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Topic Options
#2149087 - 09/12/13 10:51 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: StarvingLion]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5934
Loc: Down Under
Hey, Starving Lion, you might get more of a reaction back at the Digital Piano board. Apparently they miss you!
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#2149109 - 09/12/13 11:38 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: StarvingLion]
LesCharles73 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 739
Loc: Denton Texas
Originally Posted By: StarvingLion
I cannot fathom why the apathetic acoustic pianists here put up with this digital fake piano madness.


Easy. Because you don't have a choice smile
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Les C Deal





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#2149130 - 09/13/13 12:22 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5265
Loc: Europe
haha... a troll that's against digital technology!?!? That's quite weird... grin
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http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2149222 - 09/13/13 06:24 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
Eddyaknow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/29/13
Posts: 52
I'm sorry I know I'm new here and inexperienced but some of the posts on here sound ridiculous to me. Like something along the lines :"if you can't afford a grand, then don't bother at all to even try to play".
I have NO doubt that no digital can even come close to an acoustic piano and all of you have probably been handling pianos longer than I lived.
But seriously a decent modern digital is better than no instrument at all..
Besides I have read about a concert pianist who plays mostly on his digital piano because he practices at night and doesn't want to disturb anybody i think he's been doing it for years so are you telling me there is NO WAY to use a digital piano seriously ?

And when have you tried playing your last dpiano in person ?


Edited by Eddyakmow (09/13/13 06:24 AM)

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#2149230 - 09/13/13 06:48 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5265
Loc: Europe
Eddy: You are 100% correct as far as I'm concerned! I agree (and I think we all agree) that acoustic piano > digital piano. Now the question digital piano > nothing is what some people are debating, but for me it's very very obvious that it stands true: A DP is better than no piano at all.

Don't mind the various trolls lioning about...
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http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2149273 - 09/13/13 08:10 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
Marco M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/12
Posts: 451
Loc: Europe
For me the most important question remains, how or how much do I suffer constraints in learning on a digital piano a proper keystroke technique as it should be used for elsewhere playing a grand piano.

Out of doubt, to color the tone nicely is a top level skill in playing a piano.
Good artists to certain extend can obviously do so even on a digital piano, that´s what i.e. the video in the initial post suggests.

But does the artist color the tone on that digital piano as nicely as the same artist could shape it on the grand piano? And would this artist playing the grand piano envolve for this any technique beyond the one used for playing the digital?

There is from time out of mind discussion and even scientific investigation taking place, which tries to engage the mechanical connection between the keystroke and the tone, and as far as I could read about it, it is (in my understanding) unlikely to be explained by the hammer movement alone, but more likely depends on the way the damper is lifted before/upon/after a certain hammer activation became initiated. While the hammer speed is nowadays well taken into acount in the tone generation of modern digitals, and applicable keystroke technique in this regard should be the same at a digital and acoustic instrument, is the damper action considered in sufficient detail as well?

Highspeed videos of an acoustic grand piano´s mechanics proof how the release of the hammer and the lifting of the damper depend on different phases of the keystroke and thus tone will be shaped not only by the momentum of the hammer release, but much by the damper activity manipulated continously throughout the full key movement applied by the artist.

I therefore would like to know, if the modern digital emulation of grand piano mechanics senses sufficient characteristics of my keystroke to let me fully learn the keystroke movements, or if important parts of it will be missed. Will I learn on my digital to color tone, or will I significantly miss to learn necessary technique for doing so?

Maybe I before should have already articulated my question as clear, instead of trying to only provocate the answering arguments. As nobody so far brought up such answering argument, I could understand this as a confirmation that modern digital piano technology indeed takes into account the full character of the keystroke as professional artist can apply it, or I could understand this as a confirmation that the ones who favour exclusively the fully mechanic acoustic instrument do not really know about the real possibilies of a modern digital instrument, or I could understand this the way that damper activity in a digital is very sloppy respected and I am just too unexperienced to hear it and ask for something what others do not even want to answer anymore.

I do not know the answer, and therefore would still wellcome factual arguments from someone who might know. This is why I allowed myself to join this thread on the TEACHERS board, and do not ask this anywhere else: I would like to learn about facts, staying away from subjective guesses or convictions based on technology enthusiasm or technology rejection.

