a bit later.)

On this old (20 years) but originally good quality digital, it makes a considerable difference how I lift off the key.

If I do so very quickly, I get an abrupt end to the tone.

If I do so more carefully, I get a little bit of a taper to the sound.

On this digital, I do not get fine gradations of taper. I get basically a binary choice between choppy and tapered. It may be that I can get a finer distinction with an acoustic or a more modern digital, I'll test that too.

keystring plays violin I believe, and my primary instrument is trombone. On either one we can start a note piannissimo, crescendo gradually to ff, and decrescendo back down. That option isn't available on a single note on piano, though of course you can do it over a phrase. But I see you can affect the ending of a note to some extent (and maybe I've done so without consciously realizing it.)
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#2144358 - 09/05/13 12:03 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys
Thanks Greg for taking your time to explain the escapement mechanism from the ergonomic point of view, it is very enlightening.

So if I understand you correctly:
The similarity between a digital and an acoustic are: if you press a key, it makes noise, if you hit the key harder, it sounds louder, if you hold the key longer, the noise last longer, but the similarity ends there.

The subtle escapement mechanism is not (at least no properly) replicated in the digitals. Since some/many of the advanced techniques are built based on the escapement mechanism, thus it cannot be developed on a digital.

Is this a fair statement to summarize your position?


No, there's more to it than that.

Under current conditions, the factor that influences dynamic shading in an acoustic grand piano action is not brute force, but rather velocity. Speed determines dynamic color, not force. The faster you go down, the louder the sound is on most grand pianos in good regulation, found anywhere in the world. The slower you go down, the quieter sound is. Even if you aim at the same "point of sound" where the let-off is set every single time, you can still get all these dynamic shadings just by altering the speed of the descent. If you change the point you aim for, either a bit higher or lower than the let-off, you get different colors of sound, from transparent to thick. Couple that with changes in the speed of the descent, and you have an enormous range of expression strictly in the sounds produced by a standard grand action.

I have yet to see any electronic action regulated to this degree of responsiveness. Heck, most of them are "pressure-sensitive", which means that their "point of sound" is set to the very bottom of the key! This is deleterious in so many ways, physiologically/ musically/technically, I don't have time to list them all. I will say that, if you think it's a matter of force, then you are doing too much. My teachers were very fond of saying that "fortissimo should feel like pianissimo!" even on an electronic keyboard. Otherwise, you're going to get injured.

When the player moves from such a keyboard to an acoustic instrument, this kind of bad keystroke timing actually encourages a harsh, inexpressive sound, and an inability to control the dynamic shadings and articulation on every note. It's one of the complaints I have about most pop and jazz players. They have a very poor ability to 1- control their articulation , 2- they can't really move in speed with much consistency, and 3- they can't control their tone color all.

This is the kind of playing we are supposed to be encouraging in our students? No mater who or what they are???
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2144360 - 09/05/13 12:07 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: TimR]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: TimR

That option isn't available on a single note on piano, though of course you can do it over a phrase. But I see you can affect the ending of a note to some extent (and maybe I've done so without consciously realizing it.)


And so we finally begin to discuss in practical terms the engineering design limitations of the electronic keyboard you are playing at the time.

Amazing how it doesn't begin to mimic what actually happens on an acoustic piano.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2144386 - 09/05/13 12:54 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: TimR]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: TimR


That varies from digital to digital. It does not seem to be a problem on my P500; I've played some Clavinovas that felt that way.



As I said, there is no industry standard for these switching assemblies. And they cannot be regulated by technicians in the field.

As for the grand actions you've played, these are out of regulation. And they can be adjusted by any competent technician.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2144389 - 09/05/13 12:56 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: laguna_greg]
The Monkeys Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 442
Loc: Vancouver BC
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Heck, most of them are "pressure-sensitive", which means that their "point of sound" is set to the very bottom of the key! This is deleterious in so many ways, physiologically/ musically/technically, I don't have time to list them all.