Does the modern digital piano allow to fully learn keystroke technique, and if not, what exactly would hamper it?
_________________________
learning Piano on my Roland HP-505
before playing Drums in adults bluesband on handpicked set; before crashing E-Guitar in kids garage band; raised on home entertainment Organ and Keyboard models Eminent Solina P240, Farfisa Maharani 259R, Technics KN800, and on Mouth Organ, Recorder and Accordion

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#2167151 - 10/16/13 11:46 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
missbelle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/24/12
Posts: 88
Loc: USA
Looking at this thread from a teacher of beginning students perspective,
many of us will run into the, "we will see how lessons go before we get a 'real' keyboard, whether piano or good digital."

So, our students have something dug up from last century, with no weighted keys, or even full sized keys, and no pedals.

and the first 5-10 minutes of lesson are filled with learning the touch and feel and look of a "real" piano, and working on dynamics and hand positioning, because the work done at home on the toy must be re-learned to fit the real piano.

With the low-cost of rentals, and the number of piano posting on Craig's List, there is really no excuse to get something relatively ok!

If you can afford lessons, then you need to have the correct instrument.

A recorder is not a clarinet. A pair of socks is not a ballet slipper. A whiffer ball bat is not a baseball bat. A scooter is not a motorcycle.

Those items may get you interested, but once you begin to take lessons, hire a coach, join a team, then you need the correct equipment.

Just a few days ago, I had a mom that sits in on lessons come to the revelation, "Oh, my child struggles with dynamics because our keyboard does not let that happen without changing the volume buttons. Maybe we should look into a real piano for Christmas!"

Ad I smiled.
That's one that "gets it."

If only they all would!

"I want my child to succeed, but will not practice with them or get them the proper equipment, and will not review the work."

Use it for baseball, karate, football, piano, dance, whatever.

Life lesson that some never learn, and instead blame changing interests, poor coach/teacher, no time, etc...

Not that a grand piano will make them a music master, but...you will play the game longer and get more out of it!!
_________________________
Learning as I teach.

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#2167168 - 10/16/13 12:25 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: missbelle]
The Monkeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 427
Loc: Vancouver BC
Missbelle,

Did you watch the video on the opening post?

No one here would disagree with you that a toy keyboard is no good, and probably everyone shared your frustration.

But it is not what this thread was about at all. The questions was if today's digital piano a valid learning instrument.

Many piano teachers put digital piano into the toy category, I was just wondering if that was a conscious evaluation after playing today's digital, or it was based on impressions of the toy keyboards, and possibly as as you said, from the last century.

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#2167183 - 10/16/13 12:44 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: missbelle]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11690
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: missbelle

A recorder is not a clarinet. A pair of socks is not a ballet slipper. A whiffer ball bat is not a baseball bat. A scooter is not a motorcycle.

Just a small side issue. This reminds me of the old Sesame Street game, "One of these things does not belong here." recorder, socks, whiffer ball bat, scooter.

A recorder is not a toy. It is a musical instrument. Unfortunately it is treated like a toy and "taught" in primary school like a toy. As a primitive Baroque instrument it is tricky to keep it in tune and get a good tone on all notes, and the notes that you can get are limited.

I thought this was off topic when I started writing, but in fact it isn't. A recorder is the opposite of electronic toy pianos. What you do physically affects the sound that you produce so you're working with instrument, technique, listening skills, and self discipline.

Before going on to our regularly scheduled program, here is an amazing recorder player playing the solo of a Vivaldi concerto on recorder. (In my stack I have a series of Handel concertos that are written for "violin, alto recorder, or flute").


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#2167706 - 10/17/13 01:21 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
missbelle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/24/12
Posts: 88
Loc: USA
I bet his recorder was not bulk ordered at $2.50 a piece!
(and WOW at minute 9-10, to the end, better than a bird song!)(And you see him w.o.r.k.i.n.g. and enjoying the work)

That kind of reinforces my point-some people just do not realize/detect/care about the value of a good instrument/equipment, PLUS the work and dedication.

You can have the best instrument ever, but if you never use it, it is nothing more than furniture.

This current era of digital keyboards is full of wonderful options that provide great opportunities for students and teachers.

But some parents think all you need is some sort of keyboard, any keyboard, and a teacher, and the child will become a musician.

Ultimately, it takes practice and work. And if 1/3 of my lesson time is spent acclimating a student to a "real" piano, then they are getting time lost on lessons, and thus slower progress.