If I understood it correctly, nowadays, most, if not all, of the broads uses 2 or 3 optical sensors to measure the velocity, not the pressure. But probably true, most people just hit the key with more force all the way to the bottom to get the speed, but many has the same habit on the acoustic too.

Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
I will say that, if you think it's a matter of force, then you are doing too much. My teachers were very fond of saying that "fortissimo should feel like pianissimo!" even on an electronic keyboard. Otherwise, you're going to get injured.


Insightful, thanks!

I am curious, while you help the jazz, pop players to recover, did you convert them to acoustics? Or they just learned to play in a way that doesn't hurt themselves anymore?

Top
#2144407 - 09/05/13 01:25 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
The Monkeys Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 442
Loc: Vancouver BC
I managed to try 5 pianos today grin

1 digital, 3 uprights, and a grand.

The grand has the best dynamic range, it is also the loudest. On all other pianos, you can make them soft (or almost as soft), but you can't make them that loud. Action aside, I think the maximum volume also plays an important role.

One larger upright was also pretty good.

Another upright has a very shallow keys, a bit difficult for me to manage the dynamics.

The third upright has a very heavy action for some reason, I also have difficulties to control the dynamics.

All 4 acoustics feels differently, the similarity is that the when you press down a key, the resistance is not constant, especially when I press the key slowly, the let off feeling is obvious.

I was able to control the dynamics, actually better than at least one upright, on the digital. But the key resistance on the digital is constant, it has the same resistance level from the beginning, until hitting the bottom.

All 5 pianos gave me different feelings, the digital gave me a distinct different feelings, I have to say it is not as lively, probably because the constant resistance.




Top
#2144489 - 09/05/13 07:59 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: laguna_greg]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3250
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Originally Posted By: TimR

That option isn't available on a single note on piano, though of course you can do it over a phrase. But I see you can affect the ending of a note to some extent (and maybe I've done so without consciously realizing it.)


And so we finally begin to discuss in practical terms the engineering design limitations of the electronic keyboard you are playing at the time.


Actually, that's an area where the digital can have an advantage. It's perfectly possible to program them to have any kind of taper on either end of the note, crescendo or decrescendo on one note, or bend the pitch between notes. None of that can be done on the acoustic.

Whether the ability to do different tapers on the end of the note with the damper is a limitation is merely a guess at this point. It can't be a huge advantage on any acoustic - there just isn't enough cushion on the damper nor time between notes - even assuming you don't pedal.

Quote:
Amazing how it doesn't begin to mimic what actually happens on an acoustic piano.


That's really two different concepts.

It remains to be seen how well digital pianos mimic damper release. Modern ones do string resonance pretty well; this is just programming. Mine is an early 80s version, still going strong, but way behind the times.

Inherent in your statement is the idea that the purpose of the digital is to mimic the acoustic. That is not necessarily so. The piano does not mimic the harpsichord, clavichord, or organ; it is its own instrument. The digital may evolve this way as well.

You did point out that playing into the keybed has been said to be an injury risk. I haven't seen any real evidence that anybody is more likely to do that on a digital. But interestingly enough some digitals are designed to allow that. Mine has performance voices (that I never use) that add an additional effect when you do that.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#2144517 - 09/05/13 09:21 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: TimR]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7418
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: TimR
It can't be a huge advantage on any acoustic - there just isn't enough cushion on the damper nor time between notes - even assuming you don't pedal.

Actually, there is, and because of it, this is one of the important differences between artistically musical playing and amateur playing. Many artists pick up on it, without formal training, because, well, they're geniuses. The rest of us rely on someone teaching us to be aware of and how to control this in our playing.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

Top
#2144625 - 09/05/13 01:26 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
AZNpiano Online   happy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5598
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
Originally Posted By: TimR
It can't be a huge advantage on any acoustic - there just isn't enough cushion on the damper nor time between notes - even assuming you don't pedal.

Actually, there is, and because of it, this is one of the important differences between artistically musical playing and amateur playing. Many artists pick up on it, without formal training, because, well, they're geniuses. The rest of us rely on someone teaching us to be aware of and how to control this in our playing.

And it's one of the hardest things to teach piano students!! Pedaling is an art. I just watched a demonstration on Youtube in which the presenter was teaching how to use all 3 pedals at the same time. Most amateur players never get this far in repertoire.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

Top
#2144676 - 09/05/13 03:21 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: John v.d.Brook]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3250
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
Originally Posted By: TimR
It can't be a huge advantage on any acoustic - there just isn't enough cushion on the damper nor time between notes - even assuming you don't pedal.

Actually, there is, and because of it, this is one of the important differences between artistically musical playing and amateur playing. Many artists pick up on it, without formal training, because, well, they're geniuses. The rest of us rely on someone teaching us to be aware of and how to control this in our playing.


I will "listen with big ears" for this.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#2144746 - 09/05/13 05:53 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
The Monkeys Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 442
Loc: Vancouver BC
An interesting article from WSJ

Please note there is a video tab, a stock quote tab(of course it is WSJ), and a comment tab.

Top
#2144935 - 09/05/13 11:18 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
rlinkt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 320
Loc: CA
So now that you have done the experiment, what's your verdict?
- If you are an early stage student, what would you prefer to learn on?
- If you are already an expert, would you prefer to play on a daily basis?

Top
#2145033 - 09/06/13 02:03 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
The Monkeys Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 442
Loc: Vancouver BC
Well, a nice grand is the best, the bigger the better :-), in a big house.

Some uprights I tried, the one in the basement of our church, the one in my uncle's house, the one in my friends home, they all works, but to be honest, they are not very enjoyable. The keys are very heavy, some of them are uneven. Some of them, the let off is a bit too strong to the point that is annoying.

My friend brought an house, came with it was a beautiful looking antique grand piano, but you can only play slow motion on it.

I visit piano dealers whenever I have a chance, any acoustic that feels and sounds better to me than a $1,000 digital, will cost $5,000 or more.

I also discussed with our teacher, her take was:
Having a grand is not enough to make a pianist, having a digital, is not going to destroy one.
She understands the concerns that learning on a digital will form some bad habits, her observation is that doesn't happen. As a student advances, as some point he and she will prefer a good acoustic and she saw no issue with the transition.

rlink, to answer your questions:
- If you are an early stage student, what would you prefer to learn on?
Well, you know my answer if there no constrains.
I think as long as the instrument is "bigger" than the student. Honestly I don't think a 6' grand or a Casio will make a difference to a normal 4 year old.
I do believe it is important to make sure a student does not out grow his instrument, at some point, a good quality acoustic is necessary, for some, at some point, a top quality grand would become a must.

- If you are already an expert, would you prefer to play on a daily basis?
I would guess I could make anything sound impressive since I am an expert, right? Sorry, if I am an expert, I would not have started this thread.

You didn't ask what I like as who I am, let me also answer that:
I would like an instrument that I can enjoy. I really enjoy the grands in the piano stores, I cannot honestly say the same to my friend's antique grand except it is really nice to look at. My uncle's.....

I am still enjoying the digitals, and unfortunately I enjoy the software pianos even better, but let's not go there.

I hope one day, one day I will only like the grands, I might need to practice a lot more to get there.

Thanks everyone that bothered to answer my questions, I better go practice now.

Top
#2145399 - 09/06/13 05:26 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys
Honestly I don't think a 6' grand or a Casio will make a difference to a normal 4 year old.


Good evening. In my opinion there definitely is a difference for a normal 4 year-old. Not just between a grand and a digital but also between an upright and a digital. A four year-old can go under the piano and pluck or strike the strings, he can play a key and listen from below, he can hear the difference when the lid is open or closed, he can see it being tuned, he can see the accumulation of dust. These aspects of a piano definitely are perceived by small kids and suscitate their interest, I would suppose much more than for big kids or adults.