So when the student decides it is too much work to practice, the parent may not realize the circa 1990 keyboard was a factor.

(or, the iphone piano app. I actually had a girl tell me that is how she practiced. She was level one, and spent half her lesson saying, "I don't get it!")

I had to go out to the parent and show me the app, and then brought him (dad) into the room to compare it to a piano. He thought that his iphone was a good plan, ans was slightly annoyed when I asked that his daughter PRACTICE on a piano, and PLAY on his phone.

Only had access to a piano at grandparents house, and illness lessened days visiting there.

Anyway,
All that to say, I am fine with a full-sized key, weighted keys, with pedal, preferably 88 keys instrument.

smile
_________________________
Learning as I teach.

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#2167719 - 10/17/13 02:02 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: missbelle]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11690
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: missbelle
I bet his recorder was not bulk ordered at $2.50 a piece!
(and WOW at minute 9-10, to the end, better than a bird song!)(And you see him w.o.r.k.i.n.g. and enjoying the work)

That kind of reinforces my point-some people just do not realize/detect/care about the value of a good instrument/equipment, PLUS the work and dedication.

You can have the best instrument ever, but if you never use it, it is nothing more than furniture.

You don't want to see my plastic tenor recorder, which I got for $5.00 from a garage sale. wink It was originally school issue, and is exactly like a giant version of the little plastic descant recorder - hones throughout. The winning combination is decent instrument, decent teaching, decent practising. Sometimes only one or two of the three is available.
Quote:
....
Ultimately, it takes practice and work. And if 1/3 of my lesson time is spent acclimating a student to a "real" piano, then they are getting time lost on lessons, and thus slower progress.

So when the student decides it is too much work to practice, the parent may not realize the circa 1990 keyboard was a factor.

(or, the iphone piano app. I actually had a girl tell me that is how she practiced. She was level one, and spent half her lesson saying, "I don't get it!")

!!! shocked
Quote:


All that to say, I am fine with a full-sized key, weighted keys, with pedal, preferably 88 keys instrument.

That definitely makes sense.

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#2167729 - 10/17/13 02:26 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: missbelle]
The Monkeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 427
Loc: Vancouver BC
Originally Posted By: missbelle
(or, the iphone piano app. I actually had a girl tell me that is how she practiced. She was level one, and spent half her lesson saying, "I don't get it!")

Ouch..

Well, tell the dad that, in order to minimize the difference between the teaching instrument and practice instrument, so the girl is not confused, from now on, you would have the lessons on the dad's iPhone. And remember to switch it to the airplane mode so the lesson is not interrupted.

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#2167884 - 10/17/13 09:53 PM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
missbelle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/24/12
Posts: 88
Loc: USA
Oh snap!
ha laugh

That is something I will log into my memory banks.
I can only imagine playing a duet with her- and this was a phone, not a tablet!

Thanks for the chuckle.

As for the actual topic, I had a beginning student just today that was obviously practiced, and knew the vocab and fingerings, but was struggling with forte and piano.

Then she said that on her keyboard, she has a button that she pushes for loud, and then she turns it off for soft.

So I let her go crazy on the piano and play patterns up and down, as loud and then as soft as she could, and I even tossed in pedal! She really had a blast, and she felt and heard the difference.

I spoke to mom after lesson and she said they might be getting a piano later...
(come on, Santa!!)
_________________________
Learning as I teach.

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#2168868 - 10/20/13 10:33 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
malkin Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 2554
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
For me, the DP was a gateway drug.
_________________________
A good student is one who makes the teacher feel like a good teacher.

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#2168872 - 10/20/13 10:36 AM Re: Did you expect this? [Re: The Monkeys]
Alan Lai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 309
Loc: USA/Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys
While we have one thread talking about the grand, let's see the other end of the spectrum.

Casio commercial for their sub $1000 digital piano:
http://youtu.be/u37Wb66CDTU
(fast forward to 2:20 if you are in a hurry)

It is a commercial of course, and to be fair, it didn't actually make any conclusion, although it obviously implied one.

The question is, while I am sure you can hear the differences, but did you expect this from an inexpensive digital?

Is today's digital a valid learning/practicing instrument?


Didn't read the rest of the replies, but regarding the OP:

The Casio DP sounds cheap and lifeless. The grand sounds, well, like a grand piano.

Today's digital IS a valid learning/practicing instrument, but not this sub $1000 one.

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