The differences in touch in different parts of the keyboard. The various sounds the piano makes. The imperfections, buzzings for example, or out of tune notes, these all go into a child's mind. The physical volume of the sound.

Top
#2145436 - 09/06/13 07:18 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
The Monkeys Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 442
Loc: Vancouver BC
That aspect.... I have to agree.
I still remember vividly my father's dark room, and the first time I saw the film magically turn into a smiling face. Those Kodak moments I will always remember.

I managed to find a roll of 30mm film and show it to my 7 year old son, he was super excited and brought it to school for show&tell. No students in his class has seen it.

Some people argue nothing can replace the black and white, I agree. But I also love my digital SLR nevertheless.

Continue with the thought, if you paid attention to the parallel thread The future of piano playing?, I can't help to imagine 70 years later, when the mind controlled piano becomes the norm, my son tells his grandson the good old days : "do you know once a upon a time, pianos have keys.....". I probably won't see that day, might be it is a good thing?!

Sorry I couldn't resist.

Top
#2145472 - 09/06/13 09:45 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: TimR]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Originally Posted By: TimR
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
Originally Posted By: TimR

That option isn't available on a single note on piano, though of course you can do it over a phrase. But I see you can affect the ending of a note to some extent (and maybe I've done so without consciously realizing it.)


And so we finally begin to discuss in practical terms the engineering design limitations of the electronic keyboard you are playing at the time.


Actually, that's an area where the digital can have an advantage....That's really two different concepts.


Inherent in your statement is the idea that the purpose of the digital is to mimic the acoustic.

You did point out that playing into the keybed has been said to be an injury risk. I haven't seen any real evidence that anybody is more likely to do that on a digital.


I don't really know why I'm bothering to respond, considering that it's apparent that 1- you haven't really read my posts very carefully, 2- you don't care to, and 3- you don't know anything about the prevalence or cause of injury among keyboard players of any kind. And you haven't bothered to find out.

I pray fervently that you never get to know what I'm talking about personally. In all seriousness, this is not an outcome I'd wish on any anybody who plays seriously.

The reason that it's best if digital keyboards mimic the action of the grand piano is because of neuromuscular efficiency. It is possible to use the grand action in the most efficient way possible, where the least amount of neuromuscular, metabolic energy can expended to produce the most amount of effect, provided that the keystroke timing is performed correctly. The electronic action should at a minimum be able to do this, or better. It should promote as great, or greater, neuromuscular efficiency in the performer. I have not yet seen an example in the field, clinic or lab that actually does this.

Your "answers" about the digital/acoustical taper have nothing to do with the physio-mechanical aspect of playing. That is very unfortunate, because that's precisely the aspect I'm talking about. These are not two different concepts and, to the performer, they cannot be. To make them disparate is to create dysfunction in the technique, and ultimately produce fatigue and injury in the performer.

If you want to argue the point further, then respond with an answer about that last point.

Tellingly, you don't find anything from the manufacturers about the injury rates experienced from their keyboards. Now if this were computer keyboards in the 1990s, and musicians or keyboard manufacturers had any money to speak of (neither do), there would have been piles and piles of lawsuits, as there were. It's not that there isn't a good deal of research done on the subject. It's just that they'd prefer that you don't read about it before buying, just like IBM, Compaq and Dell.

Had you even been born then? And by the way, I think Keith Emmerson would argue the point with you, considering he got epicondylitis rather badly that became dystonia from playing mostly electronic keyboards. And the list goes on and on and...


Edited by laguna_greg (09/06/13 10:11 PM)
Edit Reason: thought of something
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2145535 - 09/07/13 12:57 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: laguna_greg]
The Monkeys Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 442
Loc: Vancouver BC
Originally Posted By: laguna_greg
It is possible to use the grand action in the most efficient way possible, where the least amount of neuromuscular, metabolic energy can expended to produce the most amount of effect, provided that the keystroke timing is performed correctly.


Greg, are you saying that even a baby grand would be better than ANY upright?

Top
#2145566 - 09/07/13 02:24 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 1382
Loc: guess where in CA and WA
Actually, as I've posted previously, the well regulated upright action successfully mimics the grand action in every respect except speed of response. It's a little slower than the grand action because of its design limitations. But nothing that the player cannot adjust to easily.
_________________________
Laguna Greg

1919 Mason & Hamlin AA
1931 Bechstein C - now sold
http://www.triangleassociates-us.com/about_us (my day job)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Taubman (a recent article I wrote about one of my teachers)

Top
#2145588 - 09/07/13 03:33 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
landorrano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2472
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys
when the mind controlled piano becomes the norm, my son tells his grandson the good old days : "do you know once a upon a time, pianos have keys.....". I probably won't see that day, might be it is a good thing?!


Maybe, but I'll bet that your great-grandson, doing his space-scales up on planet Virtuelle, will have an old-fashioned whistle attached to his utility belt ! Rendez-vous in 2075!

Top
#2146607 - 09/08/13 08:31 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: TimR]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3250
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: TimR
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
Originally Posted By: TimR
It can't be a huge advantage on any acoustic - there just isn't enough cushion on the damper nor time between notes - even assuming you don't pedal.

Actually, there is, and because of it, this is one of the important differences between artistically musical playing and amateur playing. Many artists pick up on it, without formal training, because, well, they're geniuses. The rest of us rely on someone teaching us to be aware of and how to control this in our playing.


I will "listen with big ears" for this.


I played the church's three acoustic pianos today listening for this. (I was there anyway preparing music for the coming handbell choir season).

I had hoped to listen to one of the accomplished players, but the services had only pipe organ.

At any rate, I listened carefully while lifting the keys. All three of the acoustics had damper engagements very similar to that of my old digital - very short distance from full release to full damping. The piano whose tone I like the best (but gets played the least due to location) had the damper engagement at about the same distance from bottom of the key as my digital. The other two pianos were both higher, and the one I liked the least did not engage any damper until almost the very top of travel.

I could shape the notes a little bit on any of them, roughly the same as I can on the digital. It isn't a huge amount, but it does add something to the tone sensation.

Using the damper pedal was much different. There is a large difference between full damper and partial damper that I could not duplicate with finger damper alone. Some of that may be due to string resonances. There were also extreme differences between the three pianos on how well that worked and could be controlled. This level of pedal control is not present on my older digital. I understand that partial pedal is something that has been improved on more modern digitals but I've not had much experience with it.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#2146706 - 09/09/13 12:52 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: landorrano]
The Monkeys Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 442
Loc: Vancouver BC
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys
when the mind controlled piano becomes the norm, my son tells his grandson the good old days : "do you know once a upon a time, pianos have keys.....". I probably won't see that day, might be it is a good thing?!


Maybe, but I'll bet that your great-grandson, doing his space-scales up on planet Virtuelle, will have an old-fashioned whistle attached to his utility belt ! Rendez-vous in 2075!


Well 70 years from now is 2085.... Sure by all means, only if I can live that long (or the earth can last that long)

Top
#2146708 - 09/09/13 01:05 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: TimR]
The Monkeys Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 442
Loc: Vancouver BC
Originally Posted By: TimR
This level of pedal control is not present on my older digital. I understand that partial pedal is something that has been improved on more modern digitals but I've not had much experience with it.


From a 5 year old digital's manual :

Quote:

Key-Off samples provide the delicate sound keys make when they are released. Stereo Sustain samples recreate the resonances of strings and soundboard when the damper pedal is pressed. String Resonance samples provided the rich tones produced when one hammered string causes related strings to ring out in harmony. Using these comprehensive gradations, CLP300 Series models can realistically reproduce the complex sounds of a grand piano.


I think makers of digital actually knew something about this, and have tried.



Top
#2146721 - 09/09/13 02:19 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5431
Loc: Europe
Personally, in this day and place (Greece) I recommend my student's parents to check out digital pianos, if they can't afford an acoustic one. Their usability surpasses that of an acoustic piano, when we're talking about teenagers ready to start exploring the world of computer music. Plus it's much much cheaper, portable, and easier to dispose of actually...

The downside is that since it's a digital machine, in will be outdated pretty quickly, that's it's actually NOT a real piano (which is a real shame) and ultimately that it loses value over time...
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#2146735 - 09/09/13 03:29 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: Nikolas]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Personally, in this day and place (Greece) I recommend my student's parents to check out digital pianos, if they can't afford an acoustic one. Their usability surpasses that of an acoustic piano, when we're talking about teenagers ready to start exploring the world of computer music. Plus it's much much cheaper, portable, and easier to dispose of actually...

The downside is that since it's a digital machine, in will be outdated pretty quickly, that's it's actually NOT a real piano (which is a real shame) and ultimately that it loses value over time...

Nikolas, your thoughts (as so often is true) are very close to my own. smile

I have a digital and love using it when I have the energy and will power because it allows me to work late at night, when everyone else is asleep.

In a perfect world we would all have perfect instruments and would have the space, freedom and privacy to play them 24/7. But that's just not my world, and it is not the world of many people I like the best.
_________________________
Piano Teacher

Top
#2146798 - 09/09/13 08:04 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
Ken Knapp Offline



Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 2278
Loc: Pennsylvania
Back when I was in high school, I wanted to learn how to play piano. We had no piano at home and my dad didn't want to get one. Nor did he want to pay for lessons.

One day the band teacher told me that he would teach me piano if I desired. But how would I practice? I solved the problem by using the acoustic in the music room and the piano lab in the other music room (Wurlitzer Electric Pianos). I would go and practice, usually during study halls.

This lasted about 3 months, until the principal discovered what I was doing and put the kibash on it - she wanted study hall time used for studies. So I had no choice but to stop. In that time I went through three method books. Until the day he died, the band teacher would tell people how proud he was of the progress I made.

I can't help but to wonder what would have happened if I had available to me one of today's digitals.. digital piano, keyboard, anything.. Back when I had the time and did not have to worry about my time being consumed by working to pay bills..

I've seen families opt out of lessons for their kids because a teacher told them acoustic or nothing. I've seen students get discouraged and quit because their instrument was a piece of junk that wouldn't hold a tune or regulation and was no joy to play. Often for the same money a parent can get a student a low cost digital that is always in tune and does not have regulation troubles that the alternative would have.

No matter how much talent a student may have, the desire is often to play for enjoyment or to be in some band - heck, playing in a band might just require knowing three chords.. laugh
_________________________
Ken

Piano Organ Depot
http://www.pianoorgandepot.com
Hammond Organ Technician
http://www.tonewheeltech.com
Vice President - MITA, International
http://www.mitatechs.org
http://www.facebook.com/MITATechs

Top
#2146809 - 09/09/13 08:31 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3250
Loc: Virginia, USA
The risk of injury is clearly higher from an acoustic - if you try to move it! I'm no longer available to help friends move a piano, having done it a few too many times.

Playing piano is risky too. The body was not designed to sit, in a fixed position, for hours at a time making thousands of repetitive motions. Injury rates for serious students on acoustic pianos run around 80%. The more hours you put in on any repetitive activity, the more chance of hurting yourself. There isn't any evidence that digitals are better or worse, just speculation. Currently digitals outsell acoustics 4 or 5 to 1, but I would imagine the more serious students are most likely using acoustics.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#2146914 - 09/09/13 12:17 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11855
Loc: Canada
I was without a piano for 35 years, and had no way of getting one. Finally a "toy" was passed on to me - keys as light as those on a computer keyboard, no touch sensitivity, not enough of them. It was one step up from practising on a cardboard with notes drawn on it and humming. laugh Then I got a digital which was acce$$ible for I think $700. Any note below middle C was double loud, so that I learned to sort of "cringe with the left hand". But at least I could do dynamics. Then finally I got my "entry level" Yamaha. The keys feel much more like an acoustic. In fact, there was an acoustic in the store that I could have gotten for the same price, but - regardless of who played it in the store - it went from loud to louder. The touch and responsiveness of my digital were superior to those of that acoustic. Plus, there is no way that I could actually practice any length of time, given the thin walls and neighbours.

My posts here should indicate that I am dead serious as a student. Unfortunately top pianos are tied to the pocketbook, while dedication has no correlation to the pocketbook.

In an ideal world, the teacher who knows something and wants to teach it, would match up to the student who wants to learn that something and is ready to absorb it, and the availability of the instrument best suited to both. How it's been arranged in our universe, however, is a huge practical joke where any of these three, or all of them, get scattered, and somebody is just killing himself laughing as we scramble. Or else it is a "character creating exercise" because we have not been handed the cards we need, and we should say "thank you".

Top
#2146934 - 09/09/13 12:40 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
The Monkeys Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 442
Loc: Vancouver BC
Greg, talking about injury, I am still curious if you have converted the recovered pop, jazz players to acoustic or they have learned a way to continue with the keyboard without hurting themselves.

Even on today's entry level digitals, the touch is weighted and very sensitive (or can be adjusted to very sensitive). I was able to play them with very light touches, not feeling much of the "bottom bounce" feeling with some decent speed. Actions on some (poorly maintained?) acoustics can be very heavy, and require much more effort on my fingers, and I can't play as fast, not with the same light touches.

One presumed benefit of acoustic over keyboard is that acoustic builds "finger strength", but would that also increase the chance of injury?

Or it is the "fortissimo should feel pianissimo" technique makes everything effortless on the fingers? Is that technique not possible to acquire from or apply to a digital at all?

Top
#2146956 - 09/09/13 01:19 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: keystring]
The Monkeys Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 442
Loc: Vancouver BC
Originally Posted By: keystring
Then I got a digital which was acce$$ible for I think $700. Any note below middle C was double loud, so that I learned to sort of "cringe with the left hand". But at least I could do dynamics.


I suspect this is a while ago. The price for entry level digitals from many big name makers, including yamaha, has dropped to $700 level. With a 2 year payment term, it is accessible to virtually every household in the 'developed" countries. Hopefully no longer any one is denied the opportunity of learning music due to lack of access to an instrument.

If the instrument is a piano or not, is a secondary question one, compare to the accessibility to an instrument.

Nevertheless, from the video of the opening thread, while not the same, they sounded pretty close to me, especially considering the 25+ times price differences.

And once again, the question was not that if a digital is a substitute of a good grand, we all know it is not.

The better the instrument, the better for the student, we all know that too.

When one has to make a compromise, is that really an acoustic of "any kind or condition" is better than any digital?
Even in 2013?
Even after watching the video in the opening thread?


By the way,

Originally Posted By: Nikolas
if they can't afford an acoustic one


There is no such a thing as can't afford an acoustic, not in North America. Visit Craiglist you can find a free (or almost free) acoustic piano, working one, as long as you are willing to move it.


Edited by The Monkeys (09/09/13 02:22 PM)

Top
Page 3 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >

Moderator:  Ken Knapp 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
Christmas Lights at Piano World Headquarters in Maine 2014
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
CP50 noisy key...
by G. Bonner
12/22/14 12:30 PM
Partial versus Full Regulation
by MusicMagellan
12/22/14 12:22 PM
Knabe WG48 Opinions?
by stevetothink
12/22/14 10:58 AM
More instruments via MIDI?
by badbob001
12/22/14 10:42 AM
Xmas present
by Jytte
12/22/14 09:29 AM
Forum Stats
77391 Members
42 Forums
160054 Topics
2350510 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